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Well, I generally stay away from the blastmaster as its severely overpriced.

Sigh....
Yeah. I'd like to offer a counterargument, but yeah. It is.

Which is a same.
Doom Siren is great though, and I always give them Sonic Blasters for fluffy reasons. Noise Marines should be able to do some noise.

Still, +5 pts per model is too much.
The ideal situation in my EC army is this.
NM Rhinos move forward, squads eventually disembark,
lash Princes mislead enemy units so that they get into flamer range,
doom sirens and rapidly firing bolters do their job.
There is simply no need for sonic blasters here.

k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.

zhangbob wrote:k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.

Because you can't lash them AWAY from you, right? Oh wait...

i've finally gotten to play 2 games, and both were vs DE in a 1500 point game and 750 point game. I run khorne zerkers with typically 2 DPs slaanesh and a Nurgle or Tzeench depending on the army (so far only used Tzeentch. My army won both times mostly because of the DPs. My zerkers were doing suprisingly bad agianst my opponents HQs and Eiltes....no its not that its the power weapons. If my opponent goes before i do all wielding PWs they cleave through my zerkers like butter and yes zerkers still take out about half the elites with the 4 that typically remain but then next turn they are wiped out before the get to strike back unless i have a 2nd squad there or A DP backing them up.

First game was annilation i won by 1 point XD its cause his HQ and wytches were tied up with my zerkers for most of the game while my DPs literly hoped over the wytches and killed the rest of his army.
Defiler was able to take out his skimmer after a Turbo boost which helped a lot. We played on a skinny table and my 2 infiltrating chosen squads end up being useless jsut giving his wytches free blood tokens off the bat.

I need to play with the chosen a bit more to see if they are jsut going to be worthless points, cause now that i think about it they can start CLOSEST 12" from the opponent, and with meltas that dont get their melta effects unless they are within 6" they might be a bad unit to run. If im going to repalce the 2 untis of chosen (tiny bit short of 300 pts) I'm thinking of replacing them with melta and or plasma bikers with marks of nurgle (T6) to turbo boost in turn one and go after their Heavy support (hopefully drawing fire fro my impending Rhinos and DPs)


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AlmightyWalrus wrote:

zhangbob wrote:k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.

Because you can't lash them AWAY from you, right? Oh wait...

Yes cause lashing things away from you helps so much vs a hording army

I really do find that although blastmasters are expenisve they always make up their points cost.
For me, they're usually my first choice for troops in 1500pts. I usually run 3-4 squads of 7, 6 with sonic blasters and one with a blastmaster.
Couple them with two lash sorcerers and maybe a vidi and my pie plates shall rain from the sky.

zhangbob wrote:i've finally gotten to play 2 games, and both were vs DE in a 1500 point game and 750 point game. I run khorne zerkers with typically 2 DPs slaanesh and a Nurgle or Tzeench depending on the army (so far only used Tzeentch. My army won both times mostly because of the DPs. My zerkers were doing suprisingly bad agianst my opponents HQs and Eiltes....no its not that its the power weapons. If my opponent goes before i do all wielding PWs they cleave through my zerkers like butter and yes zerkers still take out about half the elites with the 4 that typically remain but then next turn they are wiped out before the get to strike back unless i have a 2nd squad there or A DP backing them up.

Good to hear you're getting som games! Actual play is essential; theory only gets you so far. Your observations about the Zerks are accurate; this underscores the importance of popping enemy transports to help you get the assault matchups you want.

zhangbob wrote:I need to play with the chosen a bit more to see if they are jsut going to be worthless points, cause now that i think about it they can start CLOSEST 12" from the opponent, and with meltas that dont get their melta effects unless they are within 6" they might be a bad unit to run. If im going to repalce the 2 untis of chosen (tiny bit short of 300 pts) I'm thinking of replacing them with melta and or plasma bikers with marks of nurgle (T6) to turbo boost in turn one and go after their Heavy support (hopefully drawing fire fro my impending Rhinos and DPs)

If you want to take out HS hiding in the back, Outflanking Chosen in a Rhino are much more cost effective than Bikers. If you want to draw fire off your assault Rhinos and DPs, you can also just deploy the Chosen in Rhinos and have them joing the rush forward. Quick note- I think you're misreading (or just miswriting) the infiltrate rules- you cannot be WITHIN 12", which means exactly 12" is illegal. It's basically 12.000001 min distance. I never Infiltrate my Chosen when I use them. I almost exclusively Outflank them.

zhangbob wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

zhangbob wrote:k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.

