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wow...you guys are still complaining about the freaken Tau?

I mean I like them too but lets face it people. They are finished when the last big push comes. They have a chance to defend themselves. There could be a chance for a Eldar,Emperium and Tau allience to stave back the forces of chaos, Push back the GOD WAAAGH by whatever Warboss is possible to unit them all but here is how I see it.


Orks: If it is even possible at all for all them to unit..which its not but a strange thing could happen.

Orks power could only be possibly stopped by nothing less than the three great "good powers" uniting until the war is over.'


Tyranids: would be too numerous but stopping them would be far easier than the Orks

Necrons: are the most powerful of ALL of the races. Lets face it. If it were not for those special beings created by the old ones the enslavers. The Necrons and their gods would had taken everything and Warhammer 40k would be about you Playing a Necron Army against some other race from another Galaxy and One Person plays the OP Necrons while the other Plays the other guys desperatly fighting to keep alive and failing.

They took down Most or possibly all of the "gods" that created almost all the races in the galaxy. Orks exist because of them, Humans, Maybe tau and others.
Necrons Chaos and Orks are gonna be what either almost wipes out all life in the Galaxy or Ends the game than fights it out. But most likely it will come down to Necrons And Chaos after the Orks Finnaly give way and the Tyranids have been wiped out.

Chaos: Same as I said above. A Possible allience between the chaos gods...maybe? If that happens than Humanity,Eldar and Tau really WILL have to forget their differences for a while and fight with each other to keep alive.

Ok, I can give you the fact that if you see Korne followers, that they're going to run at you trying to hack your head off.

If you see a Nurgle follower he's got the plague.

If you see a Slaanesh follower he's... let's just leave it at a Slaanesh follower.

So in a way, they can be predictable. And as mortal beings, Chaos worshipers can be predictable also.

However Chaos cannot ever be predicted. It is the very soul of Chaos that brings it's name. Even followers can be entirely unpredictable.

Let's take a look at Slaanesh. So you've been captured by a Saaneshi follower. YAY FOR YOU! He takes you back to his place, pulls out some drinks and tells you some pretty awesome jokes. Finally he asks you if you're ready to have a good time? This is what you've been waiting for. So then he says that you need to lay down. You listen because you know what's going to happen. Slaanesh is fun! So then he pulls out the tongs and a pencil... uh... wait what? Then he OH BY THE EMPEROR!!!!! And then you understand what Slaanesh is all about!

... which is predictable for Slaanesh. Most people do not understand Chaos that well, but those that do-- the members of the Inquisition, most notably-- can predict fairly accurately what various Chaos Cults are doing, where they are, etc.

The warp (Empyrean, if you will) and the forces of chaos are not the same thing. The warp is truly random, and only a gifted Navis Nobilitae with the assistance of the Astronomican is able to truly travel it safely, but Chaos? It can be predicted down to science.

/facepalm

Negative. Because you don't know what is behind those bleeps. It may just be him writing a poem.

Sothas wrote:/facepalm

Negative. Because you don't know what is behind those bleeps. It may just be him writing a poem.

And?

I'm not Inquisition. I haven't spent centuries understanding and hunting down the cults of Chaos and honing it to a science. I'm only saying that it is done, and that the main reason it seems unpredictable is because most people don't understand it.

Melissia wrote:

Sothas wrote:/facepalm

Negative. Because you don't know what is behind those bleeps. It may just be him writing a poem.

And?

I'm not Inquisition. I haven't spent centuries understanding and hunting down the cults of Chaos and honing it to a science. I'm only saying that it is done, and that the main reason it seems unpredictable is because most people don't understand it.

And the seed of doubt has been implanted. Welcome brother/sister. The warp welcomes you.

Yes, the seed of doubt is always sewn upon the agents of chaos, as it always is for those who feed upon doubt, desperation, and the rest of the lesser human emotions.

4M2A wrote:

He relies upon active worship, as they all do, for his power to grow. It's a mindset that has to be reached, not a simple action.

Which is agression, something you usually find a lot of in war. This is why khorne is often domminating.

Chaos (gods and daemons rather than mortal worshippers) isn't after any solid item. They just want to generate as much emotion as possible. If they attack a planet it doesn't matter if they are pushed back because they still caused a huge amount of suffering. Chaos could be stopped at the cadian gate each time and the gods woudn't care as long as enough destruction was caused. Unlike other races they haven't lost anything as their troops with return. All it cost them is time which being immortal they have quite a lot of.

