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Kanluwen wrote:You're forgetting the fact that when Astartes take massive damage to the point of going into shock, their bodies start glanding massive amounts of adrenaline to counteract it for 5-6 minutes.

That's true, but Marines who get shot through the heart don't just go for 5-6 minutes.

I wish I could remember where that happened, I want to say Nightbringer but I'm not sure that's right. The Marine who got shot kept on going until he got killed proper like. More than just a few minutes.

I'm sure the second heart is quite helpful for staying up after the first one gets shot.

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Not really. I challenge you to find a piece of fluff where a half-sized platoon routinely owns terminator squads.

Terminus wrote:I'm sure the second heart is quite helpful for staying up after the first one gets shot.

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Not really. I challenge you to find a piece of fluff where a half-sized platoon routinely owns terminator squads.

I could point you to about a dozen pieces of fluff where Guardsmen don't crap their pants and run when you so much as spit at them.

Well marines. if you got to warhammer 40k WIKI you can see why. It has all the things the marines have. Like 3 lungs, a gland that makes them spit acid if they are trapped. jsut go.

SaintHazard wrote:

Terminus wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Not really. I challenge you to find a piece of fluff where a half-sized platoon routinely owns terminator squads.

I could point you to about a dozen pieces of fluff where Guardsmen don't crap their pants and run when you so much as spit at them.

I meant that Guard actually tend to be tougher on the table than in the fluff (except characters, although honestly my Straken comes close sometimes). Half-sized platoons CAN routinely own terminator squads.

The way i think about guard is, when I am rolling to hit with my BS 3 guardsmen, I think about how They are Fighting Things that are so much more powerful then them.

For example, a guard squad rolls to hit shooting las weapons in Rapid fire range. a lucky roll of 11 hit. The shots that "Missed" Could have gone little wide, Or (main Idea) Glassed off the targets Thick armor.
The "Hits" Hit in a week spot, Say it was shot before, or is some form of joint.
The Rolling to wound is seeing if that lucky/skilled shot went in or just Was spread out.
The Target's Armor save is "Resisting" the roll to wound part. If they pass it fazed/wasn't felt. If they fail their armor save the shot entered into the flesh.

At the end of battle a guard army could have "Missed" half of its shots on the roll, but the shots didn't fly over the ork mobs heads it just smacked into tough ork hides.

The Moral of the Story is, Guard have low stats because the "Standard" or "Normal" guy is so much stronger.

Its this Difference that makes me love the little guys so much more.

Imperial Guard REP.

Terminus wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Terminus wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:The point is, while SOME of these things can be done on the tabletop, not ALL of them feasibly can. Space Marines are tougher in fluff than on the tabletop.

However, to be fair, so are Guardsmen.

Not really. I challenge you to find a piece of fluff where a half-sized platoon routinely owns terminator squads.

I could point you to about a dozen pieces of fluff where Guardsmen don't crap their pants and run when you so much as spit at them.

I meant that Guard actually tend to be tougher on the table than in the fluff (except characters, although honestly my Straken comes close sometimes). Half-sized platoons CAN routinely own terminator squads.

I know what you're saying. I'm disagreeing.

By saying that in fluff, the Guard don't crap their pants and run when they see my Terminators cresting yonder hill.

On the tabletop, they most certainly do. Unless they have a Commissar, in which case they try to run, their Sergeant gets executed, and then they run away.

CaragaraPDF wrote:The way i think about guard is, when I am rolling to hit with my BS 3 guardsmen, I think about how They are Fighting Things that are so much more powerful then them.

For example, a guard squad rolls to hit shooting las weapons in Rapid fire range. a lucky roll of 11 hit. The shots that "Missed" Could have gone little wide, Or (main Idea) Glassed off the targets Thick armor.
The "Hits" Hit in a week spot, Say it was shot before, or is some form of joint.
The Rolling to wound is seeing if that lucky/skilled shot went in or just Was spread out.
The Target's Armor save is "Resisting" the roll to wound part. If they pass it fazed/wasn't felt. If they fail their armor save the shot entered into the flesh.

At the end of battle a guard army could have "Missed" half of its shots on the roll, but the shots didn't fly over the ork mobs heads it just smacked into tough ork hides.

The Moral of the Story is, Guard have low stats because the "Standard" or "Normal" guy is so much stronger.

Its this Difference that makes me love the little guys so much more.

Imperial Guard REP.

Except that the Guard are generally crap shots, so "missing" is not "hitting and not penetrating."

Logically, here's how it breaks down:

Hitting is whether or not your shot hit the target or went wide.

Wounding is whether that was a shot the target can just shrug off, or if it actually did some damage.

Armor is whether the armor stopped it from doing the damage it would have done.

So, basically, if Guardsmen with BS (which stands for Ballistic Skill, not Ballistic Luck) 3 fire 50 shots and hit 25, it's because they suck at shooting. Better than modern militaries, even so! 50% accuracy is outstanding! But crap compared to the rest of the 40k universe? Yes.

Game wise and strangely enough the IG are better and IMHO severely OP but hey what do you do? In one hand I understand they are so strong because they are the main bulk of the Imperiums troops but on the other hand there is just so much they should be able to hold up against.

