Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Deuce11 wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Dude, if we gave a modern computer to the people of the 1930's, do you think they'd be able to reverse engineer it? They'd figure out the thing runs on sand, and they might even get to the desktop, but that's about it. It'd go waaaay over their heads.

Reverse engineering more advanced technology is soft sci-fi. Only GRIMDARK fiction is allowed.

HUH? How can you reverse engineer tech of the future? That is actual engineering haha. To use your own analogy, we are not giving a modern computer to people of the 1930's we are giving the printing press to people of 21st Century! If the Imperium can manufacture Speeders and Titans and teleportation technology than they still have the capacity to understand the engineering behind a jetbike.

You're not understanding.

It doesn't matter that they have the technology to reproduce it.

To find out what is used in making it, the original would have to be taken apart. To do so is considered heresy and punishable by death. The Adeptus Mechanicus will not tolerate the taking apart/damaging Standard Template Constructors or any form of ancient relic that has survived the Dark Age of Technology.

Except the Baal predator was reverse engineered by the blood angels and built en masse and the faster engine was put in all the other vehicles. I am pretty sure the Dark Angels will be able to do the same with the jetbike

Since when was the Baal Predator "reverse engineered"?

The Blood Angels found the STC for it.
The Blood Angels then took the STC back to Baal and set up shop there, producing it only for themselves and their Successor Chapters.
Not giving the STC over is bad, sure--but I'd love to see the Ad. Mech tell the Blood Angels to fork over a revered Chapter relic.

Minor tampering and upgrades are generally overlooked(a lot of the Baneblade/Shadowsword variants are the results of this as is the Thunderer siege tank) or just accepted based on their effectiveness.

Read the fluff for the lucifer engine. They reverse engineered it from the Baal Predator

Is that in the new Codex? Because the old I've got sitting in front of me mentions nothing of it.

Page 36
"Furthermore, the Baal Predator was also capable of much greater speed and manoeuverability than previous iterations - a trait whole-heartedly embraced by the Blood Angels and ultimately reverse-engineered and applied to many of the Chapter's other tanks by its Techmarines"

Is that the new one or not?

Is that the new one or not?

My apologies, for some reason I thought you said you have the new one sitting in front of you. I was quoting the new codex

Okay then.

So they reverse engineered just the engine?

After holding the STC plans just for themselves?

Because that pretty much was the whole "Let's see the AM tell the Blood Angels to give it up" point

Well from a justification of the Jetbikes being built by the dark angels , it has created a 'fluff' precedent. But I think the AM should go to war with the blood angels. They would crush them. Then all space marines can have fast rhinos.

The jetbikes weren't built by the Dark Angels though.

The jetbikes were built by the AM during/prior to the Horus Heresy.
During the HH, the STC was destroyed/lost.

That's the difference between the two, mate. Baal Predators can be mass produced, courtesy of the fact that there is a STC in existence for them. They can be scrapped and rebuilt if a part is finnicky or put in wrong when putting it back together.

If the jetbikes are taken apart and futzed with? There's a chance they'll be rendered as nothing but an ornate piece of salvage.

Well the STC for the Stormraven was 'found' in a back room on Mars, so the Tower of Angels has alot of locked room just ripe for STC discovery

Yeah, but we really don't need jetbikes out and about again.

The fact that the Master of the Ravenwing has the last surviving Imperial Jetbike is what makes him so uniquely special.

Yeah, but we really don't need jetbikes out and about again.

The fact that the Master of the Ravenwing has the last surviving Imperial Jetbike is what makes him so uniquely special.

If the idea of ravenwing jetbikes flying around leaves you flaccid, then Dark Angels are not the army for you

Need jetbikes? No...Want jetbikes? Hell to the yeah!

A unit of jetbikes would be extremely awesome, unique, and fluffy for the Dark Angels. They would be like the Ravenwing Company Veterans.

Volkov wrote:

Yeah, but we really don't need jetbikes out and about again.