Gods gain power from worshippers, without worshippers the chaos gods will lose power. That was the Emperor's plan, he planned to suck them out of thier followers and thus making them very very weak and then one day they would be destroyed. The chaos gods need followers, everytime they lose a war, its a major set back
Chaos Has not won, every side is losing, EXCEPT the Tyranids, Orks, and the Necrons, These three races are actually the only one that is not losing any war, they get stronger everyday.

Chaos is not loosing, nor are they winning. However old fluff does talk about some Orks actually being dedicated to Korne, which means in a way they're winning. The very act of slaughter, which all of these races are good at, gives Korne strength. Is it as much as direct worship? No, of course not, but it is still power, and it will still cause Korne to grow.

And as for Melissia, it is obvious you do not know the inner workings of Chaos. The fact that you believe that your inquisition can predict the movements of Chaos is entertaining to me. I will give them the fact that they have a better idea about Chaos than any other mortal being attempting to combat them, but they still are flawed.

They can, and they do. It isn't a matter of what you believe, but what actually happens. Believe all you want, the fluff disagrees with you.

And yes, that khorne worshipping Ork fluff was old. VERY old. It is no longer canon-- Orks are effectively (not entirely, but in all but the most extreme situations) immune to the corruption of Chaos in the most recent fluff.

Yeah... stupid new fluff.

And they don't actually predict correctly all the time. They don't get every incursion. They can't stop Chaos, they can only combat it. The only being that can truely combat Chaos is the Emperor, and we all know what happend there. Go team!

The only race with true divination is Eldar, and even that can be wrong sometimes... even Ulthwe. (see DoW2)

Sothas wrote:And they don't actually predict correctly all the time.

That's because the Imperium is vast and there is much the Inquisition needs to track-- sometimes they miss an important clue, or perhaps they miss several more subtle clues simply due to the vast quantity of information they have to deal with-- the Imperium has millions, if not billions of worlds on which insurrectionists and cultists can hide. Even rooting out cultists that are KNOWN to be only on a single hive world is tedious enough work.

It's well known that the vastness of the Imperium is actually one of its biggest problems.

True, all very true. And it's predictable because once corruptions has seeded you can see signs of it. You can predict what the cult's following is, and with that tell what will most likely be happening. But this is not Chaos, these are worshipers. They are as flawed as any other mortal man. Chaos is chaotic. This is why it is called Chaos to begin with.

Also Chaos is not what people believe it to be, that is, it is not evil. So why fight it anyway? It's not bad, just chaotic.

Father Nurgle gives life and resurrection.
The Prince of Chaos shows us pleasure and happyness.
The Changer of Ways teaches us and gives us knowledge.
The Blood God... ok so Korne's technially evil, but what do you expect from a Blood God that sits on top a throne of skulls?

Sothas wrote:This is why it is called Chaos to begin with.

No, it's called Chaos because it sounds cool and forbidding and that's what GW's marketing/creative departments wanted out of the name.

Well with that logic the language of the Imperium is similar to latin because it's cool and it makes money, and Orks are there because they're cool and they make money. And people liked elves so they made Eldar cuz they make money.

It's called fluff. Chaos is chaotic.

Kanluwen wrote:The reason Nids "aren't really drawn to Tau" has nothing to do with "fish wasn't their thing".

It has everything to do with the direction the Hive Fleets are arriving from.

Hive Fleet Leviathan is arriving from beneath the Galactic Plane.
Behemoth was stopped before it could reach past Ultramar/Macragge( which would have brought it in contact with the Tau), etc, etc.

The only contact that the Tau have had with the Tyranids was Hive Fleet Gorgon, and they were getting stomped by it.
To quote the Tyranid codex:

page 19 wrote:Although Hive Fleet Gorgon wrought havoc across a sizeable swathe of the Tau Empire, the Imperium of Man considered it to have been a minor threat. The Tyranid forces encountered by the Cadian XVIIIth army on the surface of Kel'shan were but a tiny fragment of the Hive Fleet's former strength. Castellan Crask wasted no time in declaring the Tau to be weaklings for their apparent inability to scour such a minor Tyranid threat. This viewpoint, and the wilfully misinterpreted conclusions that fed it, was the chief precipating factor in the commencement of the Iron Hammer campaign, which soon escalated into the greatest confrontation yet seen between the Imperium of Man and the Tau Empire. But that is another story...

To put it simply: The near-extinction level event for the Tau was considered a joke by the Imperium.

Wow, context much?

The Tau wiped the bulk of the most hyper-adaptive Hive ever to enter the galaxy through a prolonged fight, the Cadians rolled in for the final battle, deemed the remaining Nids a joke without knowing at all what had just gone down and declared the Tau weaklings.

