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I would be horrified to see what would happen if you got your hands on a DKoK powerblob army Ailaros. Just saying.

jp400 wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:

jp400 wrote:

Sorry, but I still fail to see the scary in this.

Ok, on the charge they will be hitting you with 36, WS4, S6, PW attacks, and 108 regular attacks. Even if that doesn't wipe you out, you have 54 bodies to go through before you even begin to damage the Guardsmen punching you with their powerfists. Marines will crumple under the sheer weight of attacks, Eldar won't be able to stand up against the masses of bodies. The only things that could out attrition them would be a swarm of Guants or Orks, and even then they'll be tied up for practically the rest of the game as they bash away at each other.

The Guardsmen will also hardly ever runaway thanks to re-rollable Leadership 9. Good luck breaking the deadlock.

See, the thing is.. that entire squad isn't going to reach my lines untouched. And that is the key right there to defeating the blob.

Given the other things that DKoK have, this isn't necessarily the case...

Besides, it's only 800 points, still plenty of points to spend on providing IG shooty to enhance its strength.

Plus, the only way to make sure they don't hit your stuff is to play a gunline, which is TERRIBLY vulnerable to powerfists when they DO make it in. Plus, good luck winning objectives games.

As melissa said, you can do both power blobs AND lots of shooty stuff. Guard are cheap that way. To assume that your gunline is going to get several turns of shooting at blobsmen unmolested is a fantasy.

Ailaros wrote:Plus, the only way to make sure they don't hit your stuff is to play a gunline, which is TERRIBLY vulnerable to powerfists when they DO make it in. Plus, good luck winning objectives games.

As melissa said, you can do both power blobs AND lots of shooty stuff. Guard are cheap that way. To assume that your gunline is going to get several turns of shooting at blobsmen unmolested is a fantasy.

Never said several turns. I just need one or two to make them manageable.

And all they need are one or two turns to reduce your ability to make them managable with proper heavy support...

Like I said, I think the problem we are having here is a pure and simple case of YMMV.

I, personally have never had a problem with managing blob squads around here. Not saying they are not tough, just I don't find them "scary" is all.

Ailaros wrote:Actually, my idea for guard medics was sort of like Fabius Bile.

A medic costs 40 points, and is taken from fake HQ slots like a priest. At the beginning of the game, you must assign him to a squad (the medic is not an independent character).

A medic gives the squad to which he is assigned FNP (so long as the medic is alive) for +2 points per model in the squad.

That way, you could give a 50-man blob FNP, but the medic would cost you 140 points: the price of 30 more dudes.

Interesting concept but the purchase method is strange. You don't know how much the medic costs until you decide which unit to put him in at the beginning of the game.

You really think you'd get 60 guys in b2b or within 2"? I have a hard enough time with 20 guys.

Kevin949 wrote:You really think you'd get 60 guys in b2b or within 2"? I have a hard enough time with 20 guys.

You don't need 60 guys in b2b or withing 2", you only need 12. The other guys are there to be ablative wounds, and maybe get a lucky bayonet hit or something.

Sure, but then you're missing out on a ton of other attacks, which was part of (I believe) your statement in the previous page.

ChrisWWII wrote:

jp400 wrote:

Sorry, but I still fail to see the scary in this.

Ok, on the charge they will be hitting you with 36, WS4, S6, PW attacks, and 108 regular attacks. Even if that doesn't wipe you out, you have 54 bodies to go through before you even begin to damage the Guardsmen punching you with their powerfists. Marines will crumple under the sheer weight of attacks, Eldar won't be able to stand up against the masses of bodies. The only things that could out attrition them would be a swarm of Guants or Orks, and even then they'll be tied up for practically the rest of the game as they bash away at each other.

The Guardsmen will also hardly ever runaway thanks to re-rollable Leadership 9. Good luck breaking the deadlock.

Well..... i have a newfound healthy respect for the Imperial Gaurd

Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

Riddick40k wrote:Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

...At HOW many points exactly? I mean a powerblob is clocking around 200 points for most normal ones, 6 DC dreadnoughts are an entire overkill of points. Sure they'll win combat. By spending around 4 times the points to deal with the threat in the first place!


And in the 'fixing a crappy squad' line-

Chaos Daemons- Furies.

Allow them to assault the turn they deep strike! This would give people incentive to actually buy/convert the nasty models, and its not horrificly unbalanced. If a veteran space marine in a jump pack can do it, why can't spiteful daemons consumed with hatred? Daemons seriously need a squad to overcome this handicap, and furies can't do enough damage on the charge to make this unfair, and it'll hold up shooting squads letting pressure off the rest of the army.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

...At HOW many points exactly? I mean a powerblob is clocking around 200 points for most normal ones, 6 DC dreadnoughts are an entire overkill of points. Sure they'll win combat. By spending around 4 times the points to deal with the threat in the first place!

