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Okay, so what would you say the ratio actually is?

If a Guardsman costs five widgets, does a Space Marine, like I said, cost five thousand? Fifty thousand?

If a Guardsman costs five widgets, and a Space Marine costs five hundred thousand widgets, the Space Marines, who are outnumbered by Guardsmen at least a billion to one, are still much cheaper on the whole.

Say there are a trillion Guardsmen, who cost five widgets each. That's five trillion widgets.

Say there are a million Marines, who cost five hundred thousand widgets each. That five hundred billion widgets.

Five trillion > five hundred billion.

And I'm being EXTREMELY generous regarding the cost of Space Marines, they probably don't cost five hundred thousand widgets each.

SaintHazard wrote:Okay, so what would you say the ratio actually is?

If a Guardsman costs five widgets, does a Space Marine, like I said, cost five thousand? Fifty thousand?

If a Guardsman costs five widgets, and a Space Marine costs five hundred thousand widgets, the Space Marines, who are outnumbered by Guardsmen at least a billion to one, are still much cheaper on the whole.

Say there are a trillion Guardsmen, who cost five widgets each. That's five trillion widgets.

Say there are a million Marines, who cost five hundred thousand widgets each. That five hundred billion widgets.

Five trillion > five hundred billion.

And I'm being EXTREMELY generous regarding the cost of Space Marines, they probably don't cost five hundred thousand widgets each.

Cost? Space marines fight for the honor, not money.....
Guard still get paid.....

So its clearly :

A few SM ( bring their own stuff and do not expect payment )
vs
Tons of IG ( get paid, need supplies of the muntiorum, need transports of the imperial navy,..)

Wars arent cheap, and IG isn't for free.

Where SM are like vassals (who sustain themselves financially) to the emperor, IG needs the Imperium to cover their cost after basic equipment. Recrutement worlds do not finance them afterwards, they just deliver as tithe "as is".
Mechanicum units would also come without additional cost.

You can't just stack up the total cost of each force to determine their economy since that assumes that each force contributes just as much. The Guard outnumber Space Marines by over a thousand to one, but the Imperium also relies on its Guardsmen to a greater extent. Marines don't have the numbers to even contemplate providing for the entire military needs of the Imperium, while the Guard often do have to go it alone, only receiving Marine support if the campaign catches a chapter's attention.
According to Rogal Dorn, Space Marines are worth roughly ten times their number of other troops.

Melissia wrote:

Just Dave wrote:As to what is too tough for the Guard? I'm not sure, maybe rapidly crippling and overwhelming entire planets? The Nurthene? A planet with flying buggers featured in A Thousand Sons? Orbital Combat? The list goes on...

I ask you, what is too tough, particularly on the offence, for Space Marines?

1: Nope, the Guard are capable of that with the proper strategy (for example, naval bombardment followed by rapid mechanized advance with close artillery support). Space Marines, however, cannot rapidly conquer an entire planet by themselves without committing significant forces-- a single company of Marines isn't really capable of withstanding the attrition necessary to truly conquer a well-defended planet on their own, nevermind suppress a resisting populace. Multiple companies would be necessary to say the least.

2: The Nurthene destroyed themselves after the Imperium pressed them too hard. Hardly a threat capable of dealing with a full fledged Imperial invasion.

3: Hydras and aerospace fighters could deal with them with proper planning.

4: Astartes ships are designed for the sole purpose of deploying Astartes and providing orbital bombardment support when necessary, they are not designed for space combat. The Imperial Navy, however, is designed for space combat, and has far more in firepower and numbers.


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Freelancer48 wrote:And space hulks! Can't forget space hulks! Guardsmen crammed into a space hulk... I'd like to see that!

Space Hulks might be the one place that Astartes are unequivocally better.

1. I didn't realise the Imperial Guard could deploy so rapidly. I forgot they don't have to wait for the orbital bombardment to finish, then use heavy-landers etc. to land vast amounts of fast-moving troops. Whereas the Space Marines can only deploy instantly and rapidly via the likes of drop-pod and teleport. Space Marines - true, can't exactly suppress a populace - but can bring a planet to it's knees with relatively little blood-shed through sheer shock and awe and being able to take on what-ever, wherever.

2. The Nurthene was defending against a full Imperial Invasion. The leader (Natjimara) even admitted they needed the help of Space Marines.

3. While the rest of the Guard do what? There are limited amounts of such guardsmen/vehicles whereas every Space Marine can manage it.