The fact that the Master of the Ravenwing has the last surviving Imperial Jetbike is what makes him so uniquely special.

If the idea of Ravenwing jetbikes flying around leaves you flaccid, then Ravenwing is not the sub-army for you

Fix't.

I'm in it for Deathwing.

I am in it for the Ravenwing, and the plasma...and the jawa...and the S6 power weapon, oh and the Standard of Devastation. Emperor bless the Standard of devastation!

I do have a copious amount of Deathwing and I certainly have played them alot, but I just love my Ravenwing.

Have you ever played ravenwing versus deathwing? that is one interesting match.

I hope in the next DA book, they achieve a nice harmony between ravenwing, deathwing and normalwing. I also hope that it isn't overly fantastic like the current BA book (imagines scary FNP ravenwing rush lists)

candy.man wrote:I also hope that it isn't overly fantastic like the current BA book (imagines scary FNP ravenwing rush lists)

I want overly fantastic FNP ravenwing...that'd be SWEET!

But seriously...i hope as much attention is given to the DA as was given to the SW, BA, and the (im guessing) soon-to-be BT codexes. For too long the Dark Angels have had the crappiest of all the marine codexes. I want to see a fluffy but still competitive codex, with an equal emphasis on Deathwing, Ravenwing, and standard marines. That'd be the kicker wouldn't it? Our current codex makes people want to run purely RW/DW forces. I hope the next codex honestly makes me want to play normal DA marines in addition to my DW/RW.

The problem for the DA codex is that they already gave away a lot of what made the DA codex unique. Deathwing was the only way to have a terminator army, now there is Loganwing. Ravenwing was the only all biker army, now there is C:SM with Biker Captains. So, after that what is special about DA other than fluff?

DA will boil down to how creative and how far they want to push the envelope. How many new SM units will make their way into it?

SM chapters are a revolving door of crap. One book gets something new, and the following ones will most likely get it too, in addition to their new stuff.


Oh, and PLEASE, no FNP spamming. It's already gone too far with BA.

The problem for the DA codex is that they already gave away a lot of what made the DA codex unique. Deathwing was the only way to have a terminator army, now there is Loganwing. Ravenwing was the only all biker army, now there is C:SM with Biker Captains. So, after that what is special about DA other than fluff?

DA will boil down to how creative and how far they want to push the envelope. How many new SM units will make their way into it?

SM chapters are a revolving door of crap. One book gets something new, and the following ones will most likely get it too, in addition to their new stuff.


Oh, and PLEASE, no FNP spamming. It's already gone too far with BA.

I agree with most of what you said. Dark Angels need to be made to stand out even more, which is why I really like the idea of turning them into a gunline marine army simply because its a niche that space marines haven't yet filled. Sure there is razorback spam/long fang spam, but that is just the same two units

As for feel no pain. I think its absurd that it is being handed out like candy. Some armies have no problem dealing with it, but armies reliant on volume of wounds get majorly hosed

Volkov wrote:

The problem for the DA codex is that they already gave away a lot of what made the DA codex unique. Deathwing was the only way to have a terminator army, now there is Loganwing. Ravenwing was the only all biker army, now there is C:SM with Biker Captains. So, after that what is special about DA other than fluff?

DA will boil down to how creative and how far they want to push the envelope. How many new SM units will make their way into it?

SM chapters are a revolving door of crap. One book gets something new, and the following ones will most likely get it too, in addition to their new stuff.


Oh, and PLEASE, no FNP spamming. It's already gone too far with BA.

I agree with most of what you said. Dark Angels need to be made to stand out even more, which is why I really like the idea of turning them into a gunline marine army simply because its a niche that space marines haven't yet filled. Sure there is razorback spam/long fang spam, but that is just the same two units

As for feel no pain. I think its absurd that it is being handed out like candy. Some armies have no problem dealing with it, but armies reliant on volume of wounds get majorly hosed

I'd prefer it if they weren't a gunline and rather an army that excels at shooting. DA were (I might be wrong) the most tactical of the legions because of L. Johnson's abilities. I'd almost like it if they had an almost Eldar playstyle. Where you use a certain unit for a certain task, instead of this 'do it all' marine mentality. Which might not be possible, but it'd be cool. Perhaps giving Tacticals an ability that twin-links bolters or something that would make it so you're wasting a big ability if you're in CC.

As for CC, DW should just be monsters compared to other Terminators. I'd like to see Relic Blades or, perhaps the 'OG' relic blade - the Black Sword as an option. Imagine 2+3++ str.6

Just my thoughts anyway.

hy guys...
I hope you will excuse my poor english...

I find an intersting discussion here and the proposals for DW and RW... they're amazing but I think we should keep in mind tha game balnce

I Like to imagine DA as grim stubborn warriors, that advance in the battlefield with determination... The rule "slow and purposeful" is perfect for this, i imagine.

I think DA vets should be normal vets with slow and purposeful and the option to have 2 heavy weapons and some other nice stuff...

And maybe HQ powers could be to improve their movement...I don't know... Chaplains allow you to ignore the slow and purposeful rule when you want and masters allow to roll 3 dices for movement instead of 2? ... oh and the vets should be stubborn, of course and maybe a 5++ save given by one of the keepers (is it broken?)
Gw already used this approach with Legion of damned so it doesn't seem a bad idea to me...

for the DW I think they should be a little better than normal termies... A wolf-guard style unit composition? it relfectsthe fact their equipment is ncient and strange... and maybe they scatter 1 d6 because of the better mastery of ancient technology...

To enphasize the tactical aspect of the chapter I'd like to see fun rules for flanking with the ravenwing and coordinated teleports with the deathwing and maybe devastators that split fire (come on... if that stupid Viking/indians/lycantropes can, why DA shouldn't?)


I don't think DA should have melee monsters units (such as 3++ DW termies ) it just isn't their gameplay...

For the jetbikes... they would be terribly funny, but they just aren't fair ... there aren't minis and eldar players will be annoyed... leave them the jetbikes come on....

Technically, the oldest Marine codex right now is Daemonhunters, not Dark Angels.

I think a better thing to ask - rather than "should tactical squads be allowed two heavy weapons?" - is "how can we make Dark Angels more shooty without encouraging further Razorback-spam lists?"

Volkov wrote:

The problem for the DA codex is that they already gave away a lot of what made the DA codex unique. Deathwing was the only way to have a terminator army, now there is Loganwing. Ravenwing was the only all biker army, now there is C:SM with Biker Captains. So, after that what is special about DA other than fluff?

DA will boil down to how creative and how far they want to push the envelope. How many new SM units will make their way into it?

SM chapters are a revolving door of crap. One book gets something new, and the following ones will most likely get it too, in addition to their new stuff.


Oh, and PLEASE, no FNP spamming. It's already gone too far with BA.

I agree with most of what you said. Dark Angels need to be made to stand out even more, which is why I really like the idea of turning them into a gunline marine army simply because its a niche that space marines haven't yet filled. Sure there is razorback spam/long fang spam, but that is just the same two units

As for feel no pain. I think its absurd that it is being handed out like candy. Some armies have no problem dealing with it, but armies reliant on volume of wounds get majorly hosed

The above quotes bring me back to my original point yet again. DA has been covered by the nilla dex. Get over it. If I were a DA player I'd be pummeling GW with emails for a simple PDF to work in conjunction with the nilla dex that provides DA Special Characters and gives some chapter tactics and special DA/DW abilities.

What should the Dark Angels get? About two pages of wonky special rules, a few Darkly McDarkenstein VonDark the Third (dark) special characters and, I dunno, Dark Plasmaguns or something in the space marines codex.

