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In all honesty just choose the army you think looks cooler. I chose space marines because their fluff and the way they look.

SmackCakes wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Hm, let's see.

Nine foot tall, power armored, genetically and cybernetically enhanced killing machine whose basic infantry weapon is a fully automatic armor piercing rocket propelled grenade launcher versus a cowardly little cardboard-armored flashlight-wielding pants-wetting Guardsman?

You tell me.

Actually sigged.

On topic, I think space marines are clearly better one on one (and SM scouts can fit through holes).

Army versus Army... is a tough one. IG certainly have the advantage of numbers. But I don't know how many they could realistically field at one time in one place.

In any case I don't think SM force would willingly meet an IG army head on, if they were so heavily outnumbered. They would choose their battles carefully, launching surgical strikes at supply lines, and fuel dumps, ambushing convoys, and decapitating the enemies HQ.

This is what the fluff suggests Marines are trained to do. And IG usually fair poorly against rogue SM chapters in the fluff... in typical GW plotting, they hold out bravely until marines or the imperial fleet arrives.

I'm honored.

Ah, the Imperial Guard. Armed with the most potent weapon of them all - plot.

All this is assuming the IG are facing just tac marines anyway. Let's not forget they also have vegetables piloting mobile weapons platforms, veterans wearing armor that protects better than a modern tank, assault troops that strap rockets to their back, and often the marines' preferred method of entering battle is to strap themselves into metal cans and basically shoot themselves at a planet's surface. I wouldn't want to be a guardsman facing down a marine just because they seem to be freaking nuts.

Imperial Guard are cool if you like building lots of vehicle kits like chimeras, valkyries, tanks and artillery. While our infantry is no slouch, they can be somewhat plain in a modeling sense, so our real power (both hobby- and game- related) rests in the tanks. There aren't too many special characters that are worth taking,and there aren't too many options to change your list in radical ways, so for the most part expansion involves getting more of the same: more platoons, more veterans, more chimerae, more valkyries, more hydras, more artillery.

Space Marines are a good option if you want to focus on the individual soldiers, as the range of power armored models has grown immensely and there is some really fantastic stuff in there. Space Marines also offer the advantage of having multiple books dedicated to them, so you have a lot of variety in rules to try before you settle down to painting. There are also many special characters, some of which can radically alter your list. Between the multiple books and various special characters, you have a lot of room for expansion in unexpected directions. You could easily do a Space Wolf calvary list, then switch it up and make a BA army of dreadnoughts.

Now, as with everything else, this is of course not 100%. The Death Korps of Krieg models from ForgeWorld in my subjective opinion are the nicest-looking 40K-related models of all time (although again you can't pay the same amount of attention to one Kriegsman as you can one Tactical Marine). Space Marines can also get their hands on some interesting kits (especially Blood Angels with their hordes of preds/dreads, and the still-to-come Stormravens).


TL;DR version

IG - tons of cool vehicle models, very good at long range shooting and pack tons of special weapons up close, very adept at manipulating reserves (lots of things can outflank very reliably, and can screw with your rolls), tend to be a less common army at the local level (although apparently tend make a big showing at convention tournaments). Essentially look and play as a "conventional" military force.

SM - tons of epic characters and infantry models, some cool vehicle models, have a lot of variety in playstyle but tend to excel in close combat, have tons of build options (all-terminator, all-bike, all-jumppack/drop pod, heavy armor, rhino rush etc. etc. and any mixture in between). Look and play personify the over-the-top craziness of 40K.


It's a real tough call, as they are both cool and eventually both are worth owning. When I got back into 40K with the release of 5th, I went with IG because I fell in love with the Valkyrie and DKoK models. I'm going to get back into power armor, but I'm waiting on the GK codex before making my decision.

Undeniably the Imperial Guard.

Humans fighting desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them is far more epic than superhumans fighting stoically against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them.

Before anyone inevitably whines about this post and cries of "marine-hate", yes, this is an opinion, duh. No, saying Marines aren't my favorite is not equal to Marine hate. Obnoxious posters....

I have trouble seeing how humans fighting desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them and losing is more epic than superhumans fighting stoically against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them and winning.

Also, you're a dirty Marine hater!!!

Melissia wrote:Undeniably the Space Marines

Humans dying desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them is far less epic than superhumans fighting stoically against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them.

I Love all Dakka members and anyone that wants to debate with my opinion

There you go, improved and edited it for you!

