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xxmatt85 wrote:

nordic marine wrote:abrams stats

bs front side rear
4 14 14 14

Are you trying to rip the game apart .

Not to mention completely unrealistic for a tank that can be disabled by an RPG up the tailpipe (hence the improvised armour seen in Iraq).

Remember, the fluff and in-game stats are two completely different things. Realisticly, an Abrams would be, at the most, 11-11-10. Compared with a LRBT, the most eavily amored MBT in the galaxy, and it probably wouldn't even reach Front Armour 10


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And an M16/M4 would be s2 approx. 3 shots to kill a regular human sounds about right to me.


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And a regular soldiers BS at a fair distance would be 2, while closer up would be 3. An Abrams is very accurate, though: BS2 in the MGs (there machine guns, not designed to be accurate) while the blast scatter would be reduced by BS6. But it would be a helluva lot faster than a LRBT. An LRBTs top speed is 28kph according to lexi. An Abrams can get a perfect hit, while travelling full speed, on rough terrain, in pitch darkness. So it would have fast USR

Causing an unsaved wound-- IE, a casualty-- is not equivalent to a kill. Casualty just means they've been (mostly) taken out of the fight.

I chuckle to myself everytime people with no military/combat experiance try to argue the validity of current military equipment.

Aside from two or three people who have posted in this thread, you're wrong.

Also, to those of you trying to debate the realism of certain aspects in this game, it's science fiction. Science. Fiction.

Fiction.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Omg,why is everyone such a gun-nut here? The entire first page is full of pictures of guns!

Because they're American.
Just kidding!

BOT: Officer of US army: probably ld7, 8 at a push. Standard trooper would be ld6, remember Cadians are extremely well trained, better than a modern SAS operative, and have avg. ld of 7. Sergeants for US army would be same LD: remember, Cadians are uber-elite compared with modern soldiers.


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Yeah, Melissia, fair point, realisticly an M16 would usually cause a casualty, but remember everythings in game stats are a lot less powerful than in the fluff/life, eg a lasgun is supposedly able to take out a guardsmen instantly, ripping of limps, blowing insides out and causing heads to explode, and you must be exceedingly tough to survive a shot from it, yet in game they ave only 1/2 chance of causing a casualty. So an M16, which requires about2 shots to safely take someone in body armour out of the fight, is having its power reduced considerably less than a lasgun. Anyway, isn't it a little late for arguments over whether a US army soldier's standard rifle is equivelant in power to that of a standard-issue rifle of a fictional sci-fi soldier 38,000 years in the future?

I lol'd really hard when some idiot earlier said we pulled out of Mogadishu because US Armed forces have poor morale.

We pulled out of Somalia because the president realized the absurdity of meddling in Middle Eastern affairs, which is something his successors forgot. American soldiers, typically have very good morale and "hooah." But of course, there are always exceptions to every rule.

Fool.

And Like Crash said, it's funny how the people who aren't in the Armed Forces are arguing with those who apparently know quite a bit more.

And the Imperial Guard use auspex (radar/thermal imaging) to locate targets, then point and shoot.

CLEARLY inferior to the M1 Abrams MBT.

Lrn2usarmy

felixthecat345 wrote:Standard trooper would be ld6

As I've said a few times, just no. Ld6 is for conscripts, and the US Army does not use conscripts . Therefor, they will not be Ld6.

Speaking of "realism", this is worth reading.

Mmhmm. That's why I want to have a balance between "realism" and having a fun codex. Which is also part of the reason why I'm not budging on the Ld7 issue. As I said, I might remove the Ld9 from officers, maybe, but Ld7 is here to stay. Working within the system, Ld7 is the standard for human leadership values. Indeed, Inquisitorial forces have Ld8 minimum, including non-combatants like Sages and Chirurgeons.

I believe the US Navy has railguns in testing now that are capable of delivering armour penetrating rounds at a speed of 5km per second at a range of over 350 kilometers (and accurate enough to hit a 5m target at that range).

I'm not really sure how that compares to Warhammer 40k armour... but that's more than enough kinetic energy to go straight through pretty much any current battle tank using a tungsten rod or such. Appparently these test shots are only rated at about 10 megajoules (which is a LOT of energy)... supposedly the gun is capable of delivering 32 megajoules.

That's probably equivalent to Tau railguns-- same concept anyway, but it's a naval weapon as opposed to (For Tau) a handheld one.

Commander Endova wrote:Uh... What's the point? I mean, the U.S. has some of the finest soldiers out there, but other than the fact that the United States no longer exists in the 41st millennium, how different would it really play than Mechanized or Airborne IG? Hell, 90% of the stuff you listed up there is just "counts as" stuff from C:IG. By all means, make a U.S. Army "counts as" force using the IG codex, but this just seems redundant.

You would actually be wrong there. There is a army that fought in the Macharius Crusade that was called the Merican Fusiliers. This is the 41st Millenium version of The US Army (HOOAH!).
They were part of the 1st Army Group, therefore they were honored. In the BoLS rules, they are very well trained, and all use carapace armour.

I find it hard to believe that US troops would be any better or worse then IG infantry.

The M9 pistol is most certainly NOT issued to every grunt on the line.

As Frazz and others have said, the Imperial Guard doesn't really use all that much crazy super future tech, and any modern military can easily be represented by the IG codex with creative counts as.

To say that an Abrams doesn't have the same armor as a LRBT just because the LRBT is 40,000 years newer is absurd considering what we know about the LRBT from in game sources (GW's own fluff).

