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The Russians actually did fight in the Vietnam war...

They had many fighter pilots out that, the Super-Sonic jets. Many many confirmed reports of it.

All of this is nice and all, but it's very off-topic...

Very off topic, I still think a M4 would Str 2 Range 36 for fluff.

Maybe 24 or 30", tau pulse rifles are extremely long range and they are only 30".
A 40k autogun is basically a M4, but with space bullets made of space materials that are huge and do huge damage.

So str 2, 24" would probably be about right.

A highly trained modern soldier would be BS3, like a basic cadian troop who trains his entire life. A super elite dude would probably reach BS4, just like IG veterans.

What we can look at is the profile.

Ld9 for standard junior officers, no way. Certainly not for the US army. If the US has a weakness its that its soldiers fare rather poorly under fire. The US army does best when its shooting, not being shot at.

Avalon Hill's Squad Leader used a 2d6 morale system identical to the Ld stat in Warhammer. It gave US troops a Ld6, most other major armies Ld7, elite troops of any nationality were one point higher either Ld7 or Ld8.

Officer were ranked individually at Ld6 to Ld10 and averaged 7-8, all the nationalities could have any of the officer rankings.

It was a bit of a turn for a US games company to record US soldiers as having the worst morale.

I would have US soldiers as equivalent to guardsmen in all respects. Ld6 would be a bit unfair as the grading is more heavily bracketed in the game, after all Space Marines only rank Ld8.

Ld6 is for conscripts. The US doesn't use conscripts.

Orlanth wrote:

Ld9 for standard junior officers, no way. Certainly not for the US army. If the US has a weakness its that its soldiers fare rather poorly under fire. The US army does best when its shooting, not being shot at.

And this is based on what???

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are COMPLETLY wrong here. (Unless you are trying to compare POGS)

If you want to see how well US Army Combat Soldiers act under fire, I have first hand video/pictures/experience that says otherwise to what you are saying.

Orlanth wrote:Avalon Hill's Squad Leader used a 2d6 morale system identical to the Ld stat in Warhammer. It gave US troops a Ld6, most other major armies Ld7, elite troops of any nationality were one point higher either Ld7 or Ld8.

It modelled WWII, though, didn't it?

The US army at that point is not the US army you see in the field today.


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Skinnattittar wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Vietnam War.

a) Vietnam wasn't a War, it was a Conflict.
b) Russia didn't fight in Vietnam to any appreciable degree (supposedly they had advisers, most of whom died advising).
c) Vietnam wasn't technically lost due to the battles, nor was it technically lost. The US just sort of left due to diplomatic reasons at home (that's all I'm going to say without getting into a horrible argument).

1) That's silly. When you lose 50,000 troops and kill 3 to 4 million enemy citizens, you were in a war.
2) The AK-47 was there, though, and used to good effect. While the rife isn’t up to the standards of professional soldiery, it is a great weapon
3) The US began offensive land operations in 1965, and concluded peace talks in 1973. In this time they were not able to effectively stop the North Vietnamese ability to send new troops over the border. They failed to meet their political goals. That’s called losing.

re: Vietnam

DROP. THE. FRAKKING. POLITICS. Such discussions have no place here in my thread.

We are not here to talk about Russia, nor are we here to talk about Vietnam, nor that era's forces.

Soooooooo.... do you think we should nuke the oil spil like Russia suggested?

Lol, just kidding.

But still?

kill dem stunties wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.

No, kevlar is made to slow down solid projectiles, nothing else, no heat dissipation or anything or the sort.

Orks tshirts give them a save because orks latent psychic field and their belief that it does.

Cadian/catachan flak/tank tops are made of 38k years from now super stc space material that makes our armor absolutely useless.


Also i would heavily doubt anything we have short of a tomahawk cruise missile would be on par with a krak missile. Even a javelin would probably only be str 4-5 in 40k terms. A rhino could get hammered by an abrams for hours with no ill effects.