SaintHazard wrote:I have trouble seeing how humans fighting desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them and losing

If the Imperial Guard lost more than it won, then Imperium would cease to exist.

No matter their prowess, Space Marines simply do not have the numbers to effectively defend the Imperium. They can barely manage to defend a few key worlds, and even then only with the support of the Guard. The Guard, however, is omnipresent, the true defenders of humanity-- humanity itself.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:I have trouble seeing how humans fighting desperately against the worst the 40k galaxy has to throw at them and losing

If the Imperial Guard lost more than it won, then Imperium would cease to exist.

No, just if they lost all the time. They can afford to lose more than they win - if they lose, keep throwing cannon fodder at it until it becomes a win!

So you're saying they don't really lose, because they have enough resources that a minor setback can be turned into a win through attrition?

That's not defeat. To an Astartes that might be defeat, but that's because the Astartes are limited in number and therefor cannot handle the sort of attrition the Guard can.

A large portion of Space Marine successes rely on the blood of the Emperor's Hammer.

Melissia wrote:So you're saying they don't really lose, because they have enough resources that a minor setback can be turned into a win through attrition?

That's not defeat. To an Astartes that might be defeat, but that's because the Astartes are limited in number and therefor cannot handle the sort of attrition the Guard can.

No, that's what I'm saying.

They never lose, and yet they lose constantly.

You just need to define lose.

I think you're the one that needs to define lose, then, and stick with a single definition so that you don't end up with confusing statements like that.

Terminus wrote:A large portion of Space Marine successes relies on the blood of the Emperor's Hammer.

Indeed. Let's give examples even:


Macragge? Guard (in the form of PDF and navy which while technically aren't Guard fulfill the same purpose and frequently work closely together, and so I often combine the three) did a great deal of fighting, allowing papa smurf's little smurflings to focus on striking at the hive fleet itself.

Cadia? Home of one of the toughest Guard forces, defended primarily by them with assistance from Marines and Sisters.

Armageddon? Ditto.

Subsector Aurelia? Reliant on the Guard to hold the line and obtain regular victories, so the Blood Ravens can strike valuable targets.

Macharian Crusade? Most successful offensive since the Great Crusade, done by Guardsmen and led by a Guard officer.

Sabbat Worlds Crusade? Primarily fought by Guard, small contingent of Astartes (two companies) and Sisters assisting it.

Angevin Crusade? Almost entirely done by Guard forces, with minor Astartes and Sororitas presence.



In fact, I can't think of any major wars that didn't primarily involve Guard forces save for Ork invasion of Rynn's World. Which IIRC was largely a ignominious defeat and required Guard to assist in taking it back because the Crimson Fists were nearly wiped out. I'm not saying Marines can't fight. They hit hard and fast, but they can't take casualties very well. The Guard can, and does.

So what you're saying is that the Guard provide warm bodies for the enemies to hack away at while the Space Marines strike decisively and solve the problem.

And you are correct.

No, that only happens sometimes. These are just lists of major battles, and even then only a few of them (Macragge and Aurelia) are what you describe. The others ? The Marines pitched in a few times, but it is the Guard that did the primary and most important fighting. Similarly, the vast majority of battles have no Marines in them in the first place.

Guardsmen are the primary defensive and offensive force of the Imperium. Marines, except in a few major battles, do not have that big of an impact on the 41st millennium in comparison to the Guard-- the continued existence of the Imperium is ensured not by the Adeptus Astartes, but the Departmento Munitorum.

I still think Marines are better because "Marine" has fewer letters than "Guardsman."

And they have prettier colors.

Oh please, you can paint Guard armor whatever colors you want. I know someone who had a "Macragge PDF" force counts as Guard, painted up in Ultramarines colors. It actually looked pretty cool alongside the Ultramarines models (mostly because he used gold instead of that ugly friggin' yellow).

HERESY!

The marines have a little more respect for themselves than the Guardsmen and dont just toss their bodies at the enemy. Plus they don't attack the enemy head on, they attack things that will weaken the enemy to where the Marines can actually attack the main force of the enemy.

ironhand45 wrote:The marines have a little more respect for themselves than the Guardsmen and dont just toss their bodies at the enemy. Plus they don't attack the enemy head on, they attack things that will weaken the enemy to where the Marines can actually attack the main force of the enemy.

Eh, not really. Nine times out of ten, Marines in fluff are 1) making an idiotic last stand or 2) attacking the enemy head on.

