Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

jp400 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Melissia, Kevlar is a truley wicked material that's brought the modern Fighting soldiers survivabilty to an all time high. Unfortunatley, combat concussions are also at an al time high. The armour almost always survives but the man beneath can take only so much.
In would argur that Kevlar is actually better than an IG flak jacket. Also a M1A1 Abrams is better than a Leman Russ. An Abrams armour would be 14 14 13

Agreed.

Thinking about it I would honestly say that an Abrams would kick the snot out of a Leman Russ any day of the week. Mainly cause the Abrams can move and fire ALL its guns at max speed and that squadrens can split fire!! Rofl

yes, and fire that main cannon many miles. In fact most things in the US army are more advanced than the IG. The IG is about being reliable and easy to produce. They are like the AK-47 made into an actual army. Not pretty or advanced but they do win wars.

jp400 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Melissia, Kevlar is a truley wicked material that's brought the modern Fighting soldiers survivabilty to an all time high. Unfortunatley, combat concussions are also at an al time high. The armour almost always survives but the man beneath can take only so much.
In would argur that Kevlar is actually better than an IG flak jacket. Also a M1A1 Abrams is better than a Leman Russ. An Abrams armour would be 14 14 13

Agreed.

Thinking about it I would honestly say that an Abrams would kick the snot out of a Leman Russ any day of the week. Mainly cause the Abrams can move and fire ALL its guns at max speed and that squadrens can split fire!! Rofl

Now that is true, you make the M1 a fast in unit type.

A .50 cal would be a Heavy Stubber. A SAW would be more like:

Rng36 S3 AP6 Assault 3

Seriously? You can't equate a modern military to a GW game, especially in the way they fight. Especially since a combined arms approach is the way of today, let alone the way of the future. You wouldn't be looking at just one branch of service as everything is currently integrated.


I'm not sure how to scale "engage with air-to-air missiles outside of visual range", but an F16 with AWACS support can kill enemy aircraft before it even sees them.

The tanks would have a range in the several hundreds of inches, and a hit ratio of around 90% while moving at top speed, with a SABOT round that would destroy most enemy tanks in seconds.

Forget the IG business of "we put our artillery within striking distance!". Artillery can strike from several kilometers away. We're talking salvos of around 16 rounds, impacting 4 at a time, with barrages seconds apart.



In short, any modern military would completely obliterate any 40k fictional entity should it decide to manifest itself in real life and request such a butt kicking. In game terms, ground units would enter from reserve only after 5 turns of punishing artillery and a severe beating by air and naval assets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:




yes, and fire that main cannon many miles. In fact most things in the US army are more advanced than the IG. The IG is about being reliable and easy to produce. They are like the AK-47 made into an actual army. Not pretty or advanced but they do win wars.

What war have the Russians won since they adopted the AK47 aside from bullying a few former satellite states?

I can't believe that people still try to argue that our modern army is greater than anything in 40k. Really, it baffles me.

Kevlar > Flak Armor?
Abrams > Leman Russ?

Everything in 40k is made of space materials and shoots space bullets. A lasgun will blow your arm off and it's str 3.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.

Tell me, do you wear kevlar boots? Kevlar gauntlets? Kevlar sleeves? A kevlar helmet? Kevlar shoulder pads?

No, until a couple of years ago, the standard US Infantryman's body armor protects ONLY the front chest and abdomen area. Meanwhile, the standard Imperial Guard Infantryman's body armor protects the feet, legs, hands, arms, head, back, shoulders, etc.

And furthermore, despite covering MORE area, Flak armor is LIGHTER than the body armor used by the US Army. Even the most recent version, the largest variant of the Improved Outer Tactical Vest, which DOES cover more (back, front, side, groin, and collar), doesn't cover as much as the Flak armor, and furthermore it weighs thirty five pounds. This does not include the helmet, boots, or other gear that must be carried.

Flak Armor-- an entire SUIT of Flak Armor including boots, greaves, front / back / side plates, pauldrons, gauntlets, AND helmet-- weighs 24 pounds. Which covers MORE of the body.

Flak Armor is actually quite advanced, made of layers of impact-absorbent ablative material that is especially useful against blasts and shrapnel.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Seriously? You can't equate a modern military to a GW game, especially in the way they fight. Especially since a combined arms approach is the way of today, let alone the way of the future. You wouldn't be looking at just one branch of service as everything is currently integrated.


