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With now the oldest marine codex - along with the Templars. I would like to discuss thoughts on Dark Angels being revisited.

Basics:

DAs used to be the least close combat specialised of the non-generic Marines. The old Stubborn made them tough to count on for assaulting but a very dependable firebase. They also were the only codex at one point that allowed heavy plasma in the tacticals.

Ravenwing and Deathwing allow for two very specialised army builds that used to be unique.

The later SM codex kind of usurped many of these specialization options and in many respects surpassed them with the options. I would like to see the new DA codex be more firepower oriented and not just another variation of a SM assault army. Let the BA. Templars and SWs be the assault oriented Marines.

1. Give DA the new stubborn as a baseline.
2. Discount plasma weapons 5 points for all of them. Makes them viable choice compared to meltas and potential different look & feel to DAs.
3. Give all Ravenwing bikes 2 base attacks. No Vanguard Vets - that is what the Ravenwing's purpose is in the DAs.
4. Keep Fearless for RW and DW.
5. Bring back hunt for the fallen. Perhaps Rage (toward HQs) by RW & DW with victory conditions changed to capturing/preserving the HQs.
6. Rather than sternguard - veteran squads with plasma upgrades maybe even leave as is but 3 modifications much more tame than sternguard options.
7. Revamp vehicles to new standards and costs. (No more second-rate Machine Spirit or overpriced vehicles)
8. Defensive/morale oriented psychic powers. Oh and librarians with 10 Ld. No more third-class librarians.
9. Sammael at least as valuable as Khan on a bike. (This is a joke right now. One is a force multiplier while Sammael is a lone character waiting to die.)
10. Scouts make them troops with new statlines. General beef - make Sniper Rifles a costed upgrade that includes +1 BS. SRs are truly worthless with BS 3.

Comments on these or other options. I don't want an overpowering uber Codex but something that flavors the DAs as not being just another variation of other SM.

I like everything you posted, except beefing up the Scouts. Their scouts shouldn't be any different than anyone else's. I really like the idea of Ravenwing as Vanguard Vets though. That's a cool idea.

Maybe somthing like the PAGK Fast Attack choice with the DW option.
I like the Plasma Options, mabye some Plasma Guns for HW choices.

I'd like to see SS go to a 3+ save all the time instead of 4+ in HtH.

Bringing up all the wargear to the new SM standard is a given.

I think the shooting aspect of the DA should be much more emphasized. Dark Angels shouldn't just be normal marines with deathwing and ravenwing. Especially since the new SM codex can basically make just that. Blood angels are the assault oriented chapter, SM are the all rounders, and Dark Angels can be the shooty chapter. Space Wolves are off doing their own thing...

My own ideas are something like this

-Play up the first legion heritage with more unique wargear. Squads of jetbikes should be a given. (The mechanicus can find blueprints to make more in the same room they found the Stormraven's) Conversion beamers as a heavy weapon upgrade or something equally temperamental and cooky. More types of space marine artillery

-Skilled riders back to the ravenwing. The best bikers in the galaxy shouldn't worry about driving over shrubbery

-Bring back the intractable rule (the 2nd version)

-Relentless assualt squads with bolters (I saw that BA death company can do this, and it gave me a hard on, but then I thought about how rage makes it worthless) Trying to de-emphasize assault within the DA

-Dark Angel Dreadnought having full range of weapons for their second arm. Possibly have to pay to upgrade it to a Dreadnought CCW. Again trying to emphasize shooting over assault

-Rather than sternguard or vanguard (who would all be deathwing) Give Ammo upgrade options to Deathwing or Ravenwing

-A Plasma Predator

-And finally either a second heavy weapon in tactical squads or devastators as troops

Basically the feel I trying to go for is a gunline Marine army. It's how I used to play them, and I think it would be a nice fit within the Marine line up

I like that Idea

Brother SRM wrote:I like everything you posted, except beefing up the Scouts. Their scouts shouldn't be any different than anyone else's. I really like the idea of Ravenwing as Vanguard Vets though. That's a cool idea.

Not true. Dark Angels utilize their Scouts in a similar role to the Raven Guard and Space Wolves in having actual Veteran Battle-Brothers in an insurgency and precision strike role, rather than the standard role we see in the Ultramarines and others of just being a place to park the newbies. I can see them being able to take something like a Scout unit called "Huntsmen" that are Veteran Battle-Brothers shedding their Power Armour for hunting the Fallen.

