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Uhh pistols arent standard issue equipment to infantry. Officers yes, and signals guys guarding crypto stuff.

Plus its more of an entrenching tool than a bayonet. Not really what we think of when we think 40k ccw (chainsword, etc).

Chainswords are not cheap enough to give one per guardsman. And yes, all Guardsmen have CCWs (they don't get a second attack because they don't have pistols).

I thought the M9 was standard issue?

Standard issue yes...to certain groups in the arm forces. Infantry privates are not worth the time, money, and training to give a sidearm to.

What would be the strategic value of it? The infanteer has run out of ammo, cant get any ammo from his dead buddies, so he whips out his pistol? If things are that bad a psitol aint gonna change anything.

From Wikipedia:

The most common sidearm in the U.S. Army is the 9 mm M9 pistol which is issued to the majority of combat and support units.

This is sourced.

I'd like someone with service in the US Military to confirm or deny this.

You didint check the source. All the source does is link it to a wpns spec from the army website. Im not saying they dont issue pistols at all, im saying infantry do not get one issued to them, or are trained on them. It would serve no purpose.

And wiki is not a tool for research. Academia frowns upon it for anything.

Melissia wrote:From Wikipedia:

The most common sidearm in the U.S. Army is the 9 mm M9 pistol which is issued to the majority of combat and support units.

This is sourced.

I'd like someone with service in the US Military to confirm or deny this.

Just because its the most common side arm, doesnt mean its issued to everyone.

Having done security work in the Sand Box, even for the guys that are issued handguns(which is not everyone)- most dont carry them into combat. The weight is better used for carrying more ammo for thier rifle.

Thanks, Mistress of Minis. I'll remove that from non-officers, then.

Another factor- is handguns using our technology are significantly weaker than rifles. I wont drop statistics, but they only have about 25% of the muzzle energy of a combat rifle.

I also think you're too dismissive about the effectiveness of the current generation of body armor. The stuff is saving lives. Comparing armor in reality vs imaginary IG armor won't provide a very balanced benchmark.

Actually I was going off of the fact that IG Flak Armor is lighter and covers more of the body than current armor (using Cadian armor as a base, I don't count Catachan and in general I despise them). I still wanted to give it a 6+ save because it DOES work, but it doesn't protect as much of the body.

So a poll. Who thinks it should be kept as a 6+ save, who thinks it should be removed? I'm not increasing it to a 5+ save, it just does not protect as much of the body as Flak armor, and I don't think it's actually as effective as Flak Armor to begin with.

Whats the difference Melissia in coverage? Sometimes my eyes aren't so good.

US-torso head, neck, shoulders
http://ljforestier.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/military-body-armor-interceptor.jpg

Cadian. looks about the same

According to Dark Heresy, the most generic Guard Flak Armor covers effectively the entire body.

That is to say:

Head (helmet)
Shoulders (pauldrons)
Arms (pauldrons/gauntlets/gloves)
Hands (gauntlets/gloves)
Front, side, back (Chest/side/black plates)
Legs (greaves, boots)
Feet (boots)

This entire set weighs 11kg (24.2lbs).

I'm not seeing the hands or arm armor. I see a plate like my old bike boots but not sure if thats meant to represent armor. I could see 6+ just to represent a more poor form of armor though.

The only IG troops that have anywhere near that much armor coverage are storm troopers & carapace vets.

Please keep in mind Dark Heresy is a RPG- so there will be alot of fluff discrepencies to validate roleplaying and storytelling options in the game.

No, this was specifically described as "Guard Flak Armor". Flak Armor apparently can be in cloth form, or even cloak form so their entire uniform could actually be flak armor, with the obvious plates merely being thicker/heavier layers.


Also, Dan Abnett and Andy Hoare worked on Dark Heresy; I still consider it as canon as (if not more than) any BL book.

jp400 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Ld9 for standard junior officers, no way. Certainly not for the US army. If the US has a weakness its that its soldiers fare rather poorly under fire. The US army does best when its shooting, not being shot at.

And this is based on what???

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are COMPLETLY wrong here. (Unless you are trying to compare POGS)

If you want to see how well US Army Combat Soldiers act under fire, I have first hand video/pictures/experience that says otherwise to what you are saying.

Bubble not burst. Your videos would proove little, most current combat theatres can cause a few casualties but not sufficiently threaten any US force in the field. History shows when the odds are more even US forces bottle relatively quickly, Mogadishu being a good example.

40K is about roughly even sides, the US doesnt play that game in real life the closest to that happens is in exercises. There things start to look sorry, most European armies trounce US armed forces in exercises. Ld9 officers is the Hollywood version.