He then gave his superiors a false report about the Tau's military ability and drew the Imperium into a massive conflict just in time for the largest expansion in Tau history.

This Iron Campaign sounds like it is going to be fun.

What's better is that he didn't even know the full extent of the previous conflict before betraying the Tau. Ensuring that they will be expecting another invasion. Keep in mind the first Crusade "smashed" a bunch of isolated outposts in "glorious" conquest then stopped when faced with the might of the local Fire Caste in full force, on ONE planet.

Imagine what the combined Empire is going to do to a bunch of misinformed Imperials, when they roll with bad intel against an enemy that is expecting them. If you thought 1 sept world's forces did work on an entire "extermination" force, imagine what 17 are going to do. What's even worse is that the primary damage done to the Tau was colonial merchant damage with one sept world being invaded, and luckily, the mighty Cadians SAVED it! haha worst case scenario ever man, this will make Taros look like a joke.

Going to be a fun read for sure! Great way to start a new Tau dex!

Thank the Emperor that you have finally stop talking about that gay blue alien dudes...

As for Chaos, my opinion is that he is winning - but barely. AS negative feelings feed the Chaos gods, so does positive feelings starve them. And Humans are in most of the time happy creatures, they know that only think to do is to pay tax and nothing more. And they know that the Emperor's army's are watching over them so they are happy because they have protection, nutritions and a place to live. Chaos only launch Black Crusades to spread misery, anger and overall negative feelings just to feed the Chaos Gods.

In the end the Emperor's soul will enter Chaos realm and he will close the EoT before reincarnate on Earth. So Chaos is winning now but in the end it will be defeated - like all bad guys.

But Brother Coa, He didn't stop. He is still think that if Imperium actually wants to kill Tau, The Tau would win .

Retrias wrote:But Brother Coa, He didn't stop. He is still think that if Imperium actually wants to kill Tau, The Tau would win .

What? Has he read the other fluff?
Moran, there are somethings the tau can do better than the imperium, we already had a discussion about this, but the imperium would win, all they have to do is deploy 10 entire chapters, and a few hundred regiments and 12 titan legions and an entire armada, the tau are gone.

The chaos gods are happy to feed on emotion- worship is nice but only because it creates more of the desired emotion. If they required emotion they would never have been created- no one came up with the idea and worshipped it there fore creating the gods. People only started worshipping them once they showed they existed.

4M2A wrote:The chaos gods are happy to feed on emotion- worship is nice but only because it creates more of the desired emotion. If they required emotion they would never have been created- no one came up with the idea and worshipped it there fore creating the gods. People only started worshipping them once they showed they existed.

You don't know the emperors plan do you? If you forget about the chaos gods (of all humanity that is.) The Chaos gods would lose alot of power.

People woudn't worship them which decreases their power because chaos worship involves creating emotions. He did that because he can't stop emotion.

Slaanesh wasn't born through worship, he was born because of the emotions of the eldar. Worship only helps because it makes people feel the desire for pleasure.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Wow, context much?

Because saying the Manta is the "best Titan killer ever" isn't?

The only thing the Manta has engaged has been Warhound Titans. The Imperium hasn't devoted anything larger to fighting the Tau--yet.

The Tau wiped the bulk of the most hyper-adaptive Hive ever to enter the galaxy through a prolonged fight

The Tau lost three worlds, one a primary Sept World, to a Hive Fleet that consisted of basically nothing but Gaunts, Rippers, and Lictors.
There were practically none of the 'big things' that the Imperium faces in every single one of their engagements against the Tyranids.

the Cadians rolled in for the final battle, deemed the remaining Nids a joke without knowing at all what had just gone down and declared the Tau weaklings.

"What had just gone down" was the Tau got practically stomped by a Hive Fleet that adapted a reflective carapace on its little critters because the Tau rely almost exclusively upon energy weapons.
In case you forgot, they had to scavenge Kroot Rifles to arm the Fire Warriors with before the Cadians arrived and showed them what's what.
Practically the only thing that showed the vaunted "Tau discipline" was the Kroot, who held the line long enough for the Tau to evac civilians from the planet.

But let's not also forget that the Tau believed the Necrons to be their saviors, and lost another world to a Necron harvest.
Fun times!

He then gave his superiors a false report about the Tau's military ability and drew the Imperium into a massive conflict just in time for the largest expansion in Tau history.

We know nothing about the Iron Campaign yet, but you can bet it will be in the Tau codex--since the author of the Tyranid book is also reputed to be the author of the Tau book.

What's better is that he didn't even know the full extent of the previous conflict before betraying the Tau. Ensuring that they will be expecting another invasion.