I think DA should have some sort of buff to their Tactical sqauds to encourage the shooting nature of the army. I thought about this recently and had an idea for a tactical squad like, if they are holding an objective they have twin-linked weapons, and may re-roll failed morale checks. As far as the Plasma guns go, make them 5pts with Melta, and have plasma cannons be a baseline choice for them; also maybe the option of two heavy weapons in their tacticals?

It'd be cool if they do split of DW terminators, and have one be assault and one tacticals, give the assault Terminators an option of Relic Blade + SS, that'd be AWESOME.

Since they are doing it with ASMs in BA, make DW terminators scatter 1d6 instead of 2.

Hunt for the fallen is a given, make an HQ count as an objective or an additional kill point.

Azreal should be a massive force. S7 sword, or something.

I was thinking it'd be really cool to give Librarians a power to make enemy models within a certain range re-roll all saves, morale, etc. I don't know why, but I picture DA Librarians as the strongest of all Librarians. Perhaps, Epostilaries get the Captain's statline with powers?

As far as scouts go, make them kind of like Sternguard. Give them ammo that affects their sniper. Like, possibly str.6 shots, or anti-vehicle ammo, ammo that causes people to blow up, kind of like the DE gun.

I am a little bias though, DA are my favorite chapter, ever since I was like 8.

Devestators as troops....

....I mean, WHY NOT?

Devestators as troops....

....I mean, WHY NOT?

I figured BA set the precedent with assault squads. There is no reason to take tactical squads in a BA army. But I haven't play tested devastators as troops so it may be ridiculously over-powered

I don't think it would be at the current points for the weapon, if you had 4 units of objective capturing Missile Launcher Devs you could pretty much wreck any army you come across.

If you wanted to fix tacticals, you could simply give them two special rules, Bolter Drill, and a rule that allows them to make a shooting round in response to another unit charging them. Somewhat like the Stand and Shoot response from Fantasy.

As for special options here is what I would wishlist:

Update codex to Space Marine vehicles and wargear.
I like the idea of double shooting weapon dreads, no Ironclads though.
I would take out the Crusader except for Terminator Dedicated Transport.
Remove both Vanguard and Sternguard vets, as well as scout bikes.
Return Scouts to Troops, have an upgradable character similar to the SM Scout Seargent in the form of Seargent Naaman (Or whatever his name is.)
Give Sammael a jetbike command squad or the ability to ditch his bike.
Give Ravenwing Skilled Rider and return Jink.
Give Deathwing the ability to choose options like Wolfguard, IE not standard Assault or regular Terminators.
Make Belial a fighty Character, Sammael a not so fighty slightly shooty character, Ezekiel the Libby from hell like every other chapter, and Azrael a unit or army booster. (like all infantry units within 12 inches have a 4++ save)
And fix the point costs on Company Vets, some of their stuff is overcosted.

I hope the next DA book brings back flavour, functionality and balance for DA players while not being OTT like the current BA book (i.e. stay away from this book Matt Ward).

What I personally want in the DA book is for rules for Cypher and the fallen to be played (in a Chaos or Fallen Angels army). Since GW seems to "forget" about Cypher every time they write a chaos book, a DA book would be the perfect chance for Cypher to make a triumphant return to 5th edition

Volkov wrote:There is no reason to take tactical squads in a BA army.

Have you ever tried to hold an objective with an Assault Squad? Yeah... it doesn't end well.

Yes, taking Devastators as Troops would be cruel. Don't do it.

Besides, the Dark Angels are quite the Codex chapter. Mustn't draw attention to theirselves and all that. Certainly they should have access to Mortis Dreadnoughts, and maybe Hunter Whirlwinds for anti-aircraft power. Stubbon would be brutal.

I liked my ideas :(

Just get rid of them. Them and the Templars. And the Wolves. And the Angels of EMO.

We need Codex Catachans, Codex Tanith, Codex Praetorians and Codex Wode Warriors.

Yeah.

How about we get rid of all the "HURP ALL MARINES CAN BE ONE CODEX AND BRING BACK SQUATS" whiners first?

Yes, taking Devastators as Troops would be cruel. Don't do it.

Well what about as elites? Or giving tactical squads 2 heavy weapons instead of 1 special 1 heavy? Tactical sergeants with signums?

