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Here's my opinion on the Chaos choices in regards to 5th edition:
- Daemon Prince - Very Good. This really doesn't need explaining.
- Chaos Lord - Average. Over-priced and not too hard hitting, but is still a very capable IC.
- Chaos Sorcerer - Average. As above, but Warptime, Wind of Chaos and Lash of Submission are all good powers.
- Chaos Terminators - Good. Cheaper than normal terminators, access to 5pts combi-weapons and lots of CC goodies. Better than their reputation, but Reaper Auto sucks.
- Possessed - Average. Look past their random factor (which still provides good bonuses) and they are a very deadly unit. Expensive however and, yes, random. But this is Chaos.
- Chosen - Above Average. Ability to wield MANY assault weapons is very effective. Infiltration is neat too. Bit too expensive again however.
- Dreadnought - Poor. Flawed by random/self-harm factor, but with 2x CCW is still a deadly unit. Too few viable options, but Crazed/Frenzy has always been there.
- Chaos Space Marines - Good. Cheaper than their Space Marine counter-parts and have a wide variety of good available to them. Special weapons are (NOW) comparatively over-priced but they make good choices alongside the more expensive cult-troops. Solid back-bone.
- Khorne Bezerkers - Very Good. Expensive but cheap for what they can do. Very deadly in assault and scoring. Only significant problem is getting them to assault.
- Noise Marines - Average. Very expensive and sonic weapon can underwhelm. Do well in small quantities and as auxiliaries rather than back-bone though.
- Plague Marines - Very Good. One of the best troop choices in the game. Deadly and GREAT for holding an objective.
- Thousand Sons - Poor. Very expensive and under-whelming performance. Only redeeming factor is AP3. Too expensive to be readily viable.
- Spawn - Very Poor. Best used as a distraction/speed-bump. Otherwise (or including) they are a helluva waste of 40pts.
- Bikers - Very Poor. Over-costed and under-perform. Can be good delivery for lesser-daemons and special weapons but are otherwise weak.
- Raptors - Good. Marginally more expensive than their recent Codex-cousins, still effective though and can fill good roles. YMMV however.
- Havocs - Poor. Low manoeuvrability and expensive weapons. Marks don't really help either. Can 4x assault weapons or autocannons but are otherwise too weak.
- Predator - Good. Often over-looked, but still pretty cheap and can provide a considerable amount of fire power and armour saturation.
- Vindicator - Good. Some hate it, some love it. Only slightly more expensive than codex-counterpart, but none-the-less very deadly, suits the Chaos play-style and DP can work well.
- Obliterators - Very Good. One of the best heavy choices in the entire game. Versatile, tough, cheap and can be numerous. It's all good.
- Land Raider - Above Average. Lacks PoTMS but is still very tough, very deadly and can work well to deliver assault units. Often under-rated IMHO.
- Defiler - Average. Battle Cannon is a great weapon and the defiler is nice and versatile, being capable in CC and range. Problems are however that it's expensive, is a BIG target and is competing against other, better, choices...
- Greater Daemon - Good. A still good unit, very power and cheap, can appear right in front of enemy too. However, lacks wings and DP is better.
- Lesser Daemons - Average. Reliable deep-strike and pretty good in assault, scoring too. However, lack range and are expensive.
Of course, that's from a game-wise point of view...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
AbaddonFidelis wrote:Chaos sucks heres why
*snip*
AF
All this coming from a guy who's name means Loyal to the Destroyer(Abaddon). (No offense, I just found it quite ironic)
Great post AF, albeit coming from a competitive point of view. Am I correct?
lol yeah I didnt exactly live up to my name there did I.... yeah its from a strictly competitive point of view. for casual play chaos is as good as the player, like other armies...
My 'zerkers have wiped our Ragnar and his Terminator homour guard unit thingy a couple of times.
Admittedly, last time it cost me 8 zerkers to kill Ragnar and 5 termies but points-wise i still won (the SW unit costs around 400-500 points by itself apparently)
I haven´t got enough time, but this is more or less what you see nowadays regarding CSM. What am I missing? They are not competitive because they do not win every single competition? Sorry if I am missing something obvius. I am NOT competitive. But I just don´t understand.
What about Tyranids or Vanilla SM? Black Templars? Dark Angels?
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
I haven´t got enough time, but this is more or less what you see nowadays regarding CSM. What am I missing? They are not competitive because they do not win every single competition? Sorry if I am missing something obvius. I am NOT competitive. But I just don´t understand.
