Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

mon-keigh slayer wrote:
As for the tactics yea, theyre a little funny (MASS CHARGE), but as far as marines running at people and chopping them up ... space amrines really only can fail armor saves in 40k to small arms for game balance, fluff constantly talks of a single amrine wading through a million lasguns chopping them all up, fact is if the enemy cant hurt you and theyre hiding why not run up and chop em lol.

Ah yes, Captain OverExaggeration of the Hyperbole Marines; we meet again. How are you doing today?

Vladsimpaler wrote:

mon-keigh slayer wrote:
As for the tactics yea, theyre a little funny (MASS CHARGE), but as far as marines running at people and chopping them up ... space amrines really only can fail armor saves in 40k to small arms for game balance, fluff constantly talks of a single amrine wading through a million lasguns chopping them all up, fact is if the enemy cant hurt you and theyre hiding why not run up and chop em lol.

Ah yes, Captain OverExaggeration of the Hyperbole Marines; we meet again. How are you doing today?

Rofl x10

Plus....

What exactly is an amrine?

The problem with these 'whats better, modern weapons or space weapons' debates is that people never seem to take into account the stat scaling inherent to a 10 point system.

Its all well & good saying 'Look how deadly this weapon the US army have is, it should be at least S6 AP3, ergo it must be better than a pathetic S3 AP - lasgun'

But when you only have 10 potential strengths of weapon, concessions have to be made. Weapons with a broadly similar deadliosity have to be bracketed together, even if in reality theyd behave differently, & one would perhaps be superior to the other.

To see what I mean, look at the difference between a marine's stats & a human's stats, theres fluff about space marines picking up cars, decapitating people with one punch, & being 8 feet tall. Plus theyre helped out by power armour. But compared to a regular human (albeit an exceptionally well trained & equipped one in the case of Cadians) they only have one extra point of strength.

If you were going to plot out statlines to compare to what it would be like if it was real youd need a less restrictive system.




edited for spelling, ooh yeah!

jp400 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

mon-keigh slayer wrote:
As for the tactics yea, theyre a little funny (MASS CHARGE), but as far as marines running at people and chopping them up ... space amrines really only can fail armor saves in 40k to small arms for game balance, fluff constantly talks of a single amrine wading through a million lasguns chopping them all up, fact is if the enemy cant hurt you and theyre hiding why not run up and chop em lol.

Ah yes, Captain OverExaggeration of the Hyperbole Marines; we meet again. How are you doing today?

Rofl x10

Plus....

What exactly is an amrine?

Thanks ahaha

And I don't actually know what an amrine is, but they sound really OP.

:edit: I agree with somecallmeJack

For that matter, Alicia Dominica-- NOT a Space Marine-- was described as being hit by thousands of shots in a single battle before that one lethal one finally penetrated her armor. Mind you, she was a special character and probably wore artificer armor, but still.

Melissia wrote:For that matter, Alicia Dominica-- NOT a Space Marine-- was described as being hit by thousands of shots in a single battle before that one lethal one finally penetrated her armor. Mind you, she was a special character and probably wore artificer armor, but still.

Even then that's pure fanwank. Sorry.

Heh, it's not fanwank. It was official fluff in White Dwarf 293 IIRC.

Melissia wrote:Heh, it's not fanwank. It was official fluff in White Dwarf 293 IIRC.

Just because it's "official fluff" doesn't mean that it's not fanwank. See Codex: Space Marines.

I do not believe one could accurately call Sisters fluff as fanwank, considering many times Sisters get the crap beat out of them almost every time GW introduces a new piece of fluff involving Sisters. They got wiped out by Necrons in Sanctuary 101, Orks on Armageddon, and in the Tyranid invasions. The best GW seems willing to give them is martyrdom rather than victory...

Sounds like she had a suit of Plot Armour on.

Melissia wrote:I do not believe one could accurately call Sisters fluff as fanwank, considering many times Sisters get the crap beat out of them almost every time GW introduces a new piece of fluff involving Sisters. They got wiped out by Necrons in Sanctuary 101, Orks on Armageddon, and in the Tyranid invasions. The best GW seems willing to give them is martyrdom rather than victory...

You're right. Most isn't. But that PARTICULAR piece is just stupid. If it would've said "she withstood much more than a normal Sister of Battle could have until finally she was killed" then it sounds like a weird, crazy act. But when it's like "LOL IT TOOK LIKE 1000000 SHOTS TO DOWN THAT LADY BUT DEN SOME RANDOM SHOT HURT HER" it's just dumb.

Melissia wrote:I do not believe one could accurately call Sisters fluff as fanwank, considering many times Sisters get the crap beat out of them almost every time GW introduces a new piece of fluff involving Sisters. They got wiped out by Necrons in Sanctuary 101, Orks on Armageddon, and in the Tyranid invasions. The best GW seems willing to give them is martyrdom rather than victory...

Don't forget in Codex: Chaos Daemons they get wiped out by a Nurgle invasion!

Or the guns were not all that powerful.

I mean, look at Julius Caesar - 'According to Eutropius, around sixty or more men participated in the assassination. He was stabbed 23 times.[102] According to Suetonius, a physician later established that only one wound, the second one to his chest, had been lethal.'
Source, Wikipedia.