What did he have to "know"?
The Tau had done the critical mistake of allowing the Tyranids to adapt to their methods.
The Tyranids of Hive Fleet Gorgon consisted almost exclusively of no big beasties: the Tyranid book hints at them having faced 'mostly' Gaunts, Rippers, Warriors, and Lictors.
The Gaunts, Warriors, and Rippers evolved Chameleonic carapaces, and a form of 'gel' layering underneath that carapace that let even the freaking Rippers shrug off Pulse Rifle fire.

The Tau were getting stomped. The only real 'victory' they had over the Tyranids was in space, and even then they lost more often than not.
Face facts.

Keep in mind the first Crusade "smashed" a bunch of isolated outposts in "glorious" conquest then stopped when faced with the might of the local Fire Caste in full force, on ONE planet.

And once again: a "Crusade" can range from ten regiments(a force that is barely able to subjugate a Hive City in the Imperium if it revolts) to thousands of regiments, full Astartes Companies supporting them, thousands of Navy vessels, etc.

And you're wrong about "the might of the 'local' Fire Caste in full force".

The exact quotation from the Tau Empire book is "the full might of the Tau military".
With how little territory the Tau control and that their version of FTL is only effective for 'short hops'(i.e. within their Empire), that's not entirely unbelievable.

Imagine what the combined Empire is going to do to a bunch of misinformed Imperials, when they roll with bad intel against an enemy that is expecting them.

The Tau can be 'expecting them' all they want. The Cadian XVIII is already on Kel'shan, the Tau fleet was dumb enough to pursue the fleeing Tyranids thinking that "if they stop the fleeing Tyranids, the rest will never know what happened".

If you thought 1 sept world's forces did work on an entire "extermination" force, imagine what 17 are going to do.

Yeah...that was far from "an entire extermination force".
And it wasn't "one Sept World".
It was the full might of the Tau military.
I'd suggest you read your own quotations for accuracy if you're going to cite your army book.

What's even worse is that the primary damage done to the Tau was colonial merchant damage with one sept world being invaded, and luckily, the mighty Cadians SAVED it!

And the 'mighty Cadians' are still on the planet, with orbital assets in place while the Tau orbital assets are off on a wild goose chase in an asteroid belt.

haha worst case scenario ever man, this will make Taros look like a joke.

Going to be a fun read for sure! Great way to start a new Tau dex!

And the author's a Guard fanboy.

Hahaha, joke's on you!

Retrias wrote:But Brother Coa, He didn't stop. He is still think that if Imperium actually wants to kill Tau, The Tau would win .

Than he should read this: http://www.facebook.com/notes/aleksandar-coa-popovic/question/1929847535127?notif_t=note_comment

And watch this:

Meh, the imperium of man has a pretty good chance of standing up against anything the universe can throw at it. I liked the idea of one warboss uniting all of its race and completely pillaging the universe, but it would be balanced out by all the Astartes and the combined might of the IG. It'd just be endless war.

The entire galaxy is at war. So.....the orks won.

The verdict would be in the readers hands Kan.

If you believe 2 Regiments of Guard, 5 Space Marine Companies and 3 Titans required the full might of the Tau Empire to fight, I would suggest you re-read the context in which the passage is used. Otherwise, Taros would be a very comedic up-set given the size of the element being even smaller than Dal'yths defenses against forces that were even more numerous.



The Tau use Coaltions sized elements per system defense as per their codex.



As for the IoM love, I love it! Thx Coa for sharing the vids man! Nicely done! Read your FB blog, some good points made and discussed, agreed with a lot of what was reasoned.


Hey guys, to throw back into more logical talks, fact is, if the IoM had the resources to wipe out every threat at once they would use em. Mobilizing 10 Chapters isn't something you do, the Authority for such an action requires impending doom like Cadia's defense against a Black Crusade, or a mega WAAAAGH etc.

Taking on the Tau is percieved as "bleh" at most from the IoM, I don't even think the High Lords of Terra even know or care about the conflict.

This works for both, the Tau expand and protect an area of space that the Imperium really doesn't. Meanwhile, the IoM makes itself a large buffer between the Tau and nasty things like Chaos, WAAAGHs, and Nids. While they are utterly massive, they aren't able to send troops everywhere, the force needed to crush the Tau would be larger than the force sent to defend Cadia. It would never be justified or allowed in any shape or form unless the Tau began a serious conquest into Imperium space at rapid speeds.