What about Tyranids or Vanilla SM? Black Templars? Dark Angels?
Only if you have the right list.
It goes along the lines of Lash DPs and Oblits.
For friendly games i woudl think CSM can still be good to play. They are units of other, newer codices which seem horribly OP (BA and SW in my case as my friend play both these).
But they do have bonuses over the others: DPs, Olbitz and.....one of my faves.....the fact that your standard marine comes with 2 CC in his wargear, essentially giving all standard chaos marines 2A as standard.
I haven´t got enough time, but this is more or less what you see nowadays regarding CSM. What am I missing? They are not competitive because they do not win every single competition? Sorry if I am missing something obvius. I am NOT competitive. But I just don´t understand.
What about Tyranids or Vanilla SM? Black Templars? Dark Angels?
they didnt win.... they got 4th... if I'm reading your post right....?
In the US where competition they barely get out of the regional qualifiers. Good players can still win with them. but its an uphill fight. Why anyone would want to handicap themselves I dont understand.
I do miss the specific Legions of the previous edition of Chaos and it's flexibility but I do also like the newest version. I often play Havocs, Raptors and Chosen as well as Summoned Greater and Lesser Daemons and find that they all do their part. As with anything each has their good and bad days. I think that Chaos is a great army to play and haven't considered playing anything else.
Sure, it could do with some tweaking and updating, Sorcerers able to nullify that sort of thing, and could take a step back towards it's previous incarnation in some regards, but I think it's good and still a game winner.
Name: Allen El-Sour (England) Chaos Space Marines - Germany 2010
HQ1 : Daemon Prince Wings , Mark of Slaanesh , Lash of Submission
HQ2 : Daemon Prince Wings , Mark of Slaanesh , Lash of Submission
Transport 1 : Rhino , Troop 2
Transport 2 : Rhino , Troop 3
This player and this list wiped out SW, BA or IG mech armies.
USA: one out of eight players (which are supposed to be the best ones) used CSM. Mike Mutscheller. Lash&oblits + Noise Marines he used.
The theory does not match the available data. CSM is competitive enough, as Orks. And the best general was a Black Templar (!).
Why anyone would want to handicap themselves I dont understand.
Should we play Black Templars then? Orks? The average all-around winner are still the Eldar. Space elves then?
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
I think you need a broader data set to argue from, if you're going to talk about what the *data* says. you're basing your argument on the result of 1 event. that's just not convincing to me. how about the results of 10, 20, or 30 events? If you want to find that information then we can have a meaningful conversation about the data. but saying that chaos is competitive because a veteran player got 3rd or 4th place at 1 event? just not enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should we play Black Templars then? Orks? The average all-around winner are still the Eldar. Space elves then?
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/16 13:28:00
AbaddonFidelis wrote:I think you need a broader data set to argue from, if you're going to talk about what the *data* says. you're basing your argument on the result of 1 event. that's just not convincing to me. how about the results of 10, 20, or 30 events? If you want to find that information then we can have a meaningful conversation about the data. but saying that chaos is competitive because a veteran player got 3rd or 4th place at 1 event? just not enough.
It was just an example. It is hard to get data on W40k.
Didn´t they got first in Ard Boys? Didn´t CSM placed 3 in Vegas 2008?4th in UK this year? (I am actually asking; any link?)
I am not saying they are DA BEST. I am saying that they are competitive. They are good enough to win a tournament. And to stay with your favourite army. If you play chaos and change it for a tournament, you will probably get worse results.
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
These armies you are talking about are theoretical dreams born from tactical experts on the Internet. They have been tryed... and failed to make a significant difference. They are not an auto-win at all: a first class player using them can get wiped out by a CSM player (or an Ork, or a Black Templar).
We need more data!
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
From what I've seen, and from my own experiences, CSM are not really a competitive army. They're an aging codex that needs a rewrite, but they can still hold their own against the bigger, more powerful codices. I'd rather play CSM in a tourney than my Necrons, but I still don't expect to win, just not to come in last place.
DS:90S+G++M-B--IPw40k09++D++A++/aWD-R+T(Ot)DM+
Xanaxes IV Tomb World - 12,312 pts. 101 Wins, 244 Losses, 43 Draws.
The Bleak Brotherhood - 2,500 pts. 32 Wins, 81 Losses, 5 Draws.
