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Alpharius wrote:Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.

But there's no drama without friction! No plot without conflict!

Face it, man... coexistence is boring.

SaintHazard wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.

But there's no drama without friction! No plot without conflict!

Face it, man... coexistence is boring.

so how to the tau do it?

raptor8 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.

But there's no drama without friction! No plot without conflict!

Face it, man... coexistence is boring.

so how to the tau do it?

Mind control. Also, having a common enemy (everyone else in the entire universe) helps.

Actually I think the Tau only manage to do it through plot armor and the fact that they're such a tiny nation to begin with.

Actually, to be serious, it's been hinted that the Tau are so devoted to the Greater Good through mind control. The Vespids are only able to communicate with the Tau through their communion helms, which are strongly implied in the codex to be some form of brainwashing device (as soon as the Vespid started using them, they basically accepted their place in the Tau Empire with exactly no resistance).

And Farsight is said to have left the Empire due to having learned some sinister secret about the Ethereals. That's as much as is written in the codex, but one of the most popular theories is that he learned about said mind control and/or brainwashing being used not just on the Vespid, but on most of the Tau themselves.

It fits, and it explains everything, from the Greater Good to the Ethereals being the ruling caste, to the way the Ethereals ended the Mont'au, and so on.

SaintHazard wrote:Actually, to be serious, it's been hinted that the Tau are so devoted to the Greater Good through mind control. The Vespids are only able to communicate with the Tau through their communion helms, which are strongly implied in the codex to be some form of brainwashing device (as soon as the Vespid started using them, they basically accepted their place in the Tau Empire with exactly no resistance).

And Farsight is said to have left the Empire due to having learned some sinister secret about the Ethereals. That's as much as is written in the codex, but one of the most popular theories is that he learned about said mind control and/or brainwashing being used not just on the Vespid, but on most of the Tau themselves.

It fits, and it explains everything, from the Greater Good to the Ethereals being the ruling caste, to the way the Ethereals ended the Mont'au, and so on.

makes sense

Man. Can't 40k have just ONE good guy?

SaintHazard wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.

But there's no drama without friction! No plot without conflict!

Face it, man... coexistence is boring.

I completely agree with Alpharius (as I often do...), however, coexistence doesn't work on the internet. On the internet, you (self) are always right.

Cantus wrote:Man. Can't 40k have just ONE good guy?

Pick a side. That side is good because you picked it.

Cantus wrote:Man. Can't 40k have just ONE good guy?

Unacceptable.

See, they brought the Tau in to be that good guy.

Everyone hated them as good guys.

So they made Farsight grimdark as hell, brought in Shadowsun, gave the Tau dictatorial overtones, and made them infinitely more awesome.

Good guys have no place in the 40k universe.

Well yeah. But I like my way better...

Oh, believe you me, the =][= happens to be one of my favorite factions in the 40k universe.

I just don't like the way they're represented on the tabletop.

When we get 1) a decent =][= codex that's seperate from the SoB and GK or 2) a Deathwatch codex, I will start playing =][= in a second.

Yep. And to get along with spelling errors and not be stuck-up jerks.

Vaktathi wrote:

Tonytiger89 wrote:For me, hands down the marines if we are talking about the fluffy marines, not the toned down miniature marines. Don't get me wrong I still love playing with the Miniature marines, but I find the fluffy marines portrayed in various books to sound much more beefy and tough.

That also depends on what fluff. The 5E Space Marine codex? 3E codex Space Marines? Imperial Armour space marines? Brothers of the Snake god level invincible super titan mega gigantor space marines? Horus Heresy space marines?

They are all very different from one another. Sometimes Space Marines are just elite, ridiculously well equipped guardsmen, sometimes they are unstoppable plot armored mega mary sues, and everything in between.

I can see your point, I was just referring to how in the books I seem to get the impression marines are much more tough than there Tabletop equivalent. But I assume this is because if the miniatures were like this you would have the best part of 5 marines in a 1500 point game, which doesn't seem like much fun.

No, it's more like the "fluff" you're reading gives Marines an oil tanker sized load of plot armor.

