Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In this thread, choose something you think is super crappy. What change could make it a competitive choice? Not broken. Competitive.

Tyranid Pyrovore:

Make him explode whenever he is killed. However, if he is insta-killed in combat, his explosion has AP 2.

Old One Eye:

Give him a shooting weapon or reduce his points by 20 or so.

Parasite of Mortrex:

Give him T5 or make him immune to insta-kill.

Ork Deff Dread:

Give him an option of something twin-linked.

pariahs-give the necron special rule.

vanguard-5 point jump packs.

firewarriors-make them 8 points

ChocolateGork wrote:

firewarriors-make them 8 points

+1'000'000

Also -

Crisis Suits - BS4, change nothing else, just this. Elites?! Pfft.

Swooping Hawks to get a turbo-boost like bikes to drop their grenades like Dark Eldar Bladevanes on bikes or the Ork bombing guys.

Define "crappy"? I choose to read it as "Sub-Par", so here goes:



For Sisters of Battle:

Repentia: Drop armor save for an equivalent invulnerable save (they aren't wearing armor anyway), let them ride in transports. Still wouldn't make them very good, but at least it would mean that they would be usable.

Dominions: Give them Scouts, and apply Scouts to any transports they ride, and make their special weapons cost the same as everyone else's in the army. This would make their pricing actually make sense and gives them a purpose, as well as giving Sisters another deployment option.

Retributors: Give them an anti-tank weapon that has an effective range greater than twelve inches. There's very little reason to choose them over Exorcists right now outside of planetstrike or cities of death.

Celestians: Make Sarissas not suck (re-rolling all to-wound, or counting as two CCWs, or changing the bolter to an assault weapon), then give the mto the Celestian squad. Celestians are assault veterans with an assault based statline and assault based special rule, but without assault based equipment.

Seraphim: Reduce their cost so they don't cost more than an assault marine despite having far worse of a statline for an assault unit. Even equal costing would be better, as then it'd be justified as them sacrificing statline for twin linked shooting and their special hit and run.

Canonesses: Give them some starting equipment (BP+CCW frags kraks invuln save) and up their statline to WS5 I5. Sisters focus on skill rather than raw strength, so it makes a bit of sense. Give them access to better shooty equipment, such as master-crafted heavy weapons, to make use of their high BS. Increase their price to compensate to make Palatines worth taking.

Palatines: Give them some starting equipment (BP+CCW+Frags), give them a second faith point like Canonesses. Nobody uses them except for fluff reasons, and even then rarely does that happen. Palatines suck compared to Canonesses, as for ten points more you get a far better statline and more faith points.

Battle Sister Squad: Give them frags and bolt pistols, to bring them in line with other Imperial armies, all of which have frags at least and most of which have pistols as well. this would make The Passion and Hand of the Emperor far more worth using, as it is right now they're not used very frequently compared to Spirit of the Martyr or Divine Guidance.

In general: Make using acts of faith an unmodified leadership check, remove Martyrdom to balance it out (as it is it's just abused with throwaway units to give more faith points anyway).



For Imperial Guard:

Conscripts: Give them a commissar. Just one though. The commissar makes the most sense in a conscript squad anyway... why should they have to use a lord commissar to do it?

Primaris Psyker: Give them more psychic powers and let them choose two. They're the most varied and powerful psykers the Imperium has at their disposal, they don't need to suck like they do right now. A morale boosting ability, an anti-tank ability, a melee ability, a protective ability, an enhancing ability, etc would all be useful.

Leman Russ Punisher: Reduce cost to what the Leman Russ Battle Tank is. It'd still be a bit underperforming but at least it would then have a niche role without being extravagantly expensive.

Tau:

Ethereals - Taking one allows you to upgrade Fire Warriors to Honour Guard for 2pts per model. Honour Guard get +1 to their Ballistic Skill and Leadership and are equipped with pulse rifles, photon grenades and emp grenades as standard, but otherwise share the same upgrades as regular Fire Warriors.

Crisis Bodyguards - BS4. May be taken by either a Crisis Commander or an Ethereal. Crisis Bodyguards with a Crisis Commander bestow the Hit and Run special rule onto the unit. Crisis Bodyguards joined to an Ethereal gain +1 leadership and bestow the Stubborn special rule onto the unit.

Crisis Bodyguards also have The Ultimate Sacrifice special rule. Instead of the regular way of resolving hits and wounds, a unit with at least 1 Crisis Bodyguard must resolve the bodyguard's hits and wounds first. If an attack would either remove the last wound of, kill outright or remove from play a Tau Commander or Ethereal with bodyguards, you may instead opt to have the bodyguard sacrifice himself to save them by taking the wound for them. This wound cannot be saved by any means.