Because you can't lash them AWAY from you, right? Oh wait...

Yes cause lashing things away from you helps so much vs a hording army

Lashing units away can work quite well, depending on the distances and the situation. Lash makes handling hordes in general a lot easier. Bunching them up for your flamer and blast templates, spreading them out and moving them back before you assault them, to minimize the number of their models which can fight (against Orks I always like moving the Klaw Nob far enough back that he doesn't get to swing). Many, many possibilities. Often you don't even want to bother getting a Lash prince into assault vs a horde, because he's just too valuable Lashing every turn.

zhangbob wrote:k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.

A DP shouldn't be charged by a horde unit.
What I'm running are Obliterators and at larger pt levels also Termies.

As Manna says - lash them away, bunch them up. Lash is one of THE most useful weapons against Horde, just for the ability to change their plans - instead of two units multicharging they find they get charged by you with power weapons / fists moved to the back.

Shaman wrote:Chaos has sucked for so long I can barely remember them being good.

Steal the space wolf codex and proxy.. They essentially have a Khorne codex. Just replace the word Wolf with Khorne and the word Imperial with Chaos you can't go wrong. Anyone complains.. Blood for the Blood God.

I have a friend that is thinking of doing this very thing (even painting up some SW models red, and have thundercav mounted on juggernauts). The CSM codex can be used to good effect but it is generally not as easily done if you want to use a single god. This is the reason I abandoned the army when that abomination of a codex was released. I'm all Nurgle all the time. I don't want to build a force with the others mixed in to fill the gaps and I want my damn daemons back! To the older players like myself (who have been with Warhammer in one form or another for the last 20 plus years) who remember how chaos used to be their newest incarnation is utter crap no matter how it plays, the force lost its feel. However, it still can be played and when it comes down to it if that's what interests you then that's what you should do. Good luck and Blood for the Blood God!

Upon reading the entire codex last night...I'm utterly convinced that every list should include a greater daemon. For a hundred points, you get a WS8, S6,T6, W4 model. Yeah, it can't fly, and only has a 4++ save, but who cares? Greater Daemons are just amazing. A couple other things I like about my own codex

-Almost every unit you want to take has the option for tank busting. CSM, plague marines, terminators, raptors, havocs...Even your rhinos can take combi-meltas. It gets a bit excessive, to be honest, but it's always nice. Yeah, berserkers and sons and noise marines can't take them, but that's not the goal of those units.

- Havoc Launchers. S5 AP5 heavy1 Blast T-L. Lemme emphasize Twin-linked. These things are extremely upgraded frag missiles, that have the possibility of cracking a transport, or wrecking havoc on infantry. They're incredibly versatile, and offer much more than a frag launcher. Who needs whirlwinds when you have these? For 15 points, it's a bargain. Might as well take them on everything in the army.

- Doom Siren. 'nuff said. I only wish lords with a MOS could take them. That alone would make me want to build a Slaanesh list

- Reaper Autocannons. It's a real shame that the option to take them is so limited. We have like three units that can take these monsters. For some reason, a PREDATOR has a regular autocannon, not a reaper. Isn't this chaos?

-Possessed vehicles. Other armies would kill for them. I can't tell you how many times I've been stunned and couldn't fire a battlecannon, or something. 20 points is kind of steep, but not when you really need it.