The Blue Knights - 1,000 pts. 0 Wins, 0 Losses, 0 Draws.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:I think you need a broader data set to argue from, if you're going to talk about what the *data* says. you're basing your argument on the result of 1 event. that's just not convincing to me. how about the results of 10, 20, or 30 events? If you want to find that information then we can have a meaningful conversation about the data. but saying that chaos is competitive because a veteran player got 3rd or 4th place at 1 event? just not enough.
It was just an example. It is hard to get data on W40k. Didn´t they got first in Ard Boys? Didn´t CSM placed 3 in Vegas 2008?4th in UK this year? (I am actually asking; any link?)I am not saying they are DA BEST. I am saying that they are competitive. They are good enough to win a tournament. And to stay with your favourite army. If you play chaos and change it for a tournament, you will probably get worse results.
well as near as I can find these were the results: there were three tournaments, one for the east, one for the midwest, one for the west.
East: 1. Chaos Space Marines, 2. Space Wolves, 3. Blood Angels
Midwest: 1. Chaos Demons, 2. Space Wolves, 3. Eldar
West: 1. Imperial Guard, 2. Orks, 3. Space Wolves
I admit I'm surprised. According to the same thread the CSM player's winning list was:
lash prince x2
berserker squad x2
thousand sons squad x2
plague marines squad x2
summoned lesser demons x20
obliterators x9
presumably the squads were meched up in rhinos. like you said it's really difficult to find information on the tournaments. I guess Clark Welch (the csm player) knows something about that codex that I don't. I won't pretend to know what. All I can do is argue from my own experience..... which suggests that csm are incapable of successfully rhino rushing or outshooting a guard gunline. if anyone has any ideas about what clark welch did, who his opponents were, etc., I'd be interested to know.....
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
These armies you are talking about are theoretical dreams born from tactical experts on the Internet. They have been tryed... and failed to make a significant difference. They are not an auto-win at all: a first class player using them can get wiped out by a CSM player (or an Ork, or a Black Templar).
respectfully, you have no idea where my ideas are coming from.... so I'll just tell you. I argue from my own experience. I'm not copying someone else.
We need more data!
indeed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/16 15:50:13
Shas'O Dorian wrote:The basic competitive CSM list is:
2 DP, wings warptime (some people will argue lash but I find warptime better)
Chosen with Flamer X2 Melta X2 outflank in rhinos
Plague Marines w/ Meltas & rhino
Maybe one unit of summoned daemons to sit on your back objective and this is a BIG maybe.
Oblits or defilers (I prefer oblits tactically but I think the models are gak)
That's about it if you want to be competitive. Some people argue for termicide but I'm adamantly against it, too risky for an elite slot better used by chosen.
Why is it risky? Chosen are basically useless compared to termicide, which does the same thing better and faster.
Chosen have to slog around in a rhino, while termicide just drop in and slice crap up with chainfists and combi-meltas.You can get nine terminators with chainfists and combi-meltas for like 450 points, maybe less if you go for powerfists... They basically guarentee that you'll pop a tank...Of course, I would never take nine of the fethers because I have an affinity towards plasmanoughts.
I'd be willing to argue that those attacks on the defiler would decide the battle between two walker, and that daemonic possession would be invaluable otherwise. Firing that battlecannon is key. I'm sure a defiler could blast apart a dreandought before it even got to it.
Soul Grinders are definitly better than defilers...But in their own army. I can't see soul grinders being as useful in a CSM list..We need shooty stuff \
Huh, I thought abaddon gained 2d6 because he counts as having all the marks, and therefore, his DW would count as being a bloodfeeder or whatever it is.
chosen? terminators? land raiders? obliterators? There are several options, and that's before you consider the fact that you can nearly horde-spam CSM, or other options like raptors
AbaddonFidelis wrote:2. inferior close combat options. against the best close combat units in the game, like thunderwolves, nobz, and assault terminators, these guys dont have any chance at all. without a bone-crushingly good close combat unit, chaos space marines are more or less committed to a strategy that they dont have the tools to excel at.
I see this misconception all the time. You don't need to have stellar individual units and models, you just need to have over all killing power. In a game of imperial guard against grimnar and an all-terminator army, who wins in close combat? Grimnar and his boys get wiped.
Close combat is NOT about he who has the shiniest toys winning.