I'm not sure how to scale "engage with air-to-air missiles outside of visual range", but an F16 with AWACS support can kill enemy aircraft before it even sees them.

The tanks would have a range in the several hundreds of inches, and a hit ratio of around 90% while moving at top speed, with a SABOT round that would destroy most enemy tanks in seconds.

Forget the IG business of "we put our artillery within striking distance!". Artillery can strike from several kilometers away. We're talking salvos of around 16 rounds, impacting 4 at a time, with barrages seconds apart.



In short, any modern military would completely obliterate any 40k fictional entity should it decide to manifest itself in real life and request such a butt kicking. In game terms, ground units would enter from reserve only after 5 turns of punishing artillery and a severe beating by air and naval assets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:




yes, and fire that main cannon many miles. In fact most things in the US army are more advanced than the IG. The IG is about being reliable and easy to produce. They are like the AK-47 made into an actual army. Not pretty or advanced but they do win wars.

What war have the Russians won since they adopted the AK47 aside from bullying a few former satellite states?

You are equating life with the table-top game. The table-top game is constrained by a number of factors (for instance, table size and game balance), and is thus entirely unrepresentative of the fluff. If you equate 40k FLUFF with real-world counterparts, you quickly realize that modern units are entirely outclassed. Leman Russ tanks are moving across the battlefield at fairly high speeds, laying down firepower entirely capable of obliterating modern units without a pause, in all directions, carrying armour sufficient to shrug off anything we have today. Imperial Guard artillery is capable of striking on target from many, many miles away, and they also possess the absolutely unparalleled advantage of fire support from orbit, in the shape of multi-megaton nuclear, plasma or antimatter warheads, energy beams, and kinetic weaponry capable of devastating entire continents or merely several square miles, as they please. None of which they have any qualms about using.

To add to this, the Imperial Guard themselves are accustomed and trained to fight monstrosities our military would crap themselves in fear while running away from, and have the services of powerful psykers, not to mention the fact that the Imperial Guard contains many times as many soldiers are there are currently people on the planet.

To sum up; one-on-one IG soldiers would destroy modern soldiers, en masse the IG rolls over any modern military you care to name without pause, and when considering other support factors the only thing to do in an Earth vs. IG fight would be to commit suicide before the Inquisition kicked down the door.

"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, we've spotted a 1,500 point force of big green people driving ramshackle pickup trucks carrying guns made out of nuts, bolts, and lead pipes"

"Solid copy PBR Streetgang, relay threat location"

"Roger Almighty, location grid 12A, 32R, request support"

"Copy PBR Streetgang, package inbound, have a nice day"


16 155mm rounds later.

"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, problem solved, thanks"

NuggzTheNinja wrote:"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, we've spotted a 1,500 point force of big green people driving ramshackle pickup trucks carrying guns made out of nuts, bolts, and lead pipes"

"Solid copy PBR Streetgang, relay threat location"

"Roger Almighty, location grid 12A, 32R, request support"

"Copy PBR Streetgang, package inbound, have a nice day"


16 155mm rounds later.

"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, problem solved, thanks"

I just stopped breathing I laughed so hard!!!! Awesome. Still, and no offense so Melissia whose fandexes are awesome, I think that making or even equating the modern army to anything 40000 years from now is insane. I equate the Imperial Guard to something of a super modern, backward (oxy-moron) army. It is so freaken huge that everything is expendable. The US army today on the other hand has been so obsessed with survivability that we are currently trying to replace soldiers with robots.

Not to seem heartless and extremely politically incorrect (I'm a amatuer historian so bare with me) but the Iraq and Afghan wars have not been very costly. More men and women were killed in one moth of fighting (June) in WWII than the 7 + years the US and allies have been in Iraq/Afghanistan. Unfortunately for the soldiers of the Imperial Guard, the commanders of the 40k universe are not as concerned with human life; far less than todays equivalants.

Cool idea Melissia, but unfortunately too many problems will arise between the strangeness of today's facts vs the fiction of 40k.
Happy Memorial Day everyone!

More likely, you'd find that Orks would suddenly strike from space without warning, dropping in shielded Roks onto population centers and military bases and devastating an entire continent in quick order with millions of Orks pouring into the planet unhindered due to our lack of space-based protection. And that's assuming they didn't have a teleporter with them, in which case we're totally screwed.

Everyone underestimates Orks it seems, and yet they are the most successful race in the galaxy. Huh.

