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Terminators might be jumping on the Deathwing Bandwagon again, however I fully agree that Abaddon should have Chosen as troops in his army.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh please. rhinos + deep strike is good mobility? come on lets be serious.

Wow, what is your definition of mobility?

Horde armies have plenty sufficient mobility, and they don't even necessarily have outflankers, deepstrikers, or transports. If an army requires fast skimmers to have mobility, then I don't think it's the codex that needs adjusting.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:you need power weapons to compete against thunderwolves, assault terminators, etc. volume of attack strategies dont work. run an equal points worth of csm, zerkers, or whatever you want vs. assault terminators, give the csm the charge. the assault terminators, thunderwovles, etc. will win.

Comparing a single dedicated assault unit to a single non-dedicated assault unit that costs half as much is silly.

Ignoring things like the fact that chaos can also bring terminators, when you do the math for even regular CSM they are plenty capable of beating terminators point-by-point.

Of course, dedicated assault units like terminators come on big bases and cost a lot of points per model, so of course they must be scary...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:do you actually play this book, out of curiosity?

Do I have to?

Like many people, I can use objectivity to determine the quality of something by observation. Otherwise, the only way you could possibly choose which army to play is to buy, paint, and play all of them several times and then choose which one happened to do the best for you in the games you played.

Ailaros wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh please. rhinos + deep strike is good mobility? come on lets be serious.

Wow, what is your definition of mobility?

fast skimmers? jump pack armies with descent of angels? fleet of foot + 12 inch charge? are you trolling or do you really just not see the difference?

Horde armies have plenty sufficient mobility, and they don't even necessarily have outflankers, deepstrikers, or transports. If an army requires fast skimmers to have mobility, then I don't think it's the codex that needs adjusting.

if by "horde" you mean "tyranid," they do have mobility options. outflank, fleet, infiltrate, etc.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:you need power weapons to compete against thunderwolves, assault terminators, etc. volume of attack strategies dont work. run an equal points worth of csm, zerkers, or whatever you want vs. assault terminators, give the csm the charge. the assault terminators, thunderwovles, etc. will win.

Comparing a single dedicated assault unit to a single non-dedicated assault unit that costs half as much is silly.

I said point for point not model for model. why dont you read what I write before replying to it?

Ignoring things like the fact that chaos can also bring terminators

who dont have a good delivery mechanism. re: mobility.

, when you do the math for even regular CSM they are plenty capable of beating terminators point-by-point.

nonsense

Of course, dedicated assault units like terminators come on big bases and cost a lot of points per model, so of course they must be scary...

what are you even talking about?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:do you actually play this book, out of curiosity?

Do I have to?

wouldnt do any harm

Like many people, I can use objectivity to determine the quality of something by observation.

so... basically... what you're saying is that I have 1st hand experience and you don't, but because you're a super-smarty your opinion is better grounded. lol ok whatever.

Otherwise, the only way you could possibly choose which army to play is to buy, paint, and play all of them several times and then choose which one happened to do the best for you in the games you played.

or you could make a list of what you want in an army and then go find the codex that best conforms to that list.
AF

CSM have some very basic mobility, but all of it is literally textbook. Every other race has some sort of mobility modifier (non-mishaping deepstrike for Nids and Marines, various types of fleet + Charge and Run modifiers for Nids, Aircrafts for BA and Imp Guard).

Observation is one thing, but reading the book would mean you get into the mindset and playstyle of the army, comparable to a third person and first person. From a third person point of view you can deduce what your opponent's thinking and what his strategies *might* be. From a first person point of view you know exactly what strategies you have at your disposal. AF obviously have played CSM for some time, and so have I. There are things clearly lacking for them compared to the meta armies (not just to Nilla Marines). Deepstrikers in Chaos armies are horribly ineffective compared to what others can field. DE has Webway Portals. BA has Descent of Angels (and deepstriking Land Raiders), Nilla Marines have Drop Pods, Nids have the Trygon and Mycetic Spore, not to mention being able to spawn gaunts on command (although the book still rightly sucks) and Guards have Valks, and they're not even a close combat army to begin with. There's something seriously wrong when even the gunline armies have more mobility than the CC armies.

just my 2 cents.