4. I actually meant the likes of boarding actions. Soul Hunter springs to mind.

I think one need only look at the in-game statistics of a Space Marine to see their superiority. Better BS,WS,T,S,I,Sv and leadership. A Space Marine is better than a Guardsman, no doubt about that. Fluff or game.

The Emperor didn't create the Imperial Guard because they were capable of conquering the galaxy. No he created the Space Marines.

I don't recall anyone ever saying this about the Imperial Guard: "They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear."

I don't deny, Space Marines aren't numerous of cheap enough to form the main army of the Imperium, however, they are BETTER than Imperial Guardsmen, they are supposed to be the BEST warriors in the galaxy.
I admit to being biased towards Space Marines, but I'm a reasonable person and will listen to reason, but I can't see a good reason for Imperial Guard being BETTER than Space Marines. They're cheaper, more numerous, better on planet-wide defence etc. but the Space Marines are designed to be the BEST and IMHO they are.

Melissia wrote:

The last thing Marines are is cost efficient. Powerful, skilled, useful perhaps, but not efficient. The Imperium does not keep supplying Marines because they are efficient, they do so out of tradition and religion.

Ugh.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

Freelancer48 wrote:And space hulks! Can't forget space hulks! Guardsmen crammed into a space hulk... I'd like to see that!

I know this comment was made facetiously, but it does cut to the heart of the matter. Space Marines are not designed to be an army fighting huge battles, they are intended to concentrate as much force in one point as possible. A single squad of Grey Knight Terminators in the right place could accomplish what a million IG regiments could not.

Alpharius wrote:
And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

I don't know about the Imperium but GW keeps them around to grab money off of the parents of 10-14 year old male teens.

Seriously, I hate the models. I could tolerate the Sms being the GW posterboys if the models were right. Kinda like what Hits_the_spot is doing with his truescale Art kits. I would quickly own a BT or DA army if GW made and supported models like what he is doing.

I know,*gasp*well known SM hater focusedfire said he would get a SM army. My main problem all along has been the models. I like the concept of beach storming marines being used to establish footholds on fortified worlds and for surgical strikes. It has been the models and the commoness of the armies that have kept me from buying. I could get past the every other army are SMs if the models were inspiring.

focusedfire wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

I don't know about the Imperium but GW keeps them around to grab money off of the parents of 10-14 year old male teens.

Seriously, I hate the models. I could tolerate the Sms being the GW posterboys if the models were right. Kinda like what Hits_the_spot is doing with his truescale Art kits. I would quickly own a BT or DA army if GW made and supported models like what he is doing.

I know,*gasp*well known SM hater focusedfire said he would get a SM army. My main problem all along has been the models. I like the concept of beach storming marines being used to establish footholds on fortified worlds and for surgical strikes. It has been the models and the commoness of the armies that have kept me from buying. I could get past the every other army are SMs if the models were inspiring.

So get some suitably badass-looking models from another franchise and proxy them for Space Marines. There are plenty of good wargames out there with different looks that might fit what you want. If all you hate is the models, get different models.

Alpharius wrote:

Melissia wrote:

The last thing Marines are is cost efficient. Powerful, skilled, useful perhaps, but not efficient. The Imperium does not keep supplying Marines because they are efficient, they do so out of tradition and religion.

Ugh.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

She's right this time, however. The Adeptus Astartes are woefully unefficient in the majority of campaigns that the Imperium wages, at least if they were deployed on their own.

They come into their reputation of being superhuman killing machines when their finesse for seizing objectives unsupported or taking down high value targets like Hive Tyrants, Fire Caste Commanders, or even renegade Astartes is necessary though--the things that the Guard have a tough time tackling without wasting hundreds upon hundreds of lives.

SaintHazard wrote:

Cambak wrote:

ironhand45 wrote:But if the space marine has a power fist, than a lightly armoured or even a leman russ is screwed. But Guard has a buttload of aerial fighters and the only thing that might be able to take out a squadron of fighters is the whirlwind, so its almost balanced out but the Guard might have the advantage

Power fist, say hello to 50 conscripts, 5 to 20 las cannons, and/or up to 100 to 300(if in rapid fire) lasgun shots! You will fail your armor save eventually.

50 conscripts, say hello to my Whirlwind's large blast template.

... where did the conscripts go?!

2" coherency spread, maybe cover, you can shoot at them all 7 turns and that unit will still be there.


And if you want to get into a large template war with IG, I'll be happy to oblige any day of the week. I don't think you'll like the results. Your three whirlwinds against my 3 Manticores or 9 bassy's, lets do this.