Also, they should all be ws2, bs3 is ok, but us army is trained to NOT get into hand to hand, their CQC that they teach is mostly theatre, not very useful in an actual melee.

Actually, woven kevlar is specifically heat resistant. Lots of garments made to be heat-resistant incorporate kevlar. Laminates like Goldflex and Spectra Shield are particularly vulnerable to heat.


Anybody who's anybody on the 40k battlefield doesn't wear a helmet. That shows you just about how long they'll last on a modern battlefield.


"Hey dude, there's this big angry bald guy in red and brass-colored armor giving orders."

"OK, distance to target, 780 meters, elevation 12 meters, wind...calculating holdover...adjust 12 mils right, 25 mils up"

"Roger, taking the shot"

"Roger, send it" *bang*

2.5 seconds later, Chaos Lord hits the ground dead.




If you want to talk 40k weapons and effectiveness, let's look at the bolter. We already tried something like that. It was called the Gyrojet pistol and it sucked. The problem is, rocket-powered munitions actually GAIN speed with distance up to a certain point. These things are useless at close range because they need the distance to reach an acceptable velocity. Bolters suck. Ork shootaz, the idea of some gobbled together zip gun being better than a precision engineered weapon is simply ludicrous. Krak missiles: you hit an Ork Trukk (a crappy pickup truck) with a missile and it has a *chance* or surviving!? Yeah right, hit a pickup truck with an AT4 and see what happens to it. You'll have to walk around in concentric circles with a spatula to pick up all the pieces.

I'd say an Abrams would be

Type: Fast, Tank.

Profile: BS3 FAV13, SAV11, RAV10

Wargear:
Main Gun w/Co-axial Heavy Stubber
2x Heavy Stubbers
Extra Armour
Searchlight
Smoke Launcher

Weapon Rules
120mm Main Gun (pick one profile each time fired)
AT Rng72", S8, AP1, Ordnance
HE Rng72", S6, AP4, Ordnance Blast

Auto-Grenade Launcher (Mk19)
Rng36", S3, AP6, Blast Heavy 2

Heavy Stubber (M2s)
Rng36", S4, AP6, Heavy 3

Options:
Upgrade one non-coaxial Heavy Stubber to an Auto-Grenade Launcher.

So did you intend a large blast with the HE round, or small blast?


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NuggzTheNinja wrote:If you want to talk 40k weapons and effectiveness, let's look at the bolter. We already tried something like that. It was called the Gyrojet pistol and it sucked. The problem is, rocket-powered munitions actually GAIN speed with distance up to a certain point. These things are useless at close range because they need the distance to reach an acceptable velocity. Bolters suck. Ork shootaz, the idea of some gobbled together zip gun being better than a precision engineered weapon is simply ludicrous. Krak missiles: you hit an Ork Trukk (a crappy pickup truck) with a missile and it has a *chance* or surviving!? Yeah right, hit a pickup truck with an AT4 and see what happens to it. You'll have to walk around in concentric circles with a spatula to pick up all the pieces.

Bolters aren't gyrojet weapons.

Gyrojet weapons are caseless, as they are purely rocket. Bolters are not caseless, and are probably not purely rocket.

As far as I can tell, bolters fire in two stages. First, a traditional stage like a particularly massive bullet or shotgun slug, and then it ignites the rocket afterwards.

As for Ork sluggas/shootaz, those are so widely varied that trying to claim they're useless is like saying "I believe firearms are useless".

Melissia:

I do believe I wrote "Blast".

Which is a large blast if it's ordnance, unless you specifically mention that it's small blast.

Indeed, and when we look at the blast marker rules, on p.30, The Rules Section: Weapons, the Rulebook, we see that "Blast" indicates 3" markers, while "Large Blast" indicates 5" markers. Otherwise, I would have written it like the Battlecannon, Earthshaker Cannon, Siege Cannon, Siege Mortar, and Heavy Mortar are written ("Ordnance 1, Large Blast").