Sorry dude. I only have a paper copy ATM. But as soon as I have the go ahead I'll PDF it and post it up.

If there is one thing I can tell you about it, it is this...

Take the 4th ed dex and throw it away. THIS IS CHAOS!!!
They play exactly how the fluff reads. It has rules for all the legions, all the special characters, a couple of new ones, some new units, Daemons, fully updated rules for current units and the best part... They don't play like Imperial Marines, they are a totally different army, when compared to the loyalist pig dogs.

yeah please do. I would really like to play chaos again.

I woudl be interested in having a look at this FanDex when it's ready as well.

You see quite a few of them floatign around but they tend to be a bit iffy at times.

I can't see a new Chaos Codex comign out for a whiel though. I think there are a few armies that are due first......but that's for a different thread. So it's either use a fandex or stick with the current one for the time being i suppose.

Most of the chaos fandexes are just unbalanced. It is sad but true. They are no fun.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yeah please do. I would really like to play chaos again.

I do believe you are being too competitive. If you want to play chaos again, then play chaos again. Just my 2 cents.

Is Chaos worse than the newer books? Yes.
Does Chaos ned a new book? Yes.
Does Chaos need an update more than any other book ATM?
No. No way.

Eldar, Orks and CSM are probably the three 4th ed. books that "need" their updates the least. Compare the CSM codex to any of the 3rd edition 'dexes, Tau, Daemons and both the loyalist variants (disregarding any personal opinion on wether they should exist, just suppose they should) and THEN come and say that Chaos "doesn't cut it".

Is Chaos worse than the newer books? Yes.
Does Chaos ned a new book? Yes.
Does Chaos need an update more than any other book ATM?
No. No way.

I'd agree with this part. Chaos can still win, they just aren't doing it with as much style or as efficiently.

Eldar, Orks and CSM are probably the three 4th ed. books that "need" their updates the least. Compare the CSM codex to any of the 3rd edition 'dexes, Tau, Daemons and both the loyalist variants (disregarding any personal opinion on wether they should exist, just suppose they should) and THEN come and say that Chaos "doesn't cut it".

Orks and CSM are still ok. Eldar is a trash codex with one build. Tau is horrible. Necrons are horrible. Grey Knights are horrible. Dark Angels and Templars...who really cares? Just use another Marine dex. As for Daemons...people just don't understand how to play them. I actually find them to be much more competitive than my CSM army

wow i went without my computer for a few days and this thread really took off without me D:

Yes i know more armys are in much more dire need of a new codex (thats not why i posted this forum)

I have my 1500pt army bought and put together (I get to start painting soon).

Yes i used to play what i could back in late middle school / early high school of Khorne, i started 2 days before the 3rd edition codex came out.

I like a lot of information that was being tossed around, and YES this forum was ment to be looked at from a competitive view point. If i was looking for playing for fun i would not have bothered asking if chaos could cut it.

Right now i know oblitorators are good, but i cant stand them. No logical reason as to why i cant, but i jsut cant so i attempted to make a competitve 1500pt chaos army without them.
I agree havocs arent talked about because for them to be very effective they jsut cost too many points compared to other choices. Defilers are so versatile i know something good can be done with them.
My army is made on the basis that i have so many Big threats on the board that the 3 squads of beserkers, WILL be the last thing your shooting at.

agian i agree lack of mobility.

Idk what the person was talking about a squad of asssualt terms can do whatever a chosen squad can do but better....i spend 140-150 points on a squad of infiltrating chosen with 4 or 5 meltas and maybe a flamer, that's almost guaranteed to take out a tank (or nice models in an expensive squad) that are worth many more points than the chosen are. A squad of assualt terms who will drop in around turn 3 (when my army supposedly would already be in CC if they made it) not to mention they cost a ton more points than the chosen squad so i could have taken multiple infiltrating chosen melta or flamer squads for the term assualt price.