6 DC dreadnoughts would cost 850 points (125 apiece) if it were possible to bring that many. The maximum it's possible to bring in a regular game is 5 with a 25-man death company which would itself cost 500 points or more. Few players are crazy enough to bring an army like that because of the massive points sink and lack of scoring units. Having Rage everywhere and not much in the way of mobility would tend to constrain the player's tactical choices as well. But we digress.


Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

Black Templars

Marshall: Bring him up to 5th ed standards (+1WS, actually having BP/CCW and grenades free so I don't ahve to pay 1-3 pts for them and screw up my list)

Emperor's Champion: +1WS +1A +1W seriously, this guy is outshone by a mere space marine captain.

Sword Brethren: Increase their cost to 20pts, but give them two attacks base , with options for more special weapons. And obviously, give them grenades. Right now they're a bit of a joke next to Sanguinary Guard, Wolf Guard, Death Company and Vanguard Vets who are all in the same "club".

Codex wide: Grenades, everyone else has them...

Rhino: Free smoke launchers, again, just bring them up to 5th ed standards.

Exergy wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:Aren't Void Lances Str9? What you're saying is that you want a S9 Lance that is also AP1? You already have a better chance of breaking open AV13+ than a lascannon, why do you need the extra damage result if you're never rolling more than at least a 4 to penetrate?

yes I want Str9 AP1
the void raven costs 145 point and has 2 VLs.
a ravager costs 105 points and has 3 DLs.
The ravager will get more glances and more pens against all forms of armor vunerable to the "lance rule". 2 void lances are better than 3 dark lances against monoliths and a blessed hull land raiders. That is it. Is that worth 40 extra points when its far worse against everything else?

My Chaos Havocs with 2 lascannons cost 145pts, are you going to give them S9 AP1 too?

It seems you are annoyed about the cost, so instead of trying to justify the cost by upgrading, why not simply lower the cost? Two S9 AP1 Lance weapons are not worth 145pts

Also, a ravager does not get more pens against all forms of armour (for the purposes of ease of calculation, 16.66666 recurring has been rounded to 16.7 and 66.66666 recurring has been rounded to 66.7):

AV10:
2 Void Lances>1.334 Hits>1.111222% chance of penetrating
3 Dark Lances>2.001 Hits>1.334667% chance of penetrating

AV11:
2 Void Lances>1.334 Hit>0.889778% chance of penetrating
3 Dark Lances>2.001 Hits>1.0005% chance of penetrating

AV12:
2 Void Lances>1.334 Hit>0.667% chance of penetrating
3 Dark Lances>2.001 Hits>0.666333% chance of penetrating

As you can see, the dark lances are better against AV10 and 11 only, void lances are better against AV12, which is the highest you will see unless you come accross any lance resistant vehicles; DLs are best against lance resistant vehicles under AV12, VLs are best against AV12+

EDIT: Just checked and they are in fact BS4, so I will recalculate.
EDIT 2: Reculculated using BS4 and the result still stands.

BA
Let BA captain take Artificer Armor+ other thing that SM captain somehow get(many artificer my arse), change relic blade to somekind of super Glaive though, so at least captain would be useful

Give Sang Guard Invul (5+?)
Meph EW, the guy returned from death once, give him EW or at least Invul , actually Invul is better than EW, give him like 4+ invul

Tau
Shash'O'Ralai
let him switch drone please, i don't like my XV9 commander on t3

Invul(5+) to Crisis commander
More weapon option, useful ones

Tyranid
Lower Hive tyrant price and please give him and his bro Swarmlord 5+ invul or something
enhanced senses, I want my shooty nids
DoM,EW please
Lower point cost of Tyrannofex, otherwise rupture cannon standard

Blood Angels in general, and Meph in particular DEFINITELY do not need anything more. The only thing that PARTIALLY balanced Meph is that he has no invul save.

How about the fact that He cannot join a squad to use as extra lives

BA captain had no artificier armor, and Sanguinary guard had armor save which mean once they meet power weapon they die horribly, i don't mind increase in point cost

He doesn't need the ablative wounds. Blood Angels are already one of the strongest codexes out there, they don't need anymore buffing.

Agreed..

Lictors - can move, shoot, and assault as normal the turn they arrive. Pheromone Trail to something useful.

Make Mephiston S/T/I 5, remove fleet, IC

Replace Carnifex entry with the 4th edition version

CSM daemons can buy marks, at the very least

... Cult Terminators?

And I'm pretty sure that you can't use Slick Loader with a Vanquisher; at least as of the latest update I can find.