As for Sister Bashing.
In BL's audio-book 'Fire Born'

Yep. Games Workshop in general and Black LIbrary in specific seem to hate Sisters. Apparently they only like things that have penises and are bald, muscular, and old.

M4s with tactical scopes=autoguns=lasguns
Tactical armor=flak armor-1
Grenade launcher=grenade launcher
Javelin/TOW arguably equal to lascannons
Humvee=orky trak
Flamer=flamer
That sort of thing

Yes. The organization is the main issue. Also, I doubt that the Abrams is any more than AV12 front armor at most. I actually imagine bolter shells alone could mess that thing up.

Frazzled wrote:
Javelin/TOW arguably equal to lascannons

I can't really buy this.

A plasma cannon that generates the destructive heat of a small sun is strength 7.

A missile launcher 30,000 years in the future is strength 8.

A massive cannon firing a focused beam of pure energy is strength 9. And a missile launcher of today is equal to it?

Well old FW had a Leman have steel equivalent armor measured in inches. Thats Str 14 armor. A javelin/Tow would go through that like a knife through butter.

We have plasma now. Its a neat torch, but its just a torch and takes a while.

You also have guys waving sharpened knives around. KNIVES! in the 40M Millennium.

Frazzled wrote:Well old FW had a Leman have steel equivalent armor measured in inches. Thats Str 14 armor. A javelin/Tow would go through that like a knife through butter.

It'd go through that many inches of MODERN armor, yes.

The Leman Russ does not use modern armor.

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Well old FW had a Leman have steel equivalent armor measured in inches. Thats Str 14 armor. A javelin/Tow would go through that like a knife through butter.

It'd go through that many inches of MODERN armor, yes.

The Leman Russ does not use modern armor.

You're revealing your age. When Moses calls you "gramps" like he calls me, you have access to most ancient logic stacks . In this instance the original (softcopy) FW Imperial book had steel inch equivalents for their armor. A Leman is tough, but its like German Tiger tough, not War of the Worlds Tripod tough. They could defintiely be cracked by modern earth militaries.

I'm not saying TOWs are better than IG equivalents. I'm saying they are comparable to certain equivalents and could use those stats (you know if you actually wanted to play this). You could even bifurcate. Javelins as IG missile launchers with eq. stats and TOWs representing lascannon heavy weapons. Tows could be limited to the humvees or transports (even count a TOW as a hunter killer)

I don't entirely take IA measurements seriously, myself. The Land Raider in specific is just... bad.

Melissia wrote:I don't entirely take IA measurements seriously, myself. The Land Raider in specific is just... bad.

You can't take anything seriously. Marines use swords. Please.

Sure I can. I take Marines using swords quite seriously when those swords have power fields that disrupt matter on the molecular level allowing them to cut through any armor. Even chainswords make sense, if they're futuristic ones-- monomolecular edged teeth, much more powerful and efficient motors and battery packs, reversible teeth, etc. The ones in-universe are much thinner than the models, I should note. This combined with the insanely effective Astartes armor, it makes sense that they'd have swords, especially given how many enemies of the Imperium are capable of getting into hand to hand combat to begin with.

Melissia wrote:Sure I can. I take Marines using swords quite seriously when those swords have power fields that disrupt matter on the molecular level allowing them to cut through any armor. Even chainswords make sense, if they're futuristic ones-- monomolecular edged teeth, much more powerful and efficient motors and battery packs, reversible teeth, etc. The ones in-universe are much thinner than the models, I should note. This combined with the insanely effective Astartes armor, it makes sense that they'd have swords, especially given how many enemies of the Imperium are capable of getting into hand to hand combat to begin with.

Well as most don't have power weapons thats great but...not relevant. A gun is better. Heavily armored is heavily armoed but a gun is still better.

Chainswords are cool right up to the moment you use a chainsaw on anything. The kick back reaction makes it unsuitable.

...if there was a scale war..

barack just hits the panic button and nukes go everywhere..

no match for the tau.. but orkiez would get pwned..

There's always more Orks. Always.

Im just curious why the standard troop has a ccw and a pistol in addition to his longarm. What is the reasoning for this?

Because I'm going off of what is standard equipment from what I can tell. The Guard may not give their common infantry laspistols as standard issue, but the US Army does give a sidearm. As for CCWs, AFAIK most army units do have knives/bayonets of some sort that can be used as a CCW. You'd have to ask those that were in the military to confirm it though.



SO! Current changes:

Armor save removed
Adjusting the LMG to R30", S3 AP- Assault 3
Adding Light Mortar Teams
Adding various vehicles (I'll have to add them in one at a time, working on internal balance as well as external)

Anything else I need to add in? I'm thinking USMC as elites choices.

You could limit to normal attacks though as they're not trained to board like pirates-although epic cool. Yarrrghh!!!

True, but I can't make them too ill-equipped or they'd be overpriced and I'd have to give them even LESS than four points per model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I think the LMG should be R36" S3 AP6 Heavy 3, so that it's actually worth five points for upgrading... and it's not really described as a weapon you can use on the move.