SaintHazard wrote:

CaragaraPDF wrote:The way i think about guard is, when I am rolling to hit with my BS 3 guardsmen, I think about how They are Fighting Things that are so much more powerful then them.

For example, a guard squad rolls to hit shooting las weapons in Rapid fire range. a lucky roll of 11 hit. The shots that "Missed" Could have gone little wide, Or (main Idea) Glassed off the targets Thick armor.
The "Hits" Hit in a week spot, Say it was shot before, or is some form of joint.
The Rolling to wound is seeing if that lucky/skilled shot went in or just Was spread out.
The Target's Armor save is "Resisting" the roll to wound part. If they pass it fazed/wasn't felt. If they fail their armor save the shot entered into the flesh.

At the end of battle a guard army could have "Missed" half of its shots on the roll, but the shots didn't fly over the ork mobs heads it just smacked into tough ork hides.

The Moral of the Story is, Guard have low stats because the "Standard" or "Normal" guy is so much stronger.

Its this Difference that makes me love the little guys so much more.

Imperial Guard REP.

Except that the Guard are generally crap shots, so "missing" is not "hitting and not penetrating."

Logically, here's how it breaks down:

Hitting is whether or not your shot hit the target or went wide.

Wounding is whether that was a shot the target can just shrug off, or if it actually did some damage.

Armor is whether the armor stopped it from doing the damage it would have done.

So, basically, if Guardsmen with BS (which stands for Ballistic Skill, not Ballistic Luck) 3 fire 50 shots and hit 25, it's because they suck at shooting. Better than modern militaries, even so! 50% accuracy is outstanding! But crap compared to the rest of the 40k universe? Yes.

They who do Guardsmen Like the Mordians have the same BS as Guardsmen that are more like the Catachans? Or the Dieprian Mountain Men? Also take into account they are shooting lasers. They will go straight, but you would have to be trained to know how to shoot (Witch is Basic training) and Where to shoot (Advanced training). I say where to shoot is more advanced training (higher BS) Not as a Mordian Guardsman would know this. This is Part of the reason Vets hit better.
Example:
A Normal Guardsman Shoots a CSM in the chest. He hit. The CSM docent even not a hit. The guardsman's shot missed.
A veteran Guardsman Shoots a CSH. He aims for the neck joint. He Hits it. The shot was On target and hits.

In Both Cases the shots hit. But the Standard Guardsman did not know where the weak spots were.

CaragaraPDF wrote:They who do Guardsmen Like the Mordians have the same BS as Guardsmen that are more like the Catachans? Or the Dieprian Mountain Men? Also take into account they are shooting lasers. They will go straight, but you would have to be trained to know how to shoot (Witch is Basic training) and Where to shoot (Advanced training). I say where to shoot is more advanced training (higher BS) Not as a Mordian Guardsman would know this. This is Part of the reason Vets hit better.
Example:
A Normal Guardsman Shoots a CSM in the chest. He hit. The CSM docent even not a hit. The guardsman's shot missed.
A veteran Guardsman Shoots a CSH. He aims for the neck joint. He Hits it. The shot was On target and hits.

In Both Cases the shots hit. But the Standard Guardsman did not know where the weak spots were.

It doesn't matter where the Guardsman is from. Guardsman are, generally speaking, crap shooters. This is because they are simply normal humans. Warlike humans, raised in a culture that idolizes warmakers, yes, but humans nonetheless.

Now because we're not working with a 100-point scale here, we're working with a 6-point scale, this is represented as a 50% chance to hit. They're not as good as Space Marines, who have a 66% chance to hit, but they're not as bad as Orks, who only have a 33% chance to hit.

Fluff: Space Marines dominate the puny Guardsmen. No questions asked.

Game: Guardsmen codex allows twenty Guardsmen and probably a few heavy weapons (i.e. Lascannons, Autocannons, and Heavy Bolters) for the same cost as a single squad of space marines.

I still stand by my statement that the Imperial Guard codex is ridiculously overpowered and that Space Marines are not adequetly represented in-game.

1337m45747r0y wrote:Game: Guardsmen codex allows twenty Guardsmen and probably a few heavy weapons (i.e. Lascannons, Autocannons, and Heavy Bolters) for the same cost as a single squad of space marines.

30, actually.

I still stand by my statement that the Imperial Guard codex is ridiculously overpowered and that Space Marines are not adequetly represented in-game.

No, you just don't want to take responsibility for your own shortcomings.

As a Marine player, I disagree. Marines are very well represented in-game. They can carry heavy weapons on their shoulders and their armor protects them 66% of the time.

The IG codex isn't overpowered, you may not have a solid grasp on how to play Marines to win. Which may actually be a good thing, because playing Marines to win can be annoying (I'm looking at you, BA bandwagon jumpers).

The only thing that people on this thread keep repeating is ''There are 1000000 guard for every Marine and because of that Marines don't have a chance.''

Do you really think the Marines would drive up in front of the Guardsmen and start having a shooting contest?