There's a slight advantage to being able to being able to survive and thrive in a warzone, plus the fast reproduction helps. Oh, and Force Fields, every trooper toting a .50 calibre machine gun, and incredible morale.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, we've spotted a 1,500 point force of big green people driving ramshackle pickup trucks carrying guns made out of nuts, bolts, and lead pipes"

"Solid copy PBR Streetgang, relay threat location"

"Roger Almighty, location grid 12A, 32R, request support"

"Copy PBR Streetgang, package inbound, have a nice day"


16 155mm rounds later.

"Almighty, PBR Streetgang, they have some sort of force-fiel..arrrgh!"

Not to mention, Ork technology is incredible compared to ours.

I can lend some insight about mortar systems, being a former 11-C (indirect fire infantryman).

There are 3 main types of mortars that new 11-C recruits are initially trained on: the 60mm M224 (light mortar), the 81mm M252 (medium mortar), and the 107 M30 -120mm M120 (heavy mortars).

Light mortars can be fired by as few as a single soldier, though more often it is crewed by 3. It also is not necessary to use a sight and bipod configuration with the M224, as you can shoot it "handheld", using your thumb as a crude sighting device. It is the most easily transportable of the mortars, and is frequently assigned to Light Infantry or Airborne units.

Medium mortars necessitate a minimum crew of 3 personnel, though they are normally operated with at least 4, but more usually 5, soldiers. The mortar breaks down into 4 major pieces for transport: the baseplate, the cannon, the mount (bipod), and the sighting device. These can be divided up among the load-bearing gear of the mortar team for transport, and teams are trained to set up or tear down their mortars in under a minute under battlefield conditions. For these systems, a fire-control NCO gives out firing solutions based on coordinates from a grid map, usually determined my a Fire-Control computer. There are a multitude of different rounds mortars may use for various battlefield purposes, from high explosive to white phosphorous, to illuminating "STAR" rounds. Recently, due to advances in IR "Night-Vision" gear, it is a common fire mission to fire illuminating rounds that only are visible in the infra-red spectrum. The M252 is usually the heaviest mortar to be dropped with Airborne infantry units.

The heavy mortars are often mounted in vehicles, due to their heavy weight. The M30 can be ground-mounted, but it suffers from a lack of accuracy due to the shifting of the baseplate as recoil moves it from its original position. Same as the M252, the M30 used a five-man crew to fire the weapon. In a vehicle mount, it remains the same, although two of the crew are the vehicle's pilots.




That's as much as I can remember at the moment, here are a couple good reference pages for you to peruse for useful information on ranges and whatnot (its been too long for me to remember those now, but they all could reach in excess of 3000 meters):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M224_mortar

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mortar/M252.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M30_mortar



Any more questions about mortars and I'm your guy, feel free to ask!

So mortars would essentially require their own squad. Probably a mortar squad with sergeant and nine members, and three mortars in the squad... not perfect I imagine, but would that represent a mortar battery well enough?

I'm mostly concerned with how best to represent them in-game.

Mortars aren't organized into squads... they are more like artillery. They are organized into "Sections" of 2-5 teams or crews, like your concept of "battery", 2 or more sections per platoon. Sometimes if the mission requires it, a team can be attached to a normal infantry squad (which is why we had to be trained as normal infantry first, then we received an additional two weeks of mortar training before we were done with basic and moved on to our units).

It really depends on the type of mortar you are using. Light mortars would definitely work how you described, but the medium and heavy mortars would more likely consist of 5 man teams, 3-5 teams per section (battery). With the limit of 3 slots in a force org category, they would fit in the heavy support choice well, or in elites at least. You could either do them like the IG codex, as a multi-wound single model with a huge 60mm base, or use them as they used to be in the 4th ed codex and count it as an artillery gun. You could run it with 3-5 models. Adding extra models would help for wound allocation, but should cost a couple extra points each.

Platoon Forward Observer
-- Uses Army Soldier's equipment and stats, and gains the following:
-- May count as Line of Sight for indirect fire weapons.
-- Artillery Strike: Range Unlimited, S9 AP2, Ordnance Barrage 1 Blast, Twin-Linked


this unit should be change to Scout Unit/ Forward Observer, I was never called that. Scoutsout

Why would a year 2000 artillery strike be superior to a basilisk in rules.


Give one good reason, I dare you.

Hrm. I thought the bassy was AP1. Regardless, it's not intended to be. I'll change it to AP3 whenever I make the edit to include the mortar section.