Tau Commander Upgrades:
Tau Commander Shas'El/Shas'O- 30pts - Has Fire Warrior Armour, Photon/EMP grenades and a pulse rifle as standard - Same statlines as current - May choose any upgrade from the infantry wargear list.
Fused Plates - An experimental version of the current Fire Warrior armour - Grants a 3+ armour save - 10pts
Relentless Strategm - Any Fire Warrior unit the Tau Commander joins gains the Relentless special rule until the commander leaves the unit or is killed.

Crisis Battlesuit - 20pts - Must take at least 3 weapons systems, support systems or any combination of the two.
Tank Hunter Stratagem - Any unit Crisis Battlesuit or Broadside Battlesuit unit the Tau Commander joins gains the Tank Hunters special rule until the commander leaves the unit or is killed.

Stealth Battlesuit - 30pts - Tau commander is equipped an XV22 Stealth Battlesuit and is equipped with two burst cannons as standard. May take a battlesuit support system. May replace one or both brust cannons with the following (use the second value if replacing both burst cannons with the same weapon:
Flamer - 3/6pts
Heavy Flamer - 6/12pts
Fusion Blaster - 8/16pts
Stealth Stratagem - Any Stealth Battlesuit unit the Tau commander joins gains the Stealth special rule until the commander leaves the unit or is killed.

XV88 Broadside Battlesuit - The commander is equipped with an XV88 Broadside battlesuit and has a smart missile system as standard. Must choose one battlesuit support system. Must choose a primary weapon from one of the following:
Twin-Linked Ion Blasters - 60" - S6 - AP4 - Heavy 3
Twin-Linked Plasma Cannons - 48" - S6 - AP3 - Blast
Twin-Linked Fusion Destroyers - As multi-meltas
Twin-Linked Railguns - As current.
May choose to replace smart missile system with one of the following:
Twin-Linked Burst Repeaters - 18" - S5 - AP5 - Heavy 6
Twin-Linked Missile Pods - As current.
Twin-Linked Plasma Rifles - As current.
Twin-Linked Rail Rifles - As current.
Tank Hunter Stratagem - See Crisis Commander entry.


Yeah, got a tiny bit carried away there xD

Give beasts of Nurgle 3/4 wounds, increase the price appropriately.

Give some form of Daemon (Daemonettes, seekers, fiends, flesh hounds...ANYTHING) the ability to assault after deep striking. If some marines in jet packs can do it, why can't my incredibly old and 'master of battles' Blood Thirster and Keeper of Secrets just pop up and assault other than stare at every large caliber weapon on the table?!

bucheonman wrote:
Parasite of Mortrex:

Give him T5 or make him immune to insta-kill.

Parasite needs his spawned units not to count for KP more, he's got IC to deflect those nasty shots too.

Now Doom *really* needs this, 10 wounds but dies from a single krak missile? bugger that.

Space Marine Chapter Master- boost a stat by 1 (maybe S or T... hey if Mephsiton can be S and T 6 my chapter master should be able to have at least one or both at 5) and at least make him more usefull then a captain.... add a few diferent rules to kit him to diferent army styles

Example 1 making devistators more usefull (give them relentless maybe) or first rank fire secound rank fire (or whatever the IG rule is called) and let them have at least 1 more heavy weapons

Example 2 give your entire army counter attack......

I dont know jsut something that wont make me just say "meh... the captain does the job better"

Vindicator- give it a rule so it can auto repair the main turret (maybe there is a teachmarine onboard or something, fixed on a 5+) and make it an upgrade option for say +15 points

Tactical Terminators- they should get something that will make them as usefull as SS/TH termies.... maybe let them have 4 heavy weapons per squad and let them have plasma cannons (they ahve heavy flamers, cyclone misiles, multi meltas and assault cannons so why not spread the love of plasma around) make the cyclone misile launcher a heavy 2

Tazz Azrael wrote:Tactical Terminators- they should get something that will make them as usefull as SS/TH termies.... maybe let them have 4 heavy weapons per squad and let them have plasma cannons (they ahve heavy flamers, cyclone misiles, multi meltas and assault cannons so why not spread the love of plasma around) make the cyclone misile launcher a heavy 2

Plasma Cannons would be cool, but the rest is a little screwed up.


Tactical Terminators can NOT take Multi-meltas and Clyclone Missile launchers ARE Heavy 2.