Yeah, chaos shooting isn't great. Not that it needs to be (look at tau's close combat), but if you're looking for a shooty army, then yeah, put down the chaos codex.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:yeah there are still some solid options but that's the problem. the best units in the chaos codex are solid, nothing more. they don't *excel* sometimes you can still win with them. but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Yes, but you're suffering from "shiny bauble syndrome". As I said in my original post, if all you care about is toys, then a chaos army is not for you. If you want rock solid, if somewhat boring choices that can be used with good tactics to come out on top, chaos is a playground.
Chaos is still winning and placing well, they are cutting it; just that they are not cutting it for some that like the New Hotness and have arbitrary standards to belittle the codex.
This is a much more a subjective issue than objective, in which case there must be shades of grey .
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
Samus_aran115 wrote:Huh, I thought abaddon gained 2d6 because he counts as having all the marks, and therefore, his DW would count as being a bloodfeeder or whatever it is.
The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is technically a fifth mark of the Chaos Gods, unique to Abaddon. While it grants the same bonuses, it does not count as any of the Marks for any other purpose, it's simply there to explain his better profile.
As for the Daemon Weapon, he has Drach'nyen, which is a unique Daemon Weapon and does not gain the properties of other Daemon weapons. It's even mentioned in the asterisk footnote that Abaddon only gains +D6 attacks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/16 16:27:25
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
These armies you are talking about are theoretical dreams born from tactical experts on the Internet. They have been tryed... and failed to make a significant difference. They are not an auto-win at all: a first class player using them can get wiped out by a CSM player (or an Ork, or a Black Templar).
respectfully, you have no idea where my ideas are coming from.... so I'll just tell you. I argue from my own experience. I'm not copying someone else.
My mistake.
Welch´s list is funny indeed. An investigation is needed.
Dreadnoughts? Chaos lords instead of DP? Looks like there is not a "best list". We have got plenty of options. And that´s good.
@Samus_aran115
I must admit I find Termys risky too. There is always a lot of plasma and melta around. They appear, trying not to scatter, they shoot (sometimes missing), they die. Same thing with Oblits. They strike hard, but they can fail. Risky.
However we agree about the Defiler. It is mainly a walking battlecannon that can destroy anything from afar. If you keep it moving and firing, it is quite effective.
And do not forget both units are beautiful. We are going too competitive here.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
I think the big complaint for people is mostly in the fluff the codex is essentially codex Spikey Marines. I started playing chaos space marines this year. I don't have any experience with the old codex till I skimmed thru it in a used book store. the legion rules were awesome and I would love to have played with them.
cyrax777 wrote:I think the big complaint for people is mostly in the fluff the codex is essentially codex Spikey Marines. I started playing chaos space marines this year. I don't have any experience with the old codex till I skimmed thru it in a used book store. the legion rules were awesome and I would love to have played with them.
Well it IS my biggest complaint, that´s for sure. We got like 9 different armies, and I liked all of them but the Black Legion - Renegades. Now I only have Black Legion - Renegades.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
And Red Corsairs! However they're very similar to BL soooo....Yeah XD
Not to mention almost total nerf of Mono-god armies. I want my Sonic and Rubric Terminators damnit!
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
chosen? terminators? land raiders? obliterators? There are several options, and that's before you consider the fact that you can nearly horde-spam CSM, or other options like raptors
oh please. rhinos + deep strike is good mobility? come on lets be serious.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:2. inferior close combat options. against the best close combat units in the game, like thunderwolves, nobz, and assault terminators, these guys dont have any chance at all. without a bone-crushingly good close combat unit, chaos space marines are more or less committed to a strategy that they dont have the tools to excel at.
I see this misconception all the time. You don't need to have stellar individual units and models, you just need to have over all killing power. In a game of imperial guard against grimnar and an all-terminator army, who wins in close combat? Grimnar and his boys get wiped.
Close combat is NOT about he who has the shiniest toys winning.
Although Kharne has a certain gleam to him...
you need power weapons to compete against thunderwolves, assault terminators, etc. volume of attack strategies dont work. run an equal points worth of csm, zerkers, or whatever you want vs. assault terminators, give the csm the charge. the assault terminators, thunderwovles, etc. will win.