That's it. I'm making Codex: Primitives and Natives

I find it ironic that 38,000 years in the future the AA12 still hasn't been put into production. In 40k terms, it would be:
strength ap range Type
5 6 24" (200m) Assault 3

Yet the normal, relatively rare IG shotgun is only s3, has no ap, slow rate of fire, no range and is generally alot worse than a modern one.
Just like the mortar:
REAL mortar:
strength ap range type
6 6 72" hevy 1, blast, barrage

And our .50 cal mg:
strength ap range
5 5 96" (1500m)
vs the crappy heavy stubber it's clear we have the edge when it comes to common small arms weapons

If you're trying to compare the military capabilities of the 40K universe to the modern world you're doing it wrong. It is an explicitly fantastical setting, full of larger than life heroes and whole pile of stuff that is cool even if it makes no sense. It has no scale for measuring the strength of weapons and effectiveness of armour in the setting compared to modern equivalents, because it's not an issue the game worries about on any level. It worries about how cool it is when a guy in really big armour and a powerfist attacks a big daemon thingie.

At a games club I was at one, time a fellow asked if Napoleon's army might go against Sauron, after about five minutes of silliness the best answer I've ever heard in my life was given - 'the answer is don't ask silly questions'.


That said, I like the idea of US codex. But it shouldn't be geared to play against 40K armies, but it could be geared to fight other modern forces equivalents. That'd be an interesting project.

Vladsimpaler wrote:That's it. I'm making Codex: Primitives and Natives

That will make Codex Ferel World .

Shouldnt a dedicated marksman be at least BS4?

As for orks invading earth, the poor orks wouldnt stand a chance.
40k never use nukes to obliterate ork strongpoints and never, ever use technology and science to come up with immediate solutions to a problem.
Our scientists would tinker up an ork/algae nerv gas in one week (probably just modifying existing algae weed killers etc) and the orks would be a memory.

Heck even the necrons planned on making anti ork nerv agents in that xenology book from GW.


Mellissa:
As for the US army codex its a kickass idea but I would like to see an USMC codex more.

felixthecat345 wrote:I find it ironic that 38,000 years in the future the AA12 still hasn't been put into production. In 40k terms, it would be:
strength ap range Type
5 6 24" (200m) Assault 3

Yet the normal, relatively rare IG shotgun is only s3, has no ap, slow rate of fire, no range and is generally alot worse than a modern one.
Just like the mortar:
REAL mortar:
strength ap range type
6 6 72" hevy 1, blast, barrage

And our .50 cal mg:
strength ap range
5 5 96" (1500m)
vs the crappy heavy stubber it's clear we have the edge when it comes to common small arms weapons

...you almost had me there. You almost made me believe that your post was honest. I was just about to berate you for your idiocy, but your sarcasm came through in the end.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Seriously? You can't equate a modern military to a GW game, especially in the way they fight. Especially since a combined arms approach is the way of today, let alone the way of the future. You wouldn't be looking at just one branch of service as everything is currently integrated.


I'm not sure how to scale "engage with air-to-air missiles outside of visual range", but an F16 with AWACS support can kill enemy aircraft before it even sees them.

The tanks would have a range in the several hundreds of inches, and a hit ratio of around 90% while moving at top speed, with a SABOT round that would destroy most enemy tanks in seconds.

Forget the IG business of "we put our artillery within striking distance!". Artillery can strike from several kilometers away. We're talking salvos of around 16 rounds, impacting 4 at a time, with barrages seconds apart.



In short, any modern military would completely obliterate any 40k fictional entity should it decide to manifest itself in real life and request such a butt kicking. In game terms, ground units would enter from reserve only after 5 turns of punishing artillery and a severe beating by air and naval assets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:




yes, and fire that main cannon many miles. In fact most things in the US army are more advanced than the IG. The IG is about being reliable and easy to produce. They are like the AK-47 made into an actual army. Not pretty or advanced but they do win wars.

What war have the Russians won since they adopted the AK47 aside from bullying a few former satellite states?

The Vietnam War.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Vietnam War.

a) Vietnam wasn't a War, it was a Conflict.
b) Russia didn't fight in Vietnam to any appreciable degree (supposedly they had advisers, most of whom died advising).
c) Vietnam wasn't technically lost due to the battles, nor was it technically lost. The US just sort of left due to diplomatic reasons at home (that's all I'm going to say without getting into a horrible argument).