I was quite suprised to read chaos CAN score up there with good armys. Most armys you all showed looked like 2500pts+ and all used plague marines which is great.
I would run plague marines but I'm still a deditcated khorne fan even if the rules are gonna be stacked agianst it. I'm pretty confident in my army atm, and im gonna play test it later today to see the faults and strength in it that i couldn't see now.

Thank you for all the comments and increasing my insight on the matter instead of jsut hearing from the people at my store just telling me they are bad....i plan to have a nice suprise for them ;D

Cookie Cutter armies from the CSM dex do really well, it's not like they cant hold their own. Currently any complaints mainly stem from a fluff and customization perspective. If you want to win, you have to go with cookie cutter.

cookie cutter builds are for people who dont know how to capitalize on their own playing style ;D


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i guess that and i havent seen any 1500 pt zerker builds that dont have plague marines in them


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you know i finally realize why i dont like oblitorators....they are jsut a pile of guns you call a space marine....why have a pile of guns when i can jsut take my chances running at you and face roll you

I feel like I constantly come in and defend these guys when they are getting bashed, but I actually LIKE the Chaos Marine codex right now. Sure, I miss a couple of items from 3.5, but I love the codex as it stands now, and I haven't actually lost a single game I've played: I played against a fully decked out terminator list for DA and wiped 3/4 of the army in one turn: when the DA got the charge! And I've also violently bent over a tank based IG army and proceeded to violate it worse than that current picture of Margaret Thatcher has done to all of our eyes in Shrike's recent topic.

Am I just having amazing luck with my chaos marines? I have quite a few friends who just steamroll everyone with chaos too, and none of our lists are the same: I haven't run a single Slaanesh Prince yet, even though I'm a devotee of Slaanesh-there is no need. Terminators with Mark of Slaanesh, half with combi-meltas, half with lighting claws, and you're well on your way to absolute victory. So many armies can't handle that in CC. Obliterators are the MOST versitile infantry models in the game and I don't know a single CSM player who leaves home without them. Hell, I run 2-3 units of 2 and they just own. Sure, we don't get dedicated land raiders, we don't get storm shields or thunderhammers, and some of our costs are either a bit higher or with slightly worse abilities than regular marines, but with the Chaos Marks and daemonic posessions flying around, we still have a DAMN-FUN codex to play and haters should be ashamed. Just try something new: my next attempt will include a bunch of Noise Marines (but these guys, in all fairness, DO need to have a points drop-they're the only unit I feel is really hurting right now in the codex, but I love em anyway).

<---- doesnt even allow obliterates in his house, although i fear i may live to regret this decision

Cookie cutter builds are fun. They take the best aspects of the codex and roll them up into one thing. Who doesn't like:

DP- MOS, Lash, wings
DP- MON, Warptime, wings

Troops:
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ

Heavy:
x3 Obliterators
x3 Obliterators
x3 Obliterators

Heh, yeah, but there are other ways to play chaos competitively, I'm sure.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh please. rhinos + deep strike is good mobility? come on lets be serious.

Wow, what is your definition of mobility?

fast skimmers? jump pack armies with descent of angels? fleet of foot + 12 inch charge? are you trolling or do you really just not see the difference?

If you have to have those things in order to be considered "mobile" then your definition of "mobility" is way askew to what constitutes sufficient mobility in-game.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

when you do the math for even regular CSM they are plenty capable of beating terminators point-by-point.

nonsense

Sense.

5 TH/SSassault termies

compared to

10x CSM with 2x melta, chosen with power fist

bolt pistols and meltaguns kill 1 and the 27 chainsword attacks on the charge kill another. The Champion has about a half chance to put down a third while the remaining terminators kill 2 or 3 CSM. The next assault phase, the CSM finish off the termiators with another casualty or two in return.

