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wuestenfux wrote:

Chaos is, IMHO, running with a very real disadvantage versus 5E codexes, especially when confronted with power-tuned 5E codex lists. If you're in an area that doesn't feature many of these players, that may explain why you're not seeing the problems yet. Space Wolves, in particular, are a huge problem for me.

What SW list?
I played three times with my EC army vs. SW and tabled them twice,
while the last game was a minor win.

Razorspam with TWC deathstar and Long Fangs (sometimes a couple Vindicators). They pop your Rhinos, and then the TWC comes in for the kill. It's not subtle, but it works. Lash only goes so far against this kind of list, due to range constraints.

erwos wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Chaos is, IMHO, running with a very real disadvantage versus 5E codexes, especially when confronted with power-tuned 5E codex lists. If you're in an area that doesn't feature many of these players, that may explain why you're not seeing the problems yet. Space Wolves, in particular, are a huge problem for me.

What SW list?
I played three times with my EC army vs. SW and tabled them twice,
while the last game was a minor win.

Razorspam with TWC deathstar and Long Fangs (sometimes a couple Vindicators). They pop your Rhinos, and then the TWC comes in for the kill. It's not subtle, but it works. Lash only goes so far against this kind of list, due to range constraints.

You could leave the Rhinos in reserve.
This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.

TWC....Guh. That's all I have to say. I liked in third edition when ANY character in the army could take a juggernaut. They granted +2S and +2T at the time, without granting the extra movement. They were amazing. Not to mention we had a unit of daemonic cavalry, which let you spam the monsters. I haven't seen any lists using them, but it was 11 years ago

wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.

With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.

erwos wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.

With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.

I guess you're right.
They can easily hide and are fast enough to be in your face next turn.
I battled such a list recently - battle report some here.
But the opponent was a good but not a top player and so I could handle it.

I think the problem for chaos is that there are currently not enough top players playing it. It's not as 'point and click' as most 5e codex and takes some time to learn. However in good hands the codex can be deadly and absolutely does well against some long held archtypes out there. Let me put it another way: Chaos can really mess with the meta if you are not careful.

DarthDiggler wrote:I think the problem for chaos is that there are currently not enough top players playing it. It's not as 'point and click' as most 5e codex and takes some time to learn. However in good hands the codex can be deadly and absolutely does well against some long held archtypes out there. Let me put it another way: Chaos can really mess with the meta if you are not careful.

I know a guy locally who tries that by running Chaoszilla with 1kSons. He does very well, but I have not heard of him actually winning a national-level tournament (he does well locally, thought!). There is a reason the top guys are not running Chaos; it's because the codex just isn't as good as the new ones. It's not that you can't win, but you're going to be playing with a disadvantage. In a competitive tournament, you play with the codex that gives you the advantage...

erwos wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:I think the problem for chaos is that there are currently not enough top players playing it. It's not as 'point and click' as most 5e codex and takes some time to learn. However in good hands the codex can be deadly and absolutely does well against some long held archtypes out there. Let me put it another way: Chaos can really mess with the meta if you are not careful.

I know a guy locally who tries that by running Chaoszilla with 1kSons. He does very well, but I have not heard of him actually winning a national-level tournament (he does well locally, thought!). There is a reason the top guys are not running Chaos; it's because the codex just isn't as good as the new ones. It's not that you can't win, but you're going to be playing with a disadvantage. In a competitive tournament, you play with the codex that gives you the advantage...

no you play the one thats you like the most and kick butt with it >~

also i recently found out that i can run the same number of terminators for the same price as my zerkers (i know i didnt believe it either), so i revamped my list and added the terminators in instead of the zerkers. I still have to test run the army once i get the terminators in but i think it will be really fun, especially since i found out they dont have slow and purposeful and Chaos has the cheapest terminators in the game ;3

heres a link to the army
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/334793.page#2250525

erwos wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.

With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.