- Large selection of named HQs. Huron and Bile aren't that bad, despite not being used very often. Kharne is probably one of the best HQs in the entire game right now. With a maximum of 19 attacks that hit on a 2+....He's pretty amazing

-Icons. Quite simply. Being able to gear up certain units for certain roles is great. If I want some terminators to hit faster against other marines, I can spend a couple points and it's done. If I want to give that unit of raptors a little help against instadeath, I can spend some points, and it's done. Not to mention T6 bikers and terminators with 4 attacks base.

- Dreadnoughts. We should be glad we have them. They can be complete monsters, and unless you've got horrible luck, I don't think their SR will really hurt you. They also provide the only means to get a plasma cannon in the army. Coming from someone who truly loves plasma cannons, dreadnoughts are awesome (I play IG just for the plasma cannons..Seriously)

Okay. There's a list.

Apart from obliterators, of course.

GD suffer from unreliability and hidden costs.

They turn up when the reserve rolls force them to, not when you decide. which is bad.

they kill the aspiring champion / lord to emerge. Which is bad, as it is at least another 33 points -but who takes a naked champ who might need some CC muscle BEFORE the GD turns up? Making that champ 50+ points.

they're hella slow, so often pop and spend the game running to get somewhere.

yeah, this and they're also monstrous creatures, so they don't get cover and are nearly always in LOS, and they can't join squads to hide in them either.

Every time I've faced off against a GD, it dies the turn it arrives. WS8 T6 may be cool, but then I BiD with BS4 plasma and melta and it goes away in a hurry.

Samus_aran115 wrote:- Large selection of named HQs. Huron and Bile aren't that bad, despite not being used very often. Kharne is probably one of the best HQs in the entire game right now. With a maximum of 19 attacks that hit on a 2+....He's pretty amazing
Okay. There's a list.

Please tell me I'm right on this! IIRC, Gorechild isn't a Daemon Weapon, so Khârn doesn't get the 2D6 extra attacks.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:- Large selection of named HQs. Huron and Bile aren't that bad, despite not being used very often. Kharne is probably one of the best HQs in the entire game right now. With a maximum of 19 attacks that hit on a 2+....He's pretty amazing
Okay. There's a list.

Please tell me I'm right on this! IIRC, Gorechild isn't a Daemon Weapon, so Khârn doesn't get the 2D6 extra attacks.

.... I dunno, actually. He has a mark of khorne, which implies that if he has a daemon weapon, it would be a bloodfeeder. I'm not sure. I need to look at the codex.

gorechild is special Pw not DW

Reading books is for losers anyhoo.

No, gorechild is not a daemon weapon. Its a power weapon wioth some extras.

Whew, don't scare me like that!

dont get me wrong kharne is a good hq, but i dont think its worth taking any of the named HQs when you have DPs, DPs, are jsut too good for their points not to take. If I didnt take DPs i would definately take luscius, his armor that whenever he saves vs a wound successfully his opponent imediately takes a Str.4 no armor/cover save hit. Thats insane....and he has Doomsiren! XD


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Samus_aran115 wrote:
- Doom Siren. 'nuff said. I only wish lords with a MOS could take them. That alone would make me want to build a Slaanesh list

Automatically Appended Next Post:
also no none of the named HQs have extra attacks form their weapons ( I dont believe) except Abbadon

Kharn and DPs for me.

@Samus_aran115 / Mannahnin
I just tried termicide yesterday. It works! Against wolves. You two were right.

Well, CSM is still a viable army.
There are a few competitive builds like MC heavy (DPs, GD, Dreads, Defilers) or fully Rhino based (Havocs, Chosen, CSM).

Zhang - except for Typhus, who has a nurgle lord daemon weapon that is ALSO a force weapon. Also Kharne only has a single handed CCW plus pistol, so gets an extra attack that way.

I like some of the themes of the CSM, I think their lack of presence can be attributed in large part to GW neglect for them. They have a ton of room for expansion, the codex alone could/should be divided into at least 3 separate codices. GW should also revive the Daemons potency when coupled with CSM. Sure, they are a nice choice for an Apoc game, but really become diluted in any other scenario. I say the Necrons can wait, the CSM need attention!

da001 wrote:Kharn and DPs for me.