All ordnance blasts are large blasts unless specifically noted as small blast, at least last time I checked.

Good for you, because then by reading the Blast rules you surely noticed that the game term for small blast is "Blast".

Yes, for non-ordnance blasts it is. Maybe I'm confusing rules between editions or something, I'll check tomorrow, as it's getting late.

Im sorry but no, when you say kevlar is heat resistant, thats laughable, i mean heat resistant as in resist something that will punch clean through a man cauterizing the wound on the way out. Kevlar wont do anything like that ...

As for your sniper shot, why does he need a helmet? he has the dark gods looking after him >.> that bullet just dinked off his head, go invulnerable saves!

They then all put on their helmets and have fun with the snipers.

Also, i have a hard time with any vehicles having more than armor 10, MABYE 11 if you added a few feet of steel to the front ... problem is steel is like butter in the 41st millennium.

Ld6 would be a bit unfair as the grading is more heavily bracketed in the game, after all Space Marines only rank Ld8.

The Ld8 of a marine cant be compared to a Ld8 of a normal human. The ATSKNF make marine Ld tests way better and more logical.
A human fleeing (Ld8) will run of the battlefield (routed). A space marine fleeing (Ld8) isnt fleeign at all, its called regrouping, they move backwards and automatically regroup at the earliest possibility. You cant rout a marine.

As far as I can tell, bolters fire in two stages. First, a traditional stage like a particularly massive bullet or shotgun slug, and then it ignites the rocket afterwards.

Thank god that someone finally gets it right!
Bolters need the case propellant to make them lethal at point blank as well and not need 200 meters to attain the velocity needed to penetrate armour from the pulse jet alone.

OT:
Now I dread the part where I go over to the sisters codex and have a looksy, last time it ended in world war 3
(will I find S6 A4 power weapon sisters again?)

kill dem stunties wrote:Im sorry but no, when you say kevlar is heat resistant, thats laughable, i mean heat resistant as in resist something that will punch clean through a man cauterizing the wound on the way out. Kevlar wont do anything like that ...

Well since we don't have any lasguns lying around in the real world to test it, I suppose we don't know. But my point still stands: Kevlar is very heat resistant and it is used particularly in applications that require heat resistance.

My point is, the 40k universe was (thankfully!) created by English geeks who, to my knowledge, never served in any military, let alone in any kind of combat capacity. The tactics, weapons, and background are not derived from tried and true military truths, but from geekdom. Which is fantastic because it makes for a fun and interesting game, but it is just that: a game. A real tactician has to incorporate logistics and long-term goals into his plans, and nowadays commanders must integrate aspects of 4th generation warfare: the media, politics, religion, and culture. This is the difference between real life and a game.

How do you know that the 40k game designers have no hands-on experience with this stuff? A chainsword is a prime example. Anybody who has ever actually used a chainsaw will tell you that the idea of a chainsword is completely laughable.

But it looks cool, and it's grimdark, and so it finds its way into 40k. Fantastic, but not realistic.

xxmatt85 wrote:Very off topic, I still think a M4 would Str 2 Range 36 for fluff.

I don't have a link to the exact quote, but historically the lasgun was viewed as being equivalent to the modern assault rifle (or mayhaps the autogun was, which has the same stats as the lasgun). I'd keep them at BS3 and Str 3. BS3 represents marksmanship and current optics.

I'd switch the SAW type to a light stubber (S3) as its glorified assault rifle in this context.

I'd switch the 50 cal to a heavy stubber. They look identical and it feels right. I'd drop the heavy bolter from the profile.

I'd add a lasgun to the grenadier to give it a proper under slung feel to it.

Javelins could have the same stats as lascannons.

The grenadier has all of the standard equipment of the Soldier, but has the grenade launcher along with it. Perhaps this is underslung, perhaps it's a separate launcher... in-game it's just represented by having the rifle, pistol, CCW, and grenade launcher, amongst other things.