Mandrakes.

Give them rending as standard.

Bam.

Flash gitz: Let them take a single weapon upgrade for free, maybe let them take special weapons to put them more in line with devastators/long fangs.

Space Marine Honor Guard: +1 WS, +1 I, points stay same.

Vect's Pimpmobile: let it take vehicle upgrades, reduce cost to 150, and give it aerial assault.

Kabalite Warriors: Let them take one special weapon per 5 models instead of 1 special weapon period.

Cronos+Talos: give them a special rule that lets them Run and Shoot in the same turn(but not assault)

Eldar Guardians: Reduce cost to 7pts and reduce their warlock to 20points

Storm Guardians: Give Plasma Grenades, Reduce cost to 7pts, and reduce their warlock to 20points

Grotesques: Reduce cost to 27points

Void Raven: Make Void lances and Void mines AP 1

SW:

Blood claws, reduce by about 3 or 4 pts
reduce BS to 1 or 2.

makes sense fluff wise,

Flashgits: Snazzguns are twin-linked. Badrukk has a power choppa.

Lord Commissar: Not treated as an Independent Character in Close Combat.

Mega Armored Nobs: Bosspole, +5 points.

Meganobs: Cybork bodies, bosspole.

All non-special caracter IC's get the relentless special rule and:
ALL commanders (That means Space marine captains, Autarchs, Tau commanders, Archons, Chaos lords, and so on) get more options, shooty weapons and rules to make it work, I want something that might look like this example:

Space marine captain, x points
Powerfist, x points
Teleport homer, x points
Lascannon, x points

Or:

Archon, x points
Agoniser, x points
Shadow field, x points
Haywire blaster, x points

Or:
Chaos lord, x points
Terminator armor, x points
Daemon weapon of khorne, x points
Mark of Khorne, x points
Reaper autocannon, x points

A captain with a lascannon you ask? Doesnt make sense? Useless? Hes the "elite warrior of doom" who commands the army! Why would he be banned from the "long ranged" section of the armory?! And if anyone should have relentless then its the most elite warrior around.

The Autarch options section should be a guiding light for commander-type HQ models everywhere!

(naturally some commanders dont have what it takes to command AND aim a complex ranged device at the same time, i wouldnt give a Chaplain or a Librarian a lascannon or assult cannon, and an Imperial officer is too busy giving commands to have the time to aim proper)

This would be one big fun reason to make even cooler, more awesome commanders than ever before, and it makes the captain option in your marine codex viable again.

Decapitator, Dark Eldar: For the Love of God, let him ASSAULT the turn he arrives!!!!!!

Vanguard Vets: Come with Jump Packs as standard, included in current price.

Venerable Dreadnought: go back to original rule that was an upgrade for a regular Dreadnought. add to Ironclad options.

Pedro Kantor: change "Hold the Line" to read that Sternguard may be taken as Troops.

MOTF: give him an Invuln and another wound for Emperor's sake.

Give Honour Guard an invulerable save, either 4+ or 5+
Make Chaplains, MOTF, and Librarians both Initiative and BS 5
Make Vanguard come standard with Jump Packs, Make devistator Lascannons cheaper, Give devistators Heavy Flamer option, Devistor Sergeant gets Bolter Drill, Give Marine sergents Lightning Claws, Tactical Squads get Heavy Flamer option, Combat Squads can be deployed at seperate times

Tactical Squads: heavy flamer as a heavy weapon option. 10 points perhaps.

MegaNobz - give them similar options to regular nobz.

Looted wagon - Give it a more useful AV value

Deff dread - give it weapon options which make it worth taking over a mob of kanz

Chaos Daemons:

1. Soul Grinder, add new Rule: Warp-Forged. "The Soul Grinder is part daemon, part machine, and more resilient than Realspace vehicles as a result. When the Soul Grinder suffers damage from ranged weapons, roll two dice on the damage table and apply the lowest."

[Rationale: The Soul Grinder is the only vehicle in the codex, and suffers hugely as all anti-tank weapons are turned on it. As such, they never survive long. This should hopefully add some extra defence, and encourage enemies to attack it in close combat].

2. Screamers, addition to rule: Warp Jaws. "Additionally, Screamers with Warp Jaws hit vehicles at worst on a 4+."

[Rationale: Daemons are very weak against AV14, and also have a weak fast attack section of their codex. Hopefully this will encourage more use of Screamers to help with high-AV tanks.]

3. Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, Points change and upgrade change. Cost reduced to 16 points. Changeling increased to 15 points. Change bolt upgrade to: "Gift one model with Bolt of Tzeentch: +10 points. If the squad numbers 10 or more, you may gift a second model with Bolt of Tzeentch: +15 points".

[Rationale: Changeling was too much of a no-brainer choice. Increased cost to dissuade this. Daemons rely too heavily on Plaguebearers to hold objectives. Hopefully the points reduction and ability to take two bolts in large squads will encourage the use of large Horror squads to sit on objectives and take out mech instead of using minimum squads of Plaguebearers as objective takers and nothing else.

4. Daemonic Assault, remove the third and fourth paragraphs detailing the division of the army into two groups. Replace with: "At the beginning of your first turn, divide the army into two groups that must include, as much as possible, the same number of units. Declare one of these groups as the group to arrive on the first turn. You must then subject yourself to the will of the Gods; roll a D6. On a 3-6 the chosen group arrives on the first turn. On a 1-2 the other group arrives on the first turn OR the chosen group arrives, but units in reserve suffer a -1 reserve modifier on the second game turn (i.e. arrive on a 5+ instead of a 4+). You may chose which penalty to take.

The units in the group to arrive on the first turn arrive on the first turn automatically. The remaining units are held in reserve, and rolled for normally (unless subject to the penalty detailed above). All units enter play via Deep Strike."

[Rationale: This change essentially gives a get-out clause to rolling the wrong group at the start of the game. For many Daemon Builds, getting the wrong group is essentially game over on turn one. This allows for the chosen group to always arrive first, but in exchange for a penalty to the important turn-2 wave.]

5. Beasts of Nurgle, points change, rule change. Reduce points to 30. Add Noxious Touch. In Random Poisoned Attacks, change the reference from 4+ to 2+. Remove Slow and Purposeful. Add: "Enthusiasm: A Beast of Nurgle's willingness to 'play' waxes and wanes with its discovery of new 'friends'. Beasts of Nurgle have three levels of excitement: Bored, Excited and Gleeful, represented as 0, 1 or 2 Excitement Counters. Beasts of Nurgle begin the game Bored. Bored Beasts (0 Tokens) move as infantry, but are slow and purposeful. Excited Beasts (1 Token) move as infantry. Gleeful Beasts (2 Tokens) move as infantry and are Fleet. A unit of Beasts gains an Excitement token (to a maximum of 2) if it takes part in a combat during the Daemon player's turn. A unit of Beasts loses an Excitement token (to a minimum of 0) if it does not take part in a combat during the Daemon player's turn. All Beasts of Nurgle cannot Sweeping Advance (They are too busy playing with the floppy corpses of their new found 'friends'.".

[Rationale: The elites section of the Chaos Daemon codex is perhaps the most powerful, with both Bloodcrushers and Fiends in this slot. At their old price of 35 points, they are just 5 points less than Blood Crushers, and worse in most ways. The additions above makes them closer in power to Fiends and Bloodcrushers such that they might be considered, and fill a niche for killing high-toughness enemies.]

Tyranid Prime - Wings as an option and can be attached to a unit in myceitc spore.

Also, give Tyranids the same "drop pod assault" rules as SM.

For IG:

SWS: Ability to take a Chimera
Why: Everyone else can take one. It would improve survivability, and the ability to deliver payload to the target.

Storm troopers: Reduce the cost to 15 points per model
Why: Vets cost 7 points a model. Add 3 points for deep strike, 2 for carapace armor, 2 for Hotshot lasgun, and 1 for special ability. Instead of 85 points for a base squad, you now spend 80, which makes them an easier sell.

Conscripts: Reduce points to 3 per model, give the option to take a commissar.
Why: Why would you use an Independent HQ slot to keep a squad in place? Not only that, fluff wise it makes sense to keep someone there to have the rabble stay put. And a loss of 1 WS and 1 BS is worth more than 1 point. Vets, who are 7 points a model, have BS 4, which means every WS/BS upgrade costs 2 points. If you're using that formula, then conscripts should be 2 points per model, but 3 is way more reasonable.

Chenkov: Increase point by 50, give platoon that Chenkov leads "Send in the next wave" for free. Every other platoon can buy it for 75 points.
Why: "Send in the Next Wave" is a gigantic point sink. Practically no one uses conscript for this reason, and Chenkov never gets put into the field. By giving SITNW a boost, there's incentive to take them and Chenkov.

Knight Commander Pask: Have BS 4 count for the whole squad. For 50 points, it damn well better.