Ediin wrote:The only thing that people on this thread keep repeating is ''There are 1000000 guard for every Marine and because of that Marines don't have a chance.''

Do you really think the Marines would drive up in front of the Guardsmen and start having a shooting contest?

I don't know about your Marines, but my Marines have balls of steel. They'd absolutely do exactly that. And probably survive. And if they didn't then at least they died looking unbelievably manly and awesome.

Also, yes, that is exactly the kind of tactics GW would have Space Marines use.


See, GW thinks Marines are tactical retards.

Melissia wrote:Also, yes, that is exactly the kind of tactics GW would have Space Marines use.


See, GW thinks Marines are tactical retards.

Except that the Codex Astartes lays out a detailed combined arms strategy to be used by a Space Marine battle company... however, nine times out of ten, you are correct, in that the fluff (even among Codex Marine chapters) has them blatantly disregarding the instructions of the Codex and making dumbass heroic last stands, and things of the sort.

Then again, how often do we see actual combined arms tactics used in war movies? The truth is that combined arms tactics work, and any tactic that works makes for a boring action movie/game/novel/etc.

Nobody wants to see those Deltas beautifully execute a textbook sweep and clear and emerge without so much as a bloody nose among them, but that's more often than not how it happens in real life.

The same applies to 40k. If we saw the Codex being adhered to, it'd make for some pretty boring one-sided battles.

Heh, do you honestly think the writers of Black Library have a copy of Codex Astartes before them whenever they write? They just write what they think makes a good story (often failing). That's why I don't usually consider Black Library to be purely canon. Even I think Marines are smarter than Black Library does.

OT The Guard, for we are the first and last line of defence of mankind.

Game wise IMHO....

From my experience, a 500 point IG army will almost always lose to a 500 point SM army.

Now, I can do work on my brothers 1,000 point Blood Angels, with my Steel Legion, and once you get into bigger games the IG almost always have the advantage in manpower.

The Space Marines are a much more "Beginner" friendly army, but once you know how to use them they own.

IG are a little bit tougher but, again once you learn how to play them, they can do work.


But I think I'll stick to Chaos ^^

IG ALL THE WAY!! Any shumck can fight when he's an eight foot tall walking tank, but a real man goes to war with three things: his lasgun in his hands, his comrades at his sides, and his faith in the Emperor in his heart!!

revackey: By that reasoning, IG are better because anything over 1750 points IG is probably gonna win.

Melissia wrote:revackey: By that reasoning, IG are better because anything over 1750 points IG is probably gonna win.

I'm not convinced of that.

A good player with an 1850 point tournament IG list and a good player with an 1850 point tournament Marines list are, in my opinion, pretty well matched.

Anyone who loses to Guard just doesn't know how to counter Guard.

I don't buy that "X codex is stronger than Y codex" when these assertions are being made by players who may not be playing their codex to its fullest. Math is math and statistics are statistics. Most 5th edition codices are more or less balanced against one another. It all comes down to the player.

I like parts , and dislike parts from each army. I have to agree IG might be better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:

Melissia wrote:revackey: By that reasoning, IG are better because anything over 1750 points IG is probably gonna win.

I'm not convinced of that.

A good player with an 1850 point tournament IG list and a good player with an 1850 point tournament Marines list are, in my opinion, pretty well matched.

Anyone who loses to Guard just doesn't know how to counter Guard.

I don't buy that "X codex is stronger than Y codex" when these assertions are being made by players who may not be playing their codex to its fullest. Math is math and statistics are statistics. Most 5th edition codices are more or less balanced against one another. It all comes down to the player.

He has a very good point.

SaintHazard wrote:[snip]

Then take it up with revackey As I said, I was using his reasoning.

I like Guard because they're human, none of this superhuman nonsense. You should know by now that I judge things based off of the fluff, not the game.

Melissia wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:[snip]

Then take it up with revackey As I said, I was using his reasoning.

I like Guard because they're human, none of this superhuman nonsense. You should know by now that I judge things based off of the fluff, not the game.

I kind of indirectly did, I guess, as he agreed that my point is solid.

But anyway.

I need to change my final answer.

Tabletop? Marines.
One-on-one fight? Obviously Marines, see my first post in this thread.
Fluff? IG.

Marines got some excellent fluff, but aren't nearly as grimdark as masses of humans, torn from their homes, given a suit of cardboard and a laser pointer, and told to go kill some ravenous space-bugs that happen to come in endless swarms and eat their own dead to make more of them. That's pretty awesome.

It doesn't help that I watched Starship Troopers again the other day. God I love that movie.

SaintHazard wrote:Nobody wants to see those Deltas beautifully execute a textbook sweep and clear and emerge without so much as a bloody nose among them, but that's more often than not how it happens in real life.

I, for one, would fething LOVE to see that. And then after the sweep, the screen can explode Michael Bay style and ninjas start tossing kamehamehas all over the place. It's like having your combined arms tactical cake, and eating it too!

If any of you has read Fifteen Hours then you'll see the courage some guardsmen have.

You play Vampire Counts, right?

Please let dead threads RIP. Thanks!