On a 10 point stat scale, there really isn't enough variation that you can use to differentiate between various human factions. For example, it's easy to assume that any trained regular soldier will have WS3 BS3, regardless of if they are Cadians, US Army, Mordian, Valhallan, Russian, or Korean, or what have you, especially when WS4 is represented by Space Marines, Orks, Necrons and other super human individuals.

Hell, an imperial guard platoon is set up pretty close to the way a US platoon is anyway, with the exception being that usually a US platoon is 3 squads of 12, organized into 4 man fire teams. Taking 3 IG line squads and a PCS is roughly the same number of men and in the purposes of a 40k type battlefield, the line squads would probably stick together anyway.

The only things that don't really have a good counterpart in the US forces are Tech Priests, Priests, and Comissars.

whitedragon wrote:The M9 pistol is most certainly NOT issued to every grunt on the line.

This...even if I carried one over seas...

whitedragon wrote:usually a US platoon is 4 squads of 10-12, organized into 5-6 man fire teams.

Fixed, but only because I'm nit-picky

Sacred Chao wrote:I lol'd really hard when some idiot earlier said we pulled out of Mogadishu because US Armed forces have poor morale.

Actually the comment was regarding morale during the battle of Mogadishu. The pull out occured later, when Clinton failed his own seperate morale check.

Failed his own morale check...i lol'd...

Melissia wrote:Mmhmm. That's why I want to have a balance between "realism" and having a fun codex. Which is also part of the reason why I'm not budging on the Ld7 issue. As I said, I might remove the Ld9 from officers, maybe, but Ld7 is here to stay. Working within the system, Ld7 is the standard for human leadership values. Indeed, Inquisitorial forces have Ld8 minimum, including non-combatants like Sages and Chirurgeons.

OK, but keep ld7 on sergeants. Remember, US army doesn't get severely punished (eg executed) for retreating, so I'd recommend LD7 on all troopers & sergeants.


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calgar 2.5 wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:Uh... What's the point? I mean, the U.S. has some of the finest soldiers out there, but other than the fact that the United States no longer exists in the 41st millennium, how different would it really play than Mechanized or Airborne IG? Hell, 90% of the stuff you listed up there is just "counts as" stuff from C:IG. By all means, make a U.S. Army "counts as" force using the IG codex, but this just seems redundant.

You would actually be wrong there. There is a army that fought in the Macharius Crusade that was called the Merican Fusiliers. This is the 41st Millenium version of The US Army (HOOAH!).
They were part of the 1st Army Group, therefore they were honored. In the BoLS rules, they are very well trained, and all use carapace armour.

That's an interesting fact you have there. According to Lexi, Merica is what imperial records say to be a large nation that prospered during the AoOE. (eg that is what they think America/USA was called). All very well trained? Yeah, pretty much US army. (but why no space-SAS?) Carapace armour? Well, not the modern one, obviously.

EDIT: Wait, there is space-SAS. They're called stormtroopers.

The argument that nobody has brought up yet:

Air power. 40k airpower could kick the U.S Army's butt to hell and back. Let alone an orbital bombardment.
In addition, many of our weapons rely on programming. You really think that those 38,000 years in the future couldn't jam our modern equipment in a blink?

I've noticed a lot of army lovers, and "true patriot" types here...but let's be realistic.

On-Topic: I'd go for a cheaper, larger force, if possible. Keep models cheap, armor saves weak, and vehicle armor weak (in comparison to 40k standards). Try to play it a bit more conservatively than you have, and ignore those "true patriots" who seem to be offended that you dare declare the U.S. Army subpar (which it is, by standards of the far GrimDark future.)

Valkyries as black hawks?

Che-Vito wrote:The argument that nobody has brought up yet:

Air power. 40k airpower could kick the U.S Army's butt to hell and back. Let alone an orbital bombardment.
In addition, many of our weapons rely on programming. You really think that those 38,000 years in the future couldn't jam our modern equipment in a blink?

I've noticed a lot of army lovers, and "true patriot" types here...but let's be realistic.

On-Topic: I'd go for a cheaper, larger force, if possible. Keep models cheap, armor saves weak, and vehicle armor weak (in comparison to 40k standards). Try to play it a bit more conservatively than you have, and ignore those "true patriots" who seem to be offended that you dare declare the U.S. Army subpar (which it is, by standards of the far GrimDark future.)

I'd proffer this issue would be more appropriate in an EPIC level context. 40K effectively has no material air support other than very minor items.
(I'd also proffer 40K airpower would get stomped. Their stats in FW are good but not great. Orbital is completely different however)

The only air power in regular 40k is the valk and equililants, so I don't think air power should be included in a codex.



Let's make a new Ap. Fandex/Expansion for Us Air power.
(*sarcasam*)

In the far future of the 41st millennium, there is no such thing as NVGs.

Even my ratty conscript-based prior employer could afford to kit us out for nightlife. That Lior night scope gives you the ability to see targets out to several hundred meters, and identify targets at about 300. More with the help of an IR illuminator. Yet in the 41st millennium I have to roll a few dice to see if I can see across a 4 ft table.

Interesting conversation going on here. On the first page there are alot of pictures of modern weapons and suggestions as to what 40K counter parts maybe. I think that the idea of the m134 mini gun as a counter part for an auto cannon is a little off. I have always invisioned the modern counter part to an auto cannon is the M242 Bushmaster Chain gun. The two look similar.

How about adding ruless for a close air support attack from an A-10 Warthog? This might only workout for SpecOps teams, but that is what we'd use to fight aliens, right?

Oh, I like the idea of Valkyries as flyers, but by the rules they just seem to be able to swoop along, about ten feet above the ground, or land, either way, a two foot high gretchin can use his club to smack them!