In all honesty, from a fluff comparison, the Imperial Guard as a whole is many, many orders of magnitude more powerful than the Space Marines. The vast majority of the Imperium's wars are fought and won by the Imperial Guard and Navy without so much as a single Space Marine boot. There are billions of guardsmen for every Space Marine. SM codex's have routinely compared a Space Marine to be the equal of ten or twelve normal human soldiers, so even with a million Astartes, their actual relative power doesn't even register next to that of the Imperial Guard.

The Emperor didn't create the Imperial Guard because they were capable of conquering the galaxy. No he created the Space Marines

And quickly found he didn't have anywhere near enough, necessitating the creation of the Imperial Army. Then half of those Space Marines turned on him.

As a marines and IG player I feel qualified to have an opinion here.

What the arguments here break down into is that the marines are better at storming yonder fortress in the mountains quickly and cleanly and the IG are better at defending the empire as a whole.

Personally I think an easy way to think about it is could the Space Marines survive without the IG? No, the Imperium would collapse.
Could the IG suvive without the Space Marines? Eh. Debate that as much as you want. The Imperium might shrink but I think the entire Guard could protect it better than the entirety of the Asartes.. Just my opinion.

Although, back the OPs ACTUAL question, depends on what you want. If you want a badass looking army of hard hitting tac marines and dreadnoughts, go sm.
If you want a huge army of mass infantry or devastating armour or both? Go IG.
Personally, I enjoy my valhallans more than the sm. Its more satisfying when regular ole' men stomp out the overwhelming xenos threat than when super humans do.. imho =)

For me, hands down the marines if we are talking about the fluffy marines, not the toned down miniature marines. Don't get me wrong I still love playing with the Miniature marines, but I find the fluffy marines portrayed in various books to sound much more beefy and tough.

Tonytiger89 wrote:For me, hands down the marines if we are talking about the fluffy marines, not the toned down miniature marines. Don't get me wrong I still love playing with the Miniature marines, but I find the fluffy marines portrayed in various books to sound much more beefy and tough.

That also depends on what fluff. The 5E Space Marine codex? 3E codex Space Marines? Imperial Armour space marines? Brothers of the Snake god level invincible super titan mega gigantor space marines? Horus Heresy space marines?

They are all very different from one another. Sometimes Space Marines are just elite, ridiculously well equipped guardsmen, sometimes they are unstoppable plot armored mega mary sues, and everything in between.

Raxmei wrote:You can't just stack up the total cost of each force to determine their economy since that assumes that each force contributes just as much. The Guard outnumber Space Marines by over a thousand to one, but the Imperium also relies on its Guardsmen to a greater extent. Marines don't have the numbers to even contemplate providing for the entire military needs of the Imperium, while the Guard often do have to go it alone, only receiving Marine support if the campaign catches a chapter's attention.
According to Rogal Dorn, Space Marines are worth roughly ten times their number of other troops.

And yet they cost hundreds if not thousands of times more. But they serve their purpose, which is not as the army of the Imperium but the Imperium's special forces to the extreme.

Alpharius wrote:It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

Did I ever say otherwise? No? Then stop insinuating I did. Every thread I post in that involves a discussion about Space Marines in any form ot, you say the same thing... and it's always wrong.

Kanluwen wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Melissia wrote:

The last thing Marines are is cost efficient. Powerful, skilled, useful perhaps, but not efficient. The Imperium does not keep supplying Marines because they are efficient, they do so out of tradition and religion.

Ugh.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

And seriously, the Imperium certainly keeps Marines around for more reasons than just 'tradition and religion'.

She's right this time, however. The Adeptus Astartes are woefully unefficient in the majority of campaigns that the Imperium wages, at least if they were deployed on their own.

They come into their reputation of being superhuman killing machines when their finesse for seizing objectives unsupported or taking down high value targets like Hive Tyrants, Fire Caste Commanders, or even renegade Astartes is necessary though--the things that the Guard have a tough time tackling without wasting hundreds upon hundreds of lives.

Except that's not the part I was calling into question.

Melissia wrote:

Alpharius wrote:It IS OK if people actually... (gasp!)...like Space Marines!

Did I ever say otherwise? No? Then stop insinuating I did. Every thread I post in, you say the same thing, and you're always wrong-- your constant baseless assumptions that I bash people for liking Marines needs to stop.

It would stop if it were true.

Your constant running up the flag pole everything Sisters related at the expense of everything else?

That would be cool if that stopped.

Given the right situation either can sound equally as good as the other. At the end of the day it's down to opinion.