Penal Legion Squad: Let the player choose the special ability.
Why: What other squad in the entire game has a random ability? It's easier to build a list if you know what you're taking before the dice start rolling.

Lonecoon wrote:For IG:

SWS: Ability to take a Chimera
Why: Everyone else can take one. It would improve survivability, and the ability to deliver payload to the target.

OR allow them to be bought as a "unit" then divided up and attached to infantry squads like advisers to bolster line units combat power.

Storm troopers: Reduce the cost to 15 points per model
Why: Vets cost 7 points a model. Add 3 points for deep strike, 2 for carapace armor, 2 for Hotshot lasgun, and 1 for special ability. Instead of 85 points for a base squad, you now spend 80, which makes them an easier sell.

Reduce to 10 points a model and keep as is. Even at 15 points that's space marine territory. Saving 5 points total per squad will not make these guys any more attractive.

Conscripts: Reduce points to 3 per model, give the option to take a commissar.
Why: Why would you use an Independent HQ slot to keep a squad in place? Not only that, fluff wise it makes sense to keep someone there to have the rabble stay put. And a loss of 1 WS and 1 BS is worth more than 1 point. Vets, who are 7 points a model, have BS 4, which means every WS/BS upgrade costs 2 points. If you're using that formula, then conscripts should be 2 points per model, but 3 is way more reasonable.

Agree.

Chenkov: Increase point by 50, give platoon that Chenkov leads "Send in the next wave" for free. Every other platoon can buy it for 75 points.
Why: "Send in the Next Wave" is a gigantic point sink. Practically no one uses conscript for this reason, and Chenkov never gets put into the field. By giving SITNW a boost, there's incentive to take them and Chenkov.

Agree

Knight Commander Pask: Have BS 4 count for the whole squad. For 50 points, it damn well better.

Agree. Espically with how ever cost some of the IG tanks are

Penal Legion Squad: Let the player choose the special ability.
Why: What other squad in the entire game has a random ability? It's easier to build a list if you know what you're taking before the dice start rolling.

Agree. Let the player pay X points for each ability, instead of this random BS.

Daemons -

Give greater Daemons an ability so that they can only be wounded by Poison Weapons on a 6. The amount of Poison in the game makes them almost worthless to take. They should all also have 5 wounds each with the Nurgle one at 6

The Plaguefather - Change Nurgling Infestation to D3 models instead of 1 on a 4+
BloodThirster - Gains Preferred Enemy Special Rule

Beasts of Nurgle - Allow one model to take the Aura of Decay upgrade.
Allow entire unit to take Cloud of Flies upgrade for an small increase in points per model.

Fast Attack Slots - Allow all Daemons in the Fast Attack Category to Assault after Deepstrike. This will allow the Daemon Player to tie up units and possibly take out a few tanks for his other units and will help prevent the Daemon player from eating so much firepower. Seekers would need a point increase to 18-20 and Furies should be decreased to 12

Screamers - Add a Special rule that Screamers may choose to attack a single vehicle (1 die per model on side armor) that they move/turbo over during their movement. If they do this they cannot assault in the same turn. Basically like the bombing runs the Dark Eldar are capable of. Give them BS 3 for this power

Daemon Princes -
Mark of Khorne - 20pts Grants Preferred Enemy in addition to its +1 Attack
Mark of Slannesh - 25pts Grants Fleet in addition to its +1 Initiative

A few small changes and a few major ones but I would be more than happy to play against a codex changed to this and I think it would be much more competitive.

I would post stuff on Necrons, but I would need several pages of text and no one cares anymore

Pyrovore: Give them ability to shoot multimeltas.

Harpy: Make it T6 (not that it is currently horribad, just meh).

Deffdreads: Give them fleet or 12'' charge.

Looted Wagon: It doesn't need to be a transport, Battlewagon is there already. Give it Predators armor and BS 3 twinlinked guns.

Zzap Gun: Make it so that you roll the strength before hitting and 11 and 12 are autohits, AP 1 or allow another shot.

Mandrakes: Give the Nightfiend an option to buy a Pain Token, Rending for the squad and other goodies.

Trying to fix all the crappy units, especially from the older codices that suffer from strange design decisions along with edition mismatch would take all day.

Penal Legion Squad: Let the player choose the special ability.
Why: What other squad in the entire game has a random ability? It's easier to build a list if you know what you're taking before the dice start rolling.

Well, there's the Possessed, of course, and they would really need that more than penal legion considering each squads cost.

Also give both honor guard and Company Command squads the ability to take Jump Packs