Word.


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mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Platoon Forward Observer
-- Uses Army Soldier's equipment and stats, and gains the following:
-- May count as Line of Sight for indirect fire weapons.
-- Artillery Strike: Range Unlimited, S9 AP2, Ordnance Barrage 1 Blast, Twin-Linked


this unit should be change to Scout Unit/ Forward Observer, I was never called that. Scoutsout

I would proffer AP3. In general being superior to IG standards should only be done with strong supportive arguments. Basilisk just screams 155 now.


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Fast Attack:

Humvee (vehicle)
Armor 10 (all around)
speed fast
comes with: heavy stubber. May upgrade to Javelin team/missile (however that discussion comes out) at +10 points.

Fraz, I will one up you here on the Hummer:

Fast Attack:
Type: Fast
Armor 10 (all around)
comes with: heavy stubber. May upgrade to TOW Missile at +10 points.

TOW Missile:
Range: 48''
Str: 9
AP: 2

That works. A TOW has the size to definitely be a good lascannon stand in. Its ability to penetrate FEET or armor should qualify (those of us who have the original Forgeworld book which showed steel equivalent thicknesses would reflect that the TOW is actually much more commensurate with a melta cannon in penetrative power).

Agreed.

I would compare Hummers to IG: Sentinel in terms of what role it would play.

SOG ATV for Sentinels....
Hummers for Armoured Sentinels...
M113 for Rhino...
Bradley/LAV25 for Chimera...
Abrams for LRBT...
Avenger AA for Hydra...
Stryker Mortar Carrier for Griffon...
Longbow Apache for Vendetta...
BlackHawk Gunship for Valks....

ect ect ect....

Works for me.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:Im sorry but no, when you say kevlar is heat resistant, thats laughable, i mean heat resistant as in resist something that will punch clean through a man cauterizing the wound on the way out. Kevlar wont do anything like that ...

Well since we don't have any lasguns lying around in the real world to test it, I suppose we don't know. But my point still stands: Kevlar is very heat resistant and it is used particularly in applications that require heat resistance.

My point is, the 40k universe was (thankfully!) created by English geeks who, to my knowledge, never served in any military, let alone in any kind of combat capacity. The tactics, weapons, and background are not derived from tried and true military truths, but from geekdom. Which is fantastic because it makes for a fun and interesting game, but it is just that: a game. A real tactician has to incorporate logistics and long-term goals into his plans, and nowadays commanders must integrate aspects of 4th generation warfare: the media, politics, religion, and culture. This is the difference between real life and a game.

How do you know that the 40k game designers have no hands-on experience with this stuff? A chainsword is a prime example. Anybody who has ever actually used a chainsaw will tell you that the idea of a chainsword is completely laughable.

But it looks cool, and it's grimdark, and so it finds its way into 40k. Fantastic, but not realistic.

Most of that doesnt seem to be very accurate.

Yes if we tryed to make a chainsword with todays materials and such it would jam and break so fast, fortunately, they live in an era of comparable super tech (even though theyre in theyre own techno dark age) everything they have is light years ahead our stuff.

Making the edges on the saw teeth monomolecular would probably aid in cutting through fibrous type materials with 0 resistance.
the general weakness of chainsaws.

As for the tactics yea, theyre a little funny (MASS CHARGE), but as far as marines running at people and chopping them up ... space amrines really only can fail armor saves in 40k to small arms for game balance, fluff constantly talks of a single amrine wading through a million lasguns chopping them all up, fact is if the enemy cant hurt you and theyre hiding why not run up and chop em lol.

Not to mention the terror aspect, which is more frightenening, superhuman who hides behind cover and trades potshots with you, or one whose running waving a crazy sword vox amp screaming various litanys at you, while wading tdirectly into .50 cal fire laughing as it cant even chip the paint on his super future armor ...