Regular CSMs charging their points in assault terminators sees the CSM winning with enough left over to do it all over a second time.

The only way that regular troops fail to kill them is if you're a crappy player or you have terrible luck.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Like many people, I can use objectivity to determine the quality of something by observation.

so... basically... what you're saying is that I have 1st hand experience and you don't, but because you're a super-smarty your opinion is better grounded. lol ok whatever.

Your arguments appear to be based on a couple of die rolls you made in your basement or local game store. Your player skill and your luck have very little bearing on the rest of us, with different skill levels, different opponents, different luck, and alltogether different circumstances.

Taking a subjective data set and calling it objective truth is simply incorrect. If I woke up one day and saw that it was cloudy, would it be right for me to say that the sky is always grey?

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Otherwise, the only way you could possibly choose which army to play is to buy, paint, and play all of them several times and then choose which one happened to do the best for you in the games you played.

or you could make a list of what you want in an army and then go find the codex that best conforms to that list.
AF

Samus_aran115 wrote:Cookie cutter builds are fun. They take the best aspects of the codex and roll them up into one thing. Who doesn't like:

DP- MOS, Lash, wings
DP- MON, Warptime, wings

Troops:
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ

Heavy:
x3 Obliterators
x3 Obliterators
x3 Obliterators

Hummmmm..... so much cheese... it is almost obscene.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Cookie cutter builds are fun. They take the best aspects of the codex and roll them up into one thing. Who doesn't like:

DP- MOS, Lash, wings
DP- MON, Warptime, wings

Troops:
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ
x5 Plague Marines, x2 meltas, rhino, PF champ

Heavy:
x3 Obliterators
x3 Obliterators
x3 Obliterators

3 oblitorators in 1 squad be bad man

I'm not going to lie, I've played this list once or twice. With proxies of course No way I'd spend all that money on nine obliterators.


also, ailaros...where are you getting the 27 chainsword attacks from? A csm unit would only ever get like 20 attacks on the charge..did you mean 17?

I agree that it's possible that a CSM unit could handle a unit of 5 TH/SS termies, especially because of their lack of shooting to cause any damage in shooting.... Truth is, a lot of things can handle THSS termies, but sometimes it's better to just stay away from them anyway

9 regular CSM and 1 with a power fist. A CSM has 1 attack. Then they get one for the pistol+ccw, and then they get 1 more for the charge. It drops to 2 after that, but the termies are still screwed.

Just regular CSM are a really solid troops choice. That's before you give them the ability to always strike first, have FOUR attacks on the charge, or a terminator invul save...

Ailaros wrote:9 regular CSM and 1 with a power fist. A CSM has 1 attack. Then they get one for the pistol+ccw, and then they get 1 more for the charge. It drops to 2 after that, but the termies are still screwed.

Just regular CSM are a really solid troops choice. That's before you give them the ability to always strike first, have FOUR attacks on the charge, or a terminator invul save...

Oh, I keep foretting. I thought the extra attack was included in their profiles for some reason Looks like I should've been getting way more attacks for the past dozen games

yeah. The free bolt pistol is actually a really important asset of CSM, and is really easy to overlook.

Basically, you get striking scorpions as troops choices who lose infiltrate for a better statline.

ok, i have a question for those here.

I just recently got into warhammer, like september kind of recently.

I have a small chaos army sitting mostly unassembled and unpainted at the moment (3 7 man plague marine squads, a predator, a biker, a lord and some OOP possessed) (going is slow, i have 3 plagues being painted now, a half assembled bike and have two plagues assembled and painted)

Now, my question is this : have i picked the wrong army? (i picked for fluff reasons) i dont plan to play competetively at all, mostly casual.

Reading the thread, ive aparently been making the wrong purchases, so what will be the right purchases? what should i do next?

Reading this thread has made me think ive messed up, and should just change and go with orks instead, which is my second choice.

Welcome, Raven!