Yeah, this is the problem. Generally speaking, you can run a Chaos army that will decimate another specific list. It's a very versatile codex for making hitman builds. The problem is, the current Chaos dex really fails for making all-comers style lists.

FWIW, there are Chaos builds that I feel might be competitive, it's just that nobody tries them. I've never seen anyone run 3 x 10 Chaos Terminator squads, but at 900 pts + upgrades that's not half bad for foot slogging. You wouldn't have to worry too much about getting violated by AP2 pieplate nonsense as you could really spread them out.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

erwos wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.

With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.

Yeah, this is the problem. Generally speaking, you can run a Chaos army that will decimate another specific list. It's a very versatile codex for making hitman builds. The problem is, the current Chaos dex really fails for making all-comers style lists.

FWIW, there are Chaos builds that I feel might be competitive, it's just that nobody tries them. I've never seen anyone run 3 x 10 Chaos Terminator squads, but at 900 pts + upgrades that's not half bad for foot slogging. You wouldn't have to worry too much about getting violated by AP2 pieplate nonsense as you could really spread them out.

Should look at my list i just put above its pretty close to that

zhangbob wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

erwos wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.

With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.

Yeah, this is the problem. Generally speaking, you can run a Chaos army that will decimate another specific list. It's a very versatile codex for making hitman builds. The problem is, the current Chaos dex really fails for making all-comers style lists.

FWIW, there are Chaos builds that I feel might be competitive, it's just that nobody tries them. I've never seen anyone run 3 x 10 Chaos Terminator squads, but at 900 pts + upgrades that's not half bad for foot slogging. You wouldn't have to worry too much about getting violated by AP2 pieplate nonsense as you could really spread them out.

Should look at my list i just put above its pretty close to that

That's cool and all, but you really need Chain Fists in those squads. Don't want your 300 pt squad getting tarpitted by a sentinel.

figured my DPs with wings can take out anything serious before my Terms get their mech wise

When you're investing that many points and have a relatively low number of units, it's good to make those units flexible and able to take on whatever they happen to run across. Especially if they're not very mobile.

FWIW, there are Chaos builds that I feel might be competitive, it's just that nobody tries them. I've never seen anyone run 3 x 10 Chaos Terminator squads, but at 900 pts + upgrades that's not half bad for foot slogging. You wouldn't have to worry too much about getting violated by AP2 pieplate nonsense as you could really spread them out.

Didn't 40kEnthusiast write a big post a while back about unusual chaos variations which can be very competitive? As I recall he ran this type of list and won or got Best General at a small GT or very large RT. He also had an awesome-looking anti-Mech IG spoiler build for Ard Boyz using big squads of walking plague marines, led by Abby and Kharne.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found the post- it's from March.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/283279.page

Some really cool stuff in there.

can someone explain to me how for his term build he would use the terminators to take out ranged threats before the others camei n from reserve

only good ranged thing he has on terms is a reaper cannon which only has 7 strength.....not good vs vehicles...

Don't know what you're looking for specifically, but I like to use squads of 4, 3x combimelta, heavy flamer, and chainfist deepstriking in. It was potent enough to kill any single model it landed next to while being dirt cheap and forcing my opponent to deal with a dozen rampaging Terminators in the backfield.

Yeah I run my terminators in squads of three with combi meltas, and a chainfist almost exactly what you have sourclams
It freaks the crud out of people, not only do you usually kill one of their vehicles, but if they don't shoot them down there's a high chance you'll kill another

Here is 40Enthusiast's list:

Abaddon
Typhus
3 x 10 Terminators, a Nurgly shooty unit, a Tzeentchy shooty unit and a Slaaneshy fighty unit
2 x 5 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, one has rhino

This list catches a lot of people off guard, but I've won a tourney with it and have a great win/loss record. Basically it wins KP by Death Star, and wins objectives by sending Terminators to take their long range threats out while the scorers wait in reserve. Once delivered, Abaddon and Typhus wreck face. I think the list would be stronger with a Lasher for Typhus, he could have Terminator armor to keep the theme going.