Most of the time it's Pedro Kantor or Cato Sicarius doing the former, and the Space Wolves, Black Templars, and Blood Angels doing the latter.

There must be a clause in the Codex Astartes that says you have to abandon all semblance of tactical acumen and throw yourself at the enemy.

The reason it works for Marines rather than Guardsmen is the fact that Marines basic infantry wear the equivalent of tank armor. So, y'know. There's that.

SaintHazard wrote:The reason it works for Marines rather than Guardsmen is the fact that Marines basic infantry wear the equivalent of plot armor. So, y'know. There's that.

Fixed that for ya

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:The reason it works for Marines rather than Guardsmen is the fact that Marines basic infantry wear the equivalent of plot armor. So, y'know. There's that.

Fixed that for ya

Well yes, there's that too! It's basically a layer of plot armor over the tank armor.

But the Guard have a similar advantage - the entire number of Guardsman available in any given tactical situation can always be described as "plot."

"We're losing Guardsmen left and right out there!"

"Don't worry, Colonel. We have plot more. Send in the reserves!"

Technically speaking, There shouldn't even be enough marines to attack in large numbers.
In the fluff they are referred to, don't quote me on this, as elite storm troopers meaning that the IG first engage the enemy then the space marines pummel the enemy down from the flanks. One on one SM win, however if it was entire army vs entire army the ratio of IG to SM is roughly 1000:1. Plus the tanks ratio is 250:1 at least and the IG have superior tanks anyway.
All in all, the SM would get smashed by the IG in full force deployment.

To get it through your thick space marine skulls i'll put it this way:
1=1
1<1000.
1000>1.

For the Emperor!!!

---------------------------------------
Nerd rage terminated.

Cadichan Support wrote:Technically speaking, There shouldn't even be enough marines to attack in large numbers.
In the fluff they are referred to, don't quote me on this, as elite storm troopers meaning that the IG first engage the enemy then the space marines pummel the enemy down from the flanks. One on one SM win, however if it was entire army vs entire army the ratio of IG to SM is roughly 1000:1.

Oh pfeh, that's not even close. The uncounted billions of the Guard are far more numerous than that. Millions are recruited from hive worlds every year just to pay taxes.

Melissia wrote:

Cadichan Support wrote:Technically speaking, There shouldn't even be enough marines to attack in large numbers.
In the fluff they are referred to, don't quote me on this, as elite storm troopers meaning that the IG first engage the enemy then the space marines pummel the enemy down from the flanks. One on one SM win, however if it was entire army vs entire army the ratio of IG to SM is roughly 1000:1.

Oh pfeh, that's not even close. The uncounted billions of the Guard are far more numerous than that. Millions are recruited from hive worlds every year just to pay taxes.

My point exactly.

I like guard much better than most marine chapters. They just don't have the "derp derp we are the bestest with awesome armours and never die and doesn't afraid of anything!" theme that the SM's seem to have. They are just the unwilling but comitted massess of faceless troops, dieing every day in the name of the Emperor but still finding room in all the slaughter for victory.

I still can't believe people are even arguing over whether a Space Marine is better than a guardsman. A Super Human, or a non-super human.

I think the argument that Imperial Guard are better because they spend half their time dying for the emperor is moot IMHO.

I think you only need to look to the Great Crusade to see the comparison betweens Marine and Guard on a large-scale.

I admit to being a Space Marine fan and hence having some bias, but to compare a Space Marine to a Guardsman?!

Just Dave wrote:I think you only need to look to the Great Crusade to see the comparison betweens Marine and Guard on a large-scale.

The Great Crusade. Oh yeah, that ended well, what with fully half of all Marines turning traitor and all. Yeah, good job proving your point there.

Melissia wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I think you only need to look to the Great Crusade to see the comparison betweens Marine and Guard on a large-scale.

The Great Crusade. Oh yeah, that ended well, what with fully half of all Marines turning traitor and all. Yeah, good job proving your point there.

another thing the SM couldnt do the great crusade alone thus the Imperial army was created

Oh yeah, genius Melissia, because none of the Imperial Guard turned traitor? Forgot that.

I actually meant it as the Space Marines were at the forefront of one of the greatest galactic expansions and that they were created as the Imperial Guard couldn't manage it alone.

What's too tough for the Guard they send the Marines to deal with. I imagine they're referred to as the greatest warriors in the galaxy for a reason...