However, other fluff is quite different. For example, Commissar Ciaphas Cain killed two Khornate Berzerkers in one book, and neither battle actually lasted very long. The second one was injured perhaps, but he still got away from both of them without a scratch on him, parrying their weapons and toying with them until he could get in a situation with which they could be finished off. And if I'm not mistaken the Gaunt's Ghosts books have them killing chaos Marines regularly...

Melissia wrote:No, it's more like the "fluff" you're reading gives Marines an oil tanker sized load of plot armor.

However, other fluff is quite different. For example, Commissar Ciaphas Cain killed two Khornate Berzerkers in one book, and neither battle actually lasted very long. The second one was injured perhaps, but he still got away from both of them without a scratch on him, parrying their weapons and toying with them until he could get in a situation with which they could be finished off. And if I'm not mistaken the Gaunt's Ghosts books have them killing chaos Marines regularly...

Okay, dudette, the moment you say "Ciaphas Cain," you are never again allowed to use the words "plot armor" as a criticism.

I'm forced to agree. Condemning marines for plot armor and then citing Caiphas Cain as a counter-example seems a bit incongruous.

SaintHazard wrote:Actually, to be serious, it's been hinted that the Tau are so devoted to the Greater Good through mind control. The Vespids are only able to communicate with the Tau through their communion helms, which are strongly implied in the codex to be some form of brainwashing device (as soon as the Vespid started using them, they basically accepted their place in the Tau Empire with exactly no resistance).

And Farsight is said to have left the Empire due to having learned some sinister secret about the Ethereals. That's as much as is written in the codex, but one of the most popular theories is that he learned about said mind control and/or brainwashing being used not just on the Vespid, but on most of the Tau themselves.

It fits, and it explains everything, from the Greater Good to the Ethereals being the ruling caste, to the way the Ethereals ended the Mont'au, and so on.

This is further expanded upon in Xenology, the dissected Ethereal is discovered to have a special organ that secretes extremely powerful pheromone (or something similar) that are postulated to be their source of influence over their subjects.

Actually that was kinda the point... without their plot armor, Marines are tough but beatable by any other force in 40k. I used the Ciaphas Cain book as an example because it's the first to spring to mind where they were not given so much plot armor (And yes, I know Cain himself wears an ocean of it).

Melissia wrote:Actually that was kinda the point... without their plot armor, Marines are tough but beatable by any other force in 40k. I used the Ciaphas Cain book as an example because it's the first to spring to mind where they were not given so much plot armor (And yes, I know Cain himself wears an ocean of it).

So you're suggesting that their training, genetic modifications, power armour, equipment, resources and ability counts for very little?

Just Dave wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually that was kinda the point... without their plot armor, Marines are tough but beatable by any other force in 40k. I used the Ciaphas Cain book as an example because it's the first to spring to mind where they were not given so much plot armor (And yes, I know Cain himself wears an ocean of it).

So you're suggesting that their training, genetic modifications, power armour, equipment, resources and ability counts for very little?

It would be more accurate to say (and this is me disagreeing with Melissia, not you) that those factors count for very little on the tabletop, but are properly represented in the fluff.

Cain beating up a few Chaos Marines is nothing more than an extension of Cain's own plot armor.

Melissia, of course the protagonist is going to be able to beat anything thrown at him/her.

If the protagonist is a Space Marine, then it's going to be a Space Marine that's getting the plot armor.

If the protagonist is an Imperial Commissar (especially an incompetent and cowardly one) then it's going to be an Imperial Commissar getting the plot armor.

Oh yeah, I recognise the traits and frequency of plot armour, however I disagree with Melissia's suggestion that A) that is all Space Marines have and B) it is more common in Space Marines.
I've read my share of Imperial Guard books to know that plot armour effects every protagonist, as Saint has said. The only real place I see repeated diversion from plot armour is in the Horus Heresy series.

That's because during the Horus Heresy, if the character has a name, there's about a 50% chance he's dead by the end of the book.

Some people just really don't like Space Marines, and that is OK.

It does tend to lead threads into strange spirals of denial, outrage and foot stomping, and that's a bit less OK.

When the post that kicks the whole thing off is:

"What do you think is better, Imperial Guard or Space Marines ?"

well, we were bound for trouble from the start.

Questions like these are inherently quite silly, as the background states that BOTH are necessary and most times function quite well in tandem.

In fact, when they don't, usually it is because one of the two involved have in fact turned traitor.