On Real Life - 40k :

The main problem is that things we have in the 21st century can't equate to what is present in the 41st Millennium (there isn't even a confirmed relation from our date system to there's, so 40k could be even further into the future!). Today, our uniforms are made of cloth, in some fluff (mostly in the older fluff), the uniforms of the Imperial Guard are made out of a resilient, battle worthy material that is treated solely as a 6+ save (so compared to Orks, as good as big chunks of metal strapped to the body). The "flak armor" is the heavier bits that cover the vital organs and head. Also, there is a distinct lack of congruity. Look at Steel Legion Troopers, which wear only heavy looking garments, and they are reflected as having a 5+ save as well.

An Abrams may seem superior to a Leman Russ, but you are forgetting scaling. The armor of a Russ is not the steel and composite materials we know today, but something entirely more rugged. An Abrams round could easily be said to simple pink off a Russ, while a Battle Cannon shot could tear clean through an Abrams. There just isn't a reasonable way to make an equation.

As for M16 to Lasgun, the fluff is pretty clear about the power of a lasgun. Lasguns are not only pretty powerful, but they cause great amounts of damage, causing limbs to be sheared off, chests to explode out, etc... The M16 and it's 5.56mm round don't cause such wounds, a lasgun sounds like it causes wounds similar to a .50cal round at least!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:A US soldier's armour is pretty similiar to a Cadian and actually alot better than all the other regiments (Catachan's wera tank tops). Kevlar is good. Seriously look who has 6+ saves: Dark Eldar wyches and orks who appear to use pots and pans to make their armour.

No, kevlar is made to slow down solid projectiles, nothing else, no heat dissipation or anything or the sort.

Orks tshirts give them a save because orks latent psychic field and their belief that it does.

Cadian/catachan flak/tank tops are made of 38k years from now super stc space material that makes our armor absolutely useless.


Also i would heavily doubt anything we have short of a tomahawk cruise missile would be on par with a krak missile. Even a javelin would probably only be str 4-5 in 40k terms. A rhino could get hammered by an abrams for hours with no ill effects.

Also, they should all be ws2, bs3 is ok, but us army is trained to NOT get into hand to hand, their CQC that they teach is mostly theatre, not very useful in an actual melee.

Also, Catachans are illogical to begin with. Cadian/Steel Legion armor is a better comparison . Flak armor is made of, to quote Dark Heresy: "Layers of impact-absorbent, ablative material". Ablative material is designed to absorb the energy of laser fire by burning away instead of being burned through-- IE, the top layer of the armor theoretically absorbs all of the laser/blast energy instead of letting part of it get through to burn the flesh.

I actually started my IG army because I wanted a rough approximation of a conventional military unit. That's all they are, approximations.

Skinnattittar wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Vietnam War.

a) Vietnam wasn't a War, it was a Conflict.
b) Russia didn't fight in Vietnam to any appreciable degree (supposedly they had advisers, most of whom died advising).
c) Vietnam wasn't technically lost due to the battles, nor was it technically lost. The US just sort of left due to diplomatic reasons at home (that's all I'm going to say without getting into a horrible argument).

On Real Life - 40k :

The main problem is that things we have in the 21st century can't equate to what is present in the 41st Millennium (there isn't even a confirmed relation from our date system to there's, so 40k could be even further into the future!). Today, our uniforms are made of cloth, in some fluff (mostly in the older fluff), the uniforms of the Imperial Guard are made out of a resilient, battle worthy material that is treated solely as a 6+ save (so compared to Orks, as good as big chunks of metal strapped to the body). The "flak armor" is the heavier bits that cover the vital organs and head. Also, there is a distinct lack of congruity. Look at Steel Legion Troopers, which wear only heavy looking garments, and they are reflected as having a 5+ save as well.

An Abrams may seem superior to a Leman Russ, but you are forgetting scaling. The armor of a Russ is not the steel and composite materials we know today, but something entirely more rugged. An Abrams round could easily be said to simple pink off a Russ, while a Battle Cannon shot could tear clean through an Abrams. There just isn't a reasonable way to make an equation.

As for M16 to Lasgun, the fluff is pretty clear about the power of a lasgun. Lasguns are not only pretty powerful, but they cause great amounts of damage, causing limbs to be sheared off, chests to explode out, etc... The M16 and it's 5.56mm round don't cause such wounds, a lasgun sounds like it causes wounds similar to a .50cal round at least!

The Vietnam War wasn't a war. Alright, then tell that to the guys who fought there. I'm done talking about this because the level of stupidy is just going to piss me off.