Chaos Space Marines is an excellent army. One of the cornerstones of 40k. Rich in background and modeling opportunity, and quite competitive on the tabletop. There are a few flaws with the codex, and some bad units, but overall it's an excellent choice for someone enjoying any of the three major parts of the hobby- background, modeling/painting, and competition.

I responded to a similar post to yours very recently in the Tactics forum, and I hope you won't mind if I quote myself:

Mannahnin wrote:I had taken some time off from the Army Lists forum for the past few months, but by lucky chance I've been frequenting it again in the last few days, and have probably done a half dozen or more detailed rebuilds of various CSM lists. Let me see if I can get you a few links...

1850 Death Guard list & discussion:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330792.page#2172661

2000 mixed-powers list rebuild & discussion:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330496.page#2174192

1500 Khorne & unmarked mix with terminators:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330555.page

2000pt mixed-powers:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329707.page#2151569

1500 Khorne themed (with Lash/nurgle Princes, but Khorne prince option in discussion):
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330800.page#2170656

1500 Iron Warriors mech army with comments:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330892.page#2172356

1500 Rhino rush with Chosen:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330510.page#2166512

Chaos has very solid troops, and both Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are very useful and deadly HQs.
Chaos has terrible Fast Attack units.
Chaos Elites are pretty good, but because all of your units tend to be on the pricey side, you need to keep the costs down here to afford enough Troops.
You almost always want several Rhinos to get your squads where they need to go.
You almost always want to get a bunch of melta weapons into your troop squads, because antitank shooting is otherwise limited in the army.
Heavy Support is pretty much your only source of ranged antitank, and they're pretty much all good options, though our land raiders are not nearly as good as loyalist ones, so they're not very popular.

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AbaddonFidelis wrote:

da001 wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I think you need a broader data set to argue from, if you're going to talk about what the *data* says. you're basing your argument on the result of 1 event. that's just not convincing to me. how about the results of 10, 20, or 30 events? If you want to find that information then we can have a meaningful conversation about the data. but saying that chaos is competitive because a veteran player got 3rd or 4th place at 1 event? just not enough.

It was just an example. It is hard to get data on W40k. Didn´t they got first in Ard Boys? Didn´t CSM placed 3 in Vegas 2008?4th in UK this year? (I am actually asking; any link?)I am not saying they are DA BEST. I am saying that they are competitive. They are good enough to win a tournament. And to stay with your favourite army. If you play chaos and change it for a tournament, you will probably get worse results.

well as near as I can find these were the results: there were three tournaments, one for the east, one for the midwest, one for the west.
East: 1. Chaos Space Marines, 2. Space Wolves, 3. Blood Angels
Midwest: 1. Chaos Demons, 2. Space Wolves, 3. Eldar
West: 1. Imperial Guard, 2. Orks, 3. Space Wolves


I admit I'm surprised. According to the same thread the CSM player's winning list was:
[erroneous list redacted]

presumably the squads were meched up in rhinos. like you said it's really difficult to find information on the tournaments. I guess Clark Welch (the csm player) knows something about that codex that I don't. I won't pretend to know what. All I can do is argue from my own experience..... which suggests that csm are incapable of successfully rhino rushing or outshooting a guard gunline. if anyone has any ideas about what clark welch did, who his opponents were, etc., I'd be interested to know.....

You have the list a bit wrong. I played him and wrote about it here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/306059.page#1764958

Obsidian Raven wrote: have i picked the wrong army?

No, you have chosen wisely.

I have greatly enjoyed my chaos list, even the things that people have said are "bad." T6 bikers are fun! Especially if you aren't running in an uber-competitive envioronment, you'll have no problems at all.

One of my favorite things about the modeling aspect of Chaos is that anything goes! I've been greenstuffing all sorts of wierd new creatures and making modifications to existing ones. I've also been working on summoned daemons, which wil eventually give me a second army in the form of pure Codex Daemons. I'm also planning on running a bunch of recently turned renegades still in their chapter colors to add variety.

Lots of fun times to be had with Chaos.