Yeah, chaos shooting isn't great. Not that it needs to be (look at tau's close combat), but if you're looking for a shooty army, then yeah, put down the chaos codex.
it needs to be if they can't win in close combat.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:yeah there are still some solid options but that's the problem. the best units in the chaos codex are solid, nothing more. they don't *excel* sometimes you can still win with them. but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Yes, but you're suffering from "shiny bauble syndrome".
no one's suffering.... Ailaros...
As I said in my original post
my mistake for not referencing your opinions before having some of my own. sorry. really I am.
if all you care about is toys, then a chaos army is not for you. If you want rock solid, if somewhat boring choices that can be used with good tactics to come out on top, chaos is a playground.
do you actually play this book, out of curiosity?
AF
Automatically Appended Next Post:
da001 wrote:
AbaddonFidelis wrote:
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
These armies you are talking about are theoretical dreams born from tactical experts on the Internet. They have been tryed... and failed to make a significant difference. They are not an auto-win at all: a first class player using them can get wiped out by a CSM player (or an Ork, or a Black Templar).
respectfully, you have no idea where my ideas are coming from.... so I'll just tell you. I argue from my own experience. I'm not copying someone else.
My mistake.
Welch´s list is funny indeed. An investigation is needed.
Dreadnoughts? Chaos lords instead of DP? Looks like there is not a "best list". We have got plenty of options. And that´s good.
I looked over his list. I really wish we had more information. I dont understand what this list is supposed to do vs. a battery of 10-15 twin linked lascannons. every one of those rhinos is going to get splashed on turn 1, then the defilers and the demon prince on turn 2. How is this not an auto-lose vs. a guard gunline? or against missile spam space wolves? how is he going to beat a thundercav list in close combat? His list has exactly the problems I'm talking about. He's not fast enough to run the gauntlet of enemy shooting or strong enough in close combat to beat hard core assaulters. I would never play his list.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/12/16 17:43:18
There is no point in arguing with deniers. As long as the codex can win battles they are content that Chaos Players are just QQing about it and wanting more power. They will never understand why we want our Legion rules back. Honestly only those who have known 3.5 in and out will truely know what we have lost in the 4th ed update.
The most common complaint now is that there are too many Marine armies, and that they should be cut back. Chaos has it's own variant marine armies, but in 3.5 they handled it flawlessly with the Legion rules and Books of Chaos, all in one codex no less.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/12/16 17:50:35
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
Agreeing with AF agreeing with MechaEmperor7000.
I miss spiky bitz...
This is a little story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that because it was Everybody's job.
Everybody thought that Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
It is turning into the DH/WH and Necron armies. Good when they came out but not up to these new codexes. 21pt Berzerkers are trumped in nearly every way by 20pt Death Company. Plague Marines have handy T5 but FNP is easy to overcome. Thousand Sons are great in my eyes but are too expensive and S&P is annoying. I like icons and the wierd weapons Lords can have but DP's seem weak now.
Funny how we each are dedicated to a different god XD
EDIT: Ninja'd
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/16 18:21:04
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
I've played CSM since 2nd Ed and they are in the worst state Ive ever seen them in.
Why did they need to change the 3.5 dex aside from selling more product??? The book was awesome.
Now we are left with a poor rules set that badly needs updating.
But all is not at a loss...
If you don't mind fandexes, I'm playtesting a really good Chaos one ATM. It's not overpowered at all and so far plays like an official dex.
It's got sweet rules like Abaddon letting you take Undivided Chosen and Undivided Terminators as Troops choices.
I'll post it up when the owner has finished it.
Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right.
Sanctjud wrote:Agreeing with AF agreeing with MechaEmperor7000.
I miss spiky bitz...
YESS!!!! spikey bitz!!!!
eliminated by gav thorpe because it was a "frill" so wrong! it was master-crafted for chaos. tragic loss.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Puscifer wrote:I've played CSM since 2nd Ed and they are in the worst state Ive ever seen them in.
Why did they need to change the 3.5 dex aside from selling more product??? The book was awesome.
Now we are left with a poor rules set that badly needs updating.
But all is not at a loss...
If you don't mind fandexes, I'm playtesting a really good Chaos one ATM. It's not overpowered at all and so far plays like an official dex.
It's got sweet rules like Abaddon letting you take Undivided Chosen and Undivided Terminators as Troops choices.
I'll post it up when the owner has finished it.
link?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/16 18:32:37
(No offense, I just found it quite ironic)
(Iron Warriors) 
The Blue Knights - 1,000 pts. 0 Wins, 0 Losses, 0 Draws.