SaintHazard wrote:It would be more accurate to say (and this is me disagreeing with Melissia, not you) that those factors count for very little on the tabletop, but are properly represented in the fluff.

They ARE represented on the fluff. A lot of Marine players seem to ignore how big a difference the MEQ statline actually makes and whine about how fragile their units are.

They aren't.

Hell, just having S4/T4/I4 instead of GEQ (like Scouts versus Veterans) means you're far more likely to survive the assault, or even win it, against anything. And that doesn't even take into consideration power armor (I play both Guard and Sisters, the difference between power armor and flak armor-- or even carapace armor-- is huge), WS, BS, ATSKNF, leadership, free grenades (Both kinds), free bolt pistols, etc.

You mean the tabletop, not the fluff, but yes, your point is solid. So they're not ignored on the tabletop, granted, but I think Space Marines are even bigger, stronger, and harder to kill in fluff.

In fluff we have examples of Space Marines living through such things as:

Getting shot through the heart (they have two).
Getting an arm ripped clean off.
Getting hit in the head with a lasgun blast (helmeted, but still messed Uriel up in Nightbringer to the point where he had to remove said helmet - but then kept on going).
Getting pelted with heavy stubber fire.
Surviving exploding Rhinos.

I could go on.

The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Melissia wrote:No, it's more like the "fluff" you're reading gives Marines an oil tanker sized load of plot armor.

However, other fluff is quite different. For example, Commissar Ciaphas Cain killed two Khornate Berzerkers in one book, and neither battle actually lasted very long. The second one was injured perhaps, but he still got away from both of them without a scratch on him, parrying their weapons and toying with them until he could get in a situation with which they could be finished off. And if I'm not mistaken the Gaunt's Ghosts books have them killing chaos Marines regularly...

Anytime the Ghosts go up against Chaos Marines, they're at a full regiment strength and the Chaos Marines are generally seen in forces of one or two CSM, with the rarity of more than that seeing the Ghosts with armored support. We're not talking about one or two men cutting their way through legions of CSM--we're talking about full on fireteams of well-trained Guardsmen, heavily armed, going up against one target.

Pretty sure that's representative of the fluff of the Astartes.

SaintHazard wrote:You mean the tabletop, not the fluff, but yes, your point is solid. So they're not ignored on the tabletop, granted, but I think Space Marines are even bigger, stronger, and harder to kill in fluff.

And I disagree. If they get hit by a meltagun or krak missile, they're dead. If a single Marine gets concentrated on by a group of Guardsmen with lasguns, he's dead. The problem is Marine fluff varies widely from source to source, and quite a few sources make sure that Marines are never put in any situation where they would feasibly die anyway-- yeah, they get shot through the heart, but they still live cause they have two. That's feasible, it's the point of having redundant organs in the first place. But how often do you see, in books, Marines getting hit with a battlecannon shot, pounded on by real Guard artillery, or facing off a group of heavily armed Nobz with power weapons and power klawz ready to tear them apart? Pretty much never, because that wouldn't fit the story very often. And so, many stories pad the Marines and put them in "Safe but cool" situations, so that they can make them seem better than they really are. Besides, a "casualty" in 40k isn't necessarily a death, just a Marine who was temporarily taken out of the action.

And I don't buy the more ludicrous over-the-top fluff, it's stupid and exists for nothing more than to spank off their favorite faction.

Melissia wrote:yeah, they get shot through the heart, but they still live cause they have two. That's feasible, it's the point of having redundant organs in the first place.

Actually, this is a bit off - and I know it's not usually a good idea to apply real-world science to the 40k universe, but regardless of how many hearts you have, if one of them is disabled (or worse, perforated) you're most likely going to go into shock and die shortly thereafter. The idea of giving a Space Marine two hearts so that one of them can pick up the slack if the other stops working is kind of ridiculous.

Although, I believe you said at one point you're a biology major, so you'd already know that.

In any case, my point was not that they have redundant organs but that they can survive having one stop working.

I was going off of the idea of believability rather than pure science. Seeing as so many people seemed to hate the idea of applying science

You're forgetting the fact that when Astartes take massive damage to the point of going into shock, their bodies start glanding massive amounts of adrenaline to counteract it for 5-6 minutes.