Raxmei wrote:

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

...At HOW many points exactly? I mean a powerblob is clocking around 200 points for most normal ones, 6 DC dreadnoughts are an entire overkill of points. Sure they'll win combat. By spending around 4 times the points to deal with the threat in the first place!

6 DC dreadnoughts would cost 850 points (125 apiece) if it were possible to bring that many. The maximum it's possible to bring in a regular game is 5 with a 25-man death company which would itself cost 500 points or more. Few players are crazy enough to bring an army like that because of the massive points sink and lack of scoring units. Having Rage everywhere and not much in the way of mobility would tend to constrain the player's tactical choices as well. But we digress.


Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

Wow who taught you math? You get 1 Death Company Dread for every 5 death company models and you can have 30 death company usually so that means you can have 6 dreads. 30/5=6 and even then if you take astroth you can have even more

Lonecoon wrote:Storm troopers: Reduce the cost to 15 points per model
Why: Vets cost 7 points a model. Add 3 points for deep strike, 2 for carapace armor, 2 for Hotshot lasgun, and 1 for special ability. Instead of 85 points for a base squad, you now spend 80, which makes them an easier sell.

Jyst saying, vets and storm troopers are NOT supposed to do the same thing. Storm troopers are perfectly fine as is, they just have a different role than veterans.


Anyhow: Grimaldus should get +1 wound and be Eternal Warrior, in addition to his current rules. Oh, and reduce his cost a tad and remove the cenobytes, making them an upgrade option, in case you don't feel like wasting 3 spots in a transport.

Helbrect probably needs a bit of an overhaul.

Increase his weapon skill, give him orbital bombardment, make his sword a +D3 attacks on the charge relic blade.

As far as special rules go, keep the super command squad, and rites of battle and give him a rule to represent his fleet command abilities, like giving one unit deep strike or something. Similar to Creed's "tactical genius"

Obviously, cost would increase, probably to 200-225.

Riddick40k wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Guard Blob squads got nothing on 6 Death Company Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons.

That's 36 S7 Ws5 Lightning Claw attacks that just keep killing until no puny guardsmen is left alive

...At HOW many points exactly? I mean a powerblob is clocking around 200 points for most normal ones, 6 DC dreadnoughts are an entire overkill of points. Sure they'll win combat. By spending around 4 times the points to deal with the threat in the first place!

6 DC dreadnoughts would cost 850 points (125 apiece) if it were possible to bring that many. The maximum it's possible to bring in a regular game is 5 with a 25-man death company which would itself cost 500 points or more. Few players are crazy enough to bring an army like that because of the massive points sink and lack of scoring units. Having Rage everywhere and not much in the way of mobility would tend to constrain the player's tactical choices as well. But we digress.


Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

Wow who taught you math? You get 1 Death Company Dread for every 5 death company models and you can have 30 death company usually so that means you can have 6 dreads. 30/5=6 and even then if you take astroth you can have even more

Death Company and DC dreads take up troops choices. If you brought 6 DC dreads you'd exceed the limit of 6 troops choices.

Raxmei wrote:Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

... You need perfect penetration to glance the lightest vehicles. I don't think this helps anything. The Punisher is just not meant to shoot vehicles. It's awesome against most every infantry foe, I've killed everything from Termagaunts to Chaos Terminators with it, but it can't do crap to anything on wheels. Or hovering. Whatever.

Raynor933 wrote:

Raxmei wrote:Leman Russ Punisher: Ap6. The gun's basically a gigantic heavy stubber so it might as well have comparable ap. What this effectively does is give it a boost for shooting light vehicles.

... You need perfect penetration to glance the lightest vehicles. I don't think this helps anything. The Punisher is just not meant to shoot vehicles. It's awesome against most every infantry foe, I've killed everything from Termagaunts to Chaos Terminators with it, but it can't do crap to anything on wheels. Or hovering. Whatever.

S5 can penetrate av10 and glance 11, and you get 20 tries. Losing Ap- would enable them to immobilize rhinos. It'd make more difference than you might think, especially if Pask is in command.

20 Shots from S5 punisher against:

AV10:
20 Shots>10 Hits>1.67 glancing hits/1.67 penetrating hits.

AV11:
20 Shots>10 Hits>1.67 glancing hits.

You're effectively looking at 1-2 successful glances/penetrates against AV10/11 per salvo (in theory), with updated AP6 allowing immobilisation, which seems pretty balanced on paper.

I'm a slow, for some reason the comment "basically a gigantic heavy stubber" stuck the thought in my head that the Punisher was S4. My bad. I still wouldn't be firing my Punisher at vehicles, but I guess the ability to immobilize or destroy light vehicles would be nice to have in a pinch.