Ld9 is a lot, if we account for Ld10 being reserved for legendary figures and the hive mind. Who deserves Ld9? The Gurkhas perhaps. Ld8 for most elite and Ld7 for most rank and file worldwide. Deduct one for most third world countries and an additional one for conscripts.

sebster wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Avalon Hill's Squad Leader used a 2d6 morale system identical to the Ld stat in Warhammer. It gave US troops a Ld6, most other major armies Ld7, elite troops of any nationality were one point higher either Ld7 or Ld8.

It modelled WWII, though, didn't it?

The US army at that point is not the US army you see in the field today.

That is true, but it was also compared against everyone elses WW2 also.

Orlanth wrote:That is true, but it was also compared against everyone elses WW2 also.

Sure but the US troops sent combat in WWII were drafted, and had grown dramatically in size in a couple of years, which limited officer training and quality markedly.

It is not like the current US army.

Regardless, I'm not giving them lower than seven. Ld6, in 40k, is representative of conscripts. No matter your opinion on the US Army, they do not use conscripts. They use trained, professional soldiers, and that is the end of THAT discussion.

One could convince me to move junior officers to eight perhaps.

Sure but I am not calling for Ld6 US like Squad Leader in the earlier post. Squad Leader morale was varied, 40k morale is not. If Space Marines only get +1 morale over standard humans and are super eilte it is likewise going to take a lot to drop morale -1 also.

What doesn't work is Ld9 US even as officers. Morale should be Ld7 for regulars, Ld8 for special forces with much rarified officer bonuses.
Ld9 is for wierd stuff, super-elite and heroes.

Melissia wrote:Regardless, I'm not giving them lower than seven. Ld6, in 40k, is representative of conscripts in 40k. No matter your opinion on the US Army, they do not use conscripts. They use trained, professional soldiers, and that is the end of THAT discussion.

One could convince me to move junior officers to eight perhaps.

Fixed for you, see the added bold.

Keep in mind that the average citizen of the Empire of Man is an oppressed person. The Empire is a dystopian, cyberpunk society. It's the survival of the fittest, not the most wealthy.

I wouldn't even give the toughest 'gangsta' from Compton 5 hours before going insane in a hive world.

No, you didn't. Not everyone who lives in 40k is the fittest. Some people are just plain lucky, and others come from more affluent worlds. Regardless, I don't necessarily care because I am NOT making the soldiers into Ld6. Ever. They're already overpriced as it is.

To elaborate a bit, perfect realism does not matter. What matters is a mix of realism and playability. 40k does not use realism, and neither will this codex

Melissia wrote:No, you didn't. Not everyone who lives in 40k is the fittest. Some people are just plain lucky, and others come from more affluent worlds. Regardless, I don't necessarily care because I am NOT making the soldiers into Ld6. Ever. They're already overpriced as it is.

To elaborate a bit, perfect realism does not matter. What matters is a mix of realism and playability. 40k does not use realism, and neither will this codex

Oh come on. Even the most affluent worlds are still oppressive, don't even try that. Some people are just plain lucky=they're probably psykers and are going to be hunted down. Overall the Empire is an oppressive regime and you're STILL oppressed even if you happen to have a lot of credits on you. (Wh40k uses credits, right? hahaha)

Perfect realism doesn't matter in 40k, sure, but if you're making the United States Military to fight against 40k then you might want to at least try and make them accurate.

Either way, I'm done as obviously Codex: US Army doesn't really know what it's supposed to be.

I would say your bias to the US army is affecting your judgement, but since this whole exercise is an exercise in the absurd it would be pointless.

We cannot compare these to societies technologically since we have no idea how anything works in 40k. We dont need to since its SF.

Orlanth wrote:Sure but I am not calling for Ld6 US like Squad Leader in the earlier post. Squad Leader morale was varied, 40k morale is not. If Space Marines only get +1 morale over standard humans and are super eilte it is likewise going to take a lot to drop morale -1 also.

What doesn't work is Ld9 US even as officers. Morale should be Ld7 for regulars, Ld8 for special forces with much rarified officer bonuses.
Ld9 is for wierd stuff, super-elite and heroes.

Phrased like that I agree with you.

This thread makes me really want to write up some stats for Lt. Gen. Chesty Puller. . .

BeRzErKeR wrote:This thread makes me really want to write up some stats for Lt. Gen. Chesty Puller. . .

Heathen! LT Gen Puller was a US Marine, and you mentioned him in a US Army thread!! Thats like taking the name of Chesty Puller in vain!! Better not go outside....a Force recon team might already by scoping your place out for sniper range

abrams stats

bs front side rear
4 14 14 14

No.

nordic marine wrote:abrams stats

bs front side rear
4 14 14 14

Are you trying to rip the game apart .

Omg,why is everyone such a gun-nut here? The entire first page is full of pictures of guns!

Personally I prefer revolvers.



This gun is too sexy for you.