Until a new dex comes out describing the Iron Hammer Campaign I'll just opt to wait and see. Should be fun if they base a cool campaign around it. Then 5th Edition Tau can test out their new shooty armies on IG players in a new setting that isn't played out.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Hey guys, to throw back into more logical talks, fact is, if the IoM had the resources to wipe out every threat at once they would use em.

Fact?
Fact is, the IG could just march over these Tau and trample them beneath their boots.

But, the IoM is known to react slowly...but also steady. They never stop. And hit hard enough to end more civilizations than Tau have etherals. Why should GW write anything to allow to wipe out every threat at once when the theme is eternal war?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Mobilizing 10 Chapters isn't something you do, the Authority for such an action requires impending doom like Cadia's defense against a Black Crusade, or a mega WAAAAGH etc.

Badab war
All it needed was the authority of the iNquisition.
It was not even a black crusade or a "mega"-waagh.
Thus, a few thousand renegades are more of a threat then Tau...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Taking on the Tau is percieved as "bleh" at most from the IoM, I don't even think the High Lords of Terra even know or care about the conflict.
This works for both, the Tau expand and protect an area of space that the Imperium really doesn't.

Somebody sent marines to kick these blue grey asses and they did. Guess who...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Meanwhile, the IoM makes itself a large buffer between the Tau and nasty things like Chaos, WAAAGHs, and Nids.

There lies the Tau's mistake. This was so, but changed. Read 5th ed. Tau got several nid incursions and waaghs.
Those didn't care to visit the IoM on their move.
Chaos is not interested yet, but there is no CSM background including Tau so far and we will see who gets to intercept the minions of the ruinous powers to save the Tau.
Seems there is a trend. Tau boast about their abilities, but in the end their allies and neighbours do the job.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
While they are utterly massive, they aren't able to send troops everywhere, the force needed to crush the Tau would be larger than the force sent to defend Cadia. It would never be justified or allowed in any shape or form unless the Tau began a serious conquest into Imperium space at rapid speeds.

No, much smaller.
And thiefs get caught, so stealing planets gets you exactly this unwanted attention.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Until a new dex comes out describing the Iron Hammer Campaign I'll just opt to wait and see. Should be fun if they base a cool campaign around it. Then 5th Edition Tau can test out their new shooty armies on IG players in a new setting that isn't played out.

Its a single hint and may not generate a campaign. You'll have to start one yourself.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:If you believe 2 Regiments of Guard, 5 Space Marine Companies and 3 Titans required the full might of the Tau Empire to fight,

What 'full might of the Tau military' is it talking about then?
'The full might of the Tau military' is a pretty cut and dry statement, Beef.
This isn't saying 'The full might of Dal'yth's system defense forces'(which weren't many to begin with, because Dal'yth isn't a Fire Caste world, it's a Water Caste world)--it's saying 'The full might of the Tau military'

I would suggest you re-read the context in which the passage is used.

And I've read it, five times over.
Never once did I see any listing of "5 Space Marine Companies".

That's nearly 500 Space Marines, or fully half of a Chapter. There's no bloody way that many were assigned to a theater where two Guard Regiments were deployed.
Now, I think you might be confusing the fact that forces from five Chapters were involved, but we have no actual set listing of the forces provided from them.

Of course, there's discrepancies in that fluff as well because of Nimbosa, but that's a whole different thread.

Otherwise, Taros would be a very comedic up-set given the size of the element being even smaller than Dal'yths defenses against forces that were even more numerous.

Yes, let's have a look at Taros, shall we?
The 4621st Imperial Guard Army consisted of the following:
We had 12 Guard Regiments[two of which are Stormtrooper Companies, which would have been operating within the make-up of the other Regiments](and furthermore, of which, 2 regiments--the 19th Kriegs' Armoured and 8th Brimlock Dragoons--never saw action because they never actually arrived at the warzone).
From the Navy we saw 4 fighter wings, 2 bomber wings, and 1 tactical wing directly employed. In terms of Capital ships:
We had the Righteous Power(Overlord class), Star of Cassiopeia(Tyrant class), Black Duke(Dictator class), Hammer of Thrace(Lunar class), August and Cerebus(both dauntless class).
We then had 4 escort squadrons, two being Sword class, one Cobra, and the last Firestorm.
For transports we had 4 armed transports, 5 unarmed transports, 3 heavy transports, a heavy tanker, and a 'Behemoth class' transport.

From the Astartes, we saw three Companies(2 from the Raptors, 1 from the Avenging Sons), 10 Raptor Scouts, and various amounts of equipment ranging from Dreadnoughts to Thunderhawks(of which the crews are included within the make-up of those three Companies).
The Astartes also provided 3 