Delving into this efficiency business, both sides have their weak points. Marines being their numbers, while Guard lack in the specialist ability department. The two sides are rather complimentary actually.

Now that is sorted, I think it's time for a group hug.... anyone with me?

Colossal Donkey wrote:Now that is sorted, I think it's time for a group hug.... anyone with me?

While Space Marines individually hug with much greater force and precision, you can't hope to hug the entire Imperium without the countless ranks of the Imperial Guard.

Raxmei wrote:While Space Marines individually hug with much greater force and precision, you can't hope to hug the entire Imperium without the countless ranks of the Imperial Guard.

If I was drinking tea, I would have choked on it. Good show

Raxmei wrote:

Colossal Donkey wrote:Now that is sorted, I think it's time for a group hug.... anyone with me?

While Space Marines individually hug with much greater force and precision, you can't hope to hug the entire Imperium without the countless ranks of the Imperial Guard.

sigged

I'll Just say,

The Imperial guard is: Slow to mobilize, hard to supply, and difficult to keep in line. But they are like a steamroller slowly crushing a huge tube of toothpaste. They Keep pushing intell they win. The only real reasons Imperial guard do not win is, Their Supply Lines Dry up, Reinforcements do not show, or their is an unknown Big problem (the X Factor)

The Space Marines Are: Quick to Form up, pinpoint targets like a Brain Surgeon, and they have an Iron Will. But, They are Unable to deploy for a long term on one planet alone without Support. They are like a demolition team placing charges and destroying key parts of a sky scraper.

Imho if the space marines split up more/ had more small groups around the sectors, and they could send a squad or two to help imperial guard Forces take the hardest key Objectives.

Like the Marines Drop pot into the Bunker on top of the hill clear it out and then leave to help elsewhere, it would make everyone's life easier. Help turn that battle from a month long Campaign to a Few hour long Skirmish.

The Space marines are not being used to their full extent.

CaragaraPDF wrote:The Imperial guard is: [...] hard to supply

Quite the opposite actually. THe Imperial Guard is easy to supply, certainly FAR easier than Astartes.

CaragaraPDF wrote:The Space marines are not being used to their full extent.

You should write a letter to the emperor.

Cantus wrote:

CaragaraPDF wrote:The Space marines are not being used to their full extent.

You should write a letter to the emperor.

I did... He sent it back unopened.

Like Oprah!


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Melissia wrote:

CaragaraPDF wrote:The Imperial guard is: [...] hard to supply

Quite the opposite actually. THe Imperial Guard is easy to supply, certainly FAR easier than Astartes.

Well hard in the sense of food and such on the battlefield.

CaragaraPDF wrote:Well hard in the sense of food and such on the battlefield.

Not really. Guard rations are plentiful, cheap, and last for a long time. Yes, it takes more to feed that many guardsmen than Marines, but it costs FAR more to supply equipment and ammunition to Marines-- and furthermore, you have to supply new ammunition after each mission, whereas Guardsmen have rechargable packs. Each single clip from an Astartes boltgun costs more than it would take to equip a squad or more of Guardsman for a long campaign. A campaign, not just a single clip for a single mission.

Actually, Guard rations are notoriously cheap... it's said that the extra rations Cain left behind in the desert were still there where he left them a century later and as edible as they ever were.

Meh no sense arguing over how long ration packs last.

We all know i'm right. Jk i'm not that self centered.

You are probably right.

Astartes don't need food...their armour has the recycling thingy mabobber. They don't even need a weopon. A metal cestus (AKA their fist) can do the job just fine. But, with so short numbers, I wouldn't reccomend sending a chapter alone somewhere. Rather, they make good support units. Keep em in reserve till a specialist is needed, then send the miniature tanks on a suicide run. Like a conversation I had one night, Imperial Guard are a big-ass hamer, where as Space Marines are more like a needle.

brandon noble wrote:send the miniature tanks on a suicide run. Like a conversation I had one night, Imperial Guard are a big-ass hamer, where as Space Marines are more like a needle.

hence my Sig.


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No what... Lets let the Inquisition show us more.

brandon noble wrote:They don't even need a weopon.

Yes, but they DO need a weapon.

Melissia wrote:

brandon noble wrote:They don't even need a weopon.

Yes, but they DO need a weapon.

Well, to be fair, while Space Marines still need weapons, that doesn't change the fact that the Guard don't have any weopons at all! Now whether or not the Guard need weopons is another matter, which we have yet to address.

Right from the opening post, this thread never had a chance, did it?

Clearly the Imperium needs both, and clearly they are designed for different roles.

Both need to coexist, and so do we.