Gameplay wise, Raven, Chaos is still very competitive and usable. It also doesn't need much experience if you go with some more cookie cutter builds (Oblits give you options in the field and because of that they're forgiving to new players. the casual CSM has a strong gun, good statline, two CCWs and decent armor, and being the cheapest of all it's counterparts bar the Grey Hunter) As long as you dont need to conform to fluff or a particular god, you should be fine and not severely handicapped like the Grey Knights or something.

And Ailaros, AF has player skills due to first hand experience, negated the luck factor entirely because he has been playing them for a good sum of time, and has whatever subjective observational data you have as well because he can observe the codex from both your stand point, a player stand point, and from a historical stand point (basing on past codices). I can say the same thing as well, and while I've never won a battle with my 3.5 Codex, I loved playing an army I can truely call Iron Warriors or World Eaters. And on the Subject of Mobility again, you seem to think Mobility is getting from Point A to Point B, with reliablity and what has access to that mobility taken completely out of the equation. Berserkers would be devastating if you could drop them like birdcrap in the enemy's rear lines, same goes for Plague marines. Noise Marines would actually be useful if you could do this, since you can plop a champion with Doom Siren and a squad armed with a Blastmaster. This puts out insane devastation on whatever poor souls are caught in it. Surviving to the next turn, they charge in and beat the crap out of whatever they were aiming at due to their higher than average Initiative. Same goes for the Thousand Sons. Pop them in a Pod, drop them behind an enemy command squad, Inferno Bolt the hell out of them, and then wack them with the Force Weapon during the next turn. Drop Pods would let the TS deprive their target of a cover save through careful deployment, and without 2 CCWs, they dont mind not being able to charge on their initial turn. That's Mobility.

Obsidian Raven wrote:ok, i have a question for those here.

I just recently got into warhammer, like september kind of recently.

I have a small chaos army sitting mostly unassembled and unpainted at the moment (3 7 man plague marine squads, a predator, a biker, a lord and some OOP possessed) (going is slow, i have 3 plagues being painted now, a half assembled bike and have two plagues assembled and painted)

Now, my question is this : have i picked the wrong army? (i picked for fluff reasons) i dont plan to play competetively at all, mostly casual.

Reading the thread, ive aparently been making the wrong purchases, so what will be the right purchases? what should i do next?

Reading this thread has made me think ive messed up, and should just change and go with orks instead, which is my second choice.

No, I think you've got it right. 3 7-man plague marine squads is a pretty good idea no matter what CSM army you play. Predators are....less than satisfactory, but you can build it as a hybrid rhino/predator, so it can work

Nurgle has alot of fun toys. Nothing mroe annoying than a Havoc or Biker squad with T5/6 (respectively) bearing down on you. XD

And you may want to build that lord up as a Sorceror. Lash Sorcerors are very powerful especially combined with weapons that ignore armor and/or pull them towards your troops for a charge with the Possessed or Rapid Fire by the Plaguies.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:And Ailaros, AF has player skills due to first hand experience, negated the luck factor entirely because he has been playing them for a good sum of time, and has whatever subjective observational data you have as well because he can observe the codex from both your stand point, a player stand point, and from a historical stand point (basing on past codices).

And I've been playing Chaos off and on (mostly on) since the 3.5 codex came out (a couple of games with the 3.0). And I've used them to go to the finals in both Ard Boyz I've played in (this year and last). Last year I didn't lose a game, and wound in 9th out of 63 or so players due to a Draw against Orks. This year the only army which beat me in the finals was Clark's CSM.

AF is no fool, but he often and substantially overstates his case. Chaos does not "suck", and SW are not somehow vastly more mobile because they have a single (albeit excellent) cavalry unit. All the MEQ codices are principally reliant on Rhinos to move guys around in significant numbers. Other 'dexes have other mobility tools, but Chaos has Outflanking, Deep Striking (and Icons to make that better while simultaneously buffing squads), and Summoning to add to its mobility.