@Samus_aran115 / Mannahnin
I just tried termicide yesterday. It works! Against wolves. You two were right.

Yeah, it can work pretty well when you absolutely need to pop something. I'm thinking that termicide will be one of the only real ways to pop the achilles so far....

Also, I've been looking at 1k sons lately....They're way too expensive =/

Why in the name of gak is the aspiring sorcerer 60 points? He still has to pay for psychic powers, which can throw him into the "Why not just take a DP" category. They're basically trash in this codex. No meltas, s&p, same price as plague marines....Bleh, they just suck.

Also, I don't like that Noise Marines give no bonuses to shooting, despite being more shooting oriented What was GW thinking? You give them a storm bolter and that blastmaster...And +1 Initiative? What for?
I think up to four models in the unit should be able to swap their CCW for a Power Weapon, and every model should get a Noise Blaster standard. They should be like 21 points still. Then let the Champion take a doom siren and a power weapon. That sounds like a really useful unit...Am I right?

Zid wrote:Honestly, Chaos was my first army... and I did very well with them starting in 5th (53 wins, 13 losses). The things to note when playing them:

1) Redundancy. If your going to run a defiler, run 3. If your going to run vindicators, run 2+. If your going to run oblits, run as many as you can fit.
2) For your troops, make them varied. I ran 2-3 squads of Plague marines in rhinos, 1 squad of 10 zerkers, and the rest were basic chaos marines in rhinos. Dual special weapons for everything, zerkers just with a PF.
3) AVOID LAND RAIDERS! Chaos LR's suck, period.
4) For your HQ's, Demon Princes are your best bet. Sorcerers come a strong second, they're cheap lasher's. For special HQ's I cannot recommend Abaddon in a squad of zerkers enough. This is the only time I ever ran a LR.

Quoted for truth. I'd also add in:
5) Do not just throw in PF champs for the fun of it. We overpay through the nose for them compared to everyone else. Keep them in squads that are actually going to assault.
6) Throwing combi-weapons or havocs on your Rhinos can cheaply fill in some holes in your army. Don't overlook them
7) If you insist on using Raptors, bikes, or any of the other "bad" choices, run them in min-sized squads. You can make a vaguely coherent case for them in this configuration.

Chaos is, IMHO, running with a very real disadvantage versus 5E codexes, especially when confronted with power-tuned 5E codex lists. If you're in an area that doesn't feature many of these players, that may explain why you're not seeing the problems yet. Space Wolves, in particular, are a huge problem for me.

"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos.

Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair..."


I think its cool that you stick with your berserkers. I have heard that it has been overshadowed by the new Twilight codex marines too (wolf boy or vamp boy I forget the names) and I have never played a chaos army. I have always wanted to paint some World Eaters and run around a game store like Kharne getting all mad crazy and just having fun with it, but never had the time or budget to just start an army on a whim. So I looked in the codex, and I looked at some of the games I played (not many but a handful) against Chaos guys, and I came up with this: Lash + Obliterators is one of the best no-brainer combos to beat some serious ass with, even if its overused and obvious, the reason for that is because it works. Don't think your army sucks because the newer ones get shiney newer things you don't get (hell I play Eldar, so I know the feeling even more than you) but think about all the happy chaos thoughts of the few awesome things you can do that nobody else can... like running around a store shouting 'BLOOOOD!!! SKULLLSSS! REND!!! MAIM!!!!" and not getting funny looks as much as you would in, say, a bus station

Chaos is, IMHO, running with a very real disadvantage versus 5E codexes, especially when confronted with power-tuned 5E codex lists. If you're in an area that doesn't feature many of these players, that may explain why you're not seeing the problems yet. Space Wolves, in particular, are a huge problem for me.

What SW list?
I played three times with my EC army vs. SW and tabled them twice,
while the last game was a minor win.