It would save so much time and effort to just admit it. Time and effort that can go into armies that actually play differently than one more batch of power armor/bolter/chainsword guys.

ok... I'd love also a simple add-on to vanilla marines codex...
but... for god's sake.... GIVE IT TO US!!! At least something like that!
" pages would be enough for the worst problems... Storm shields,Hq stats and eternal warrior rules, machine spirit...

Characterising DA definitely isn't hard...

Frankly I find the notion of the DA being added to the vanilla marine dex insulting to the highest degree. Having been a DA player since 3rd edition and read every book in which theyve even been mentioned, I disagree whole-heartedly about them being added to the vanilla dex. The fact that their current codex is nothing but a pale version of the C:SM codex should suggest that they be given the same amount of attention as the BA, and SW. They deserve their own codex, sure their current one is bland, but if you'll remember back the the BA PDF, they were pretty bland too. Now they've got Deep-Striking landraiders, librarian dreadnoughts, and completely unique and utterly fluffy lists compared to their 4th ed pdf. The same should happen for the DA. I honestly think all the "just add em to the vanilla marine 'dex" talk is stemming out of the fact that their current dex is bland. Their refusal to accept any help, unless it's completely unavoidable, combined with their loner nature, means that it doesnt make any sense for them to be in the C:SM. They are supposed to be just as unique an army as the BA, GW just refuses to do them justice.

They deserve their own codex. They NEED their own codex. Anything else is unacceptable, and any DA player worth a damn would agree with me.

final_boss325 wrote:Frankly I find the notion of the DA being added to the vanilla marine dex insulting to the highest degree. Having been a DA player since 3rd edition and read every book in which theyve even been mentioned, I disagree whole-heartedly about them being added to the vanilla dex. The fact that their current codex is nothing but a pale version of the C:SM codex should suggest that they be given the same amount of attention as the BA, and SW. They deserve their own codex, sure their current one is bland, but if you'll remember back the the BA PDF, they were pretty bland too. Now they've got Deep-Striking landraiders, librarian dreadnoughts, and completely unique and utterly fluffy lists compared to their 4th ed pdf. The same should happen for the DA. I honestly think all the "just add em to the vanilla marine 'dex" talk is stemming out of the fact that their current dex is bland. Their refusal to accept any help, unless it's completely unavoidable, combined with their loner nature, means that it doesnt make any sense for them to be in the C:SM. They are supposed to be just as unique an army as the BA, GW just refuses to do them justice.

They deserve their own codex. They NEED their own codex. Anything else is unacceptable, and any DA player worth a damn would agree with me.

Insulting to the highest degree?! Sheesh, its a game. I don't believe it, but I'll say they should be added to the Codex: Space Marines for the fun of it.

It's not so much that their current Codex is bland, it's just the Dark Angels don't seem that divergent. What are their main differences from Codex Marines?
- Deathwing
- Ravenwing
- Prevalence of ranged combat and plasma
- Interrogator Chaplains (who some have said shouldn't be on the field of battle)

that's roughly it. Blood Angels have:
- Red Thirst
- Close Combat
- Deep Strike
- Death Company
- Fast Vehicles
- Sanguinary Guard
- Baal Predator
- Storm Raven

Space wolves have:
- Counter-assault/true grit
- Close-quarters
- Lack of subtlety.
- Thunder wolf cavalry (facepalm)
- Wolf Scouts
- Blood Claws
- Long Fangs
- Lone Wolves
- Wolf Guard

In GAME TERMS (which is the main purpose of a Codex, to provide their game rules), I'd argue Dark Angels to be the least divergent.

I don't believe they should be in the 'nilla Codex, I don't believe they quite justify their own Codex either. To me, the lesser of the two evils would be getting their own Codex, but I feel they would do equally well with a PDF.
I do intend to try creating a Dark Angel fandex, but they really aren't that different from Codex marines.

Even so, just remember, there doesn't appear to be any intentions to redo them in the near future either.

As I said, IMO they shouldn't be lumped into the Codex: Space Marines, but they don't quite deserve their own Codex either. Which makes a tricky rock and hard place.