Taking long-range threats out?
Just by hoofing across the board and killing them at short range or in cc?

At the risk of being flamed as a Noob etc etc.

Could someone explain termicide to me?

Praxiss wrote:At the risk of being flamed as a Noob etc etc.

Could someone explain termicide to me?

Small unit of Termies, say 3 Termies with combi-meltas, deep striking close to an enemy tank trying to destroy it in one volley.

Gotcha. I tend to do that with a trio of Oblits. Send in a small squad of Raptors or barrel round the flanks with a rhino with an icon so the Blitz dont scatter.

Once that's doen they can then try to roll up the back end of the battle, using Multi meltas or H Flamers, dependin on the target.

Obliterators are too expensive and too versatile to send them to a suicide mission.
Termicide is cheap, around 105 pts, and expendable.

My thinking was that if it works, it's not a suicide missions and they can move on to take out other targets.

With the Termicide, once they unload those combis, that's it for tank busting.

Again, just my opinion and i've never used it myself so i have no experience. But assuming that the Termie squad lands and pops the target LR 9for example) on the first volley, what are they good for after that? Wouldn't a squad of 3 be too small to wade into combat with full size infnatry squads? I suppose they could use CC to try and take out Rhinos.

Well, a Termicide squad could be small enough to land in a smaller spot close to a tank.
If it fails and scatters or get destroyed upon landing,
you don't need to care too much as its rather cheap.
After their arrival, the unit is often going to die. In fact, the enemy has to deal with it.

True enough. I'll give it a go in my next game. In apoc games i often use Termie-spam and go with the Doombringer formation (Termie Lord + 15 termies) - esepcially if you can land an icon first ( i go with Abaddon for a little extra kick). Lol.

Hence adding a chainfist for an extra 10 points. Means the opponent HAS to deal with them or they lose tanks quickly.

While 3 cant wade into big units, they can happily kill guard HW teams, long fangs etc. This makes them a threat and means the opponent has to spend disproportionate amounts of firepower to kill them, meanin gyour key units can advance under less fire.

The other advantage they have over Oblits is they use your otherwise pretty pointless elite slot.

Oh yeah, the Elites slot. I also like using an outflanking squad of Melta Chosen in a rhino (with a combi melta on top). Similar points cost but they can keep on killing after the first volley (which can also be taken from the safety of the Rhino if the opponent deploys close enough to the table edge.

Other than that i never use the Elites slot.

I still have a love for dreadnoughts, despite the numebr of times they have cost me the game...

Yeah, i have mixed experience with Dreads. the Crazed thign isn't as bad due to walkers fire arc no longer being 360 degrees. Sometimes they perfom amzingly well, others they just flail around the table taking space.

Yeah, Dreads are possibly good in an MC heavy army with DPs, GD, Defilers, Dreads, and Daemons as troops.
Should be a viable option.

wuestenfux wrote:Here is 40Enthusiast's list:

Abaddon
Typhus
3 x 10 Terminators, a Nurgly shooty unit, a Tzeentchy shooty unit and a Slaaneshy fighty unit
2 x 5 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, one has rhino

This list catches a lot of people off guard, but I've won a tourney with it and have a great win/loss record. Basically it wins KP by Death Star, and wins objectives by sending Terminators to take their long range threats out while the scorers wait in reserve. Once delivered, Abaddon and Typhus wreck face. I think the list would be stronger with a Lasher for Typhus, he could have Terminator armor to keep the theme going.

Taking long-range threats out?
Just by hoofing across the board and killing them at short range or in cc?

Yup. I expect that the three units just form kind of a wall, pushing across the table, perhaps at an angle depending on the exact terrain and enemy deployment. Then the scoring models enter the table later, well behind the wall of terminators, and do their best to hide completely while grabbing objectives if the mission so requires.