But on another note is everyone in agreement that DA should become a shooty chapter?

I think they should be shooty. DW is the close combat option and that is highly specialized

I'd like to see more buffs to DW. Give them WS/BS 5 or something like that.

I think GW has done a good job of differentiating SW and BA from vanilla marines and I'd like to see the same thing done for DA. So with that in mind, what makes the DA "unique"?

* Lots of Terminators
* Some of the best Bikers of any SM's
* First Legion so lots of wierd wargear and weaponry.
* Hunt the Fallen
* Stubborn but Tactical Geniuses
* Bad-ass Chaplains and Librarians

So I think a gunline based force with unique access to wargear, awesome Termies and bikes, Stubborn USR for everyone, some sort of Hunt the Fallen rule, and maybe Interrogator Chaplain solos a la Wolfguard and Sanguinary Priests that provide buffs and bad-assness.

What I don't want to see are any entries that just don't fit the DA fluff but crammed in anyway (I'm looking at you Sternguard and Vanguard!).

Kanluwen wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I like everything you posted, except beefing up the Scouts. Their scouts shouldn't be any different than anyone else's. I really like the idea of Ravenwing as Vanguard Vets though. That's a cool idea.

Not true. Dark Angels utilize their Scouts in a similar role to the Raven Guard and Space Wolves in having actual Veteran Battle-Brothers in an insurgency and precision strike role, rather than the standard role we see in the Ultramarines and others of just being a place to park the newbies. I can see them being able to take something like a Scout unit called "Huntsmen" that are Veteran Battle-Brothers shedding their Power Armour for hunting the Fallen.

A perusing of the Lexicanum article isn't turning anything up on the DA scouts. Then again, I haven't read the Dark Angels codex in like 2 years so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I really like the ideas you folks are coming up with on giving the DA more "weird" technology - I love all that ancient stuff that hasn't been in the game since 2nd edition. I was as happy as I was surprised when they came out with rules for the Thunderfire Cannon in the Marine Codex - I got to use my Thudd gun! I'd definitely be down for more Dark Age of Technology stuff for the Dark Angels, and having them ride jetbikes is as absurd as much of the other stuff variant chapters have been getting as of late.

As far as I recall, it was in Sergeant Naaman's rules.

However, I'd like to see something akin to Wolf Scouts/Huntsmen for every Space Marine Chapter.

A 0-1 beefed up Scout unit would be a hell of a draw for me to get more into the armies.

Dont forget to ake the ven dred good like the other chapters

What? Right now I'd say that the DA Ven dread is better than the other chapters. It doesn't have WS/BS 5 but it is pretty cheap at only 145 base points and still gets the job done.

Except when you roll 2s to hit, or 3s to hit in combat against WS4 opponents.

Naaman back in 3rd did have a stealthy feel. He had a rule to have all his bolt weapons silenced, and only tripped the alarm in sentry scenarios on a 6

What we could do is have BS/WS 3 scouts for normal squads, but a Naaman led squad could be 4 representing full fledged battle brothers fighting in carapace armour, and they could have special deployment rules that will have them walk on from a board edge or deploy anywhere like Lictors and Marbo

As much as I like my conversion, I would prefer if the named HQ i use the most had an actual model as well.
I like the 2 heavy weapons in a tac squad idea, with or without sig. Would make for some nifty combat squading as well. Alot of other good ideas in here too.

Assuming the Whirlwind gets fixed (pick one type at beggining of game? lame) the LR Helios would make a nifty addition as well. Missles + lascannons = fort of redeption, why not a LR? Maybe some of the FW style shooty, no troop drop pods as well.

What if the RW got a larger radius homming beacon, a DS advantage similar to BA's Decent of Angels that would promote mixed wing forces (very fluffy).
Last thing I can come up with would be an honorguard type thing. I know command squads are there, but really, the chapter master can't take a company champioin cuz he's not a company master? Same with the librarian charged with the chapters darkest secerets? Really?

Oh yeah, and Cypher. Rules. Fluff. Anything. Please?

Chaplains make all nearby units re-roll to hit for shooting instead of in combat?

Chaplains make all nearby units re-roll to hit for shooting instead of in combat?

I had actually thought about something like that, but it might be overpowered with say a devastator squad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've got it! Chaplains can have something similar to guard orders for squads. First rank fire second rank fire for bolters!

I was thinking more along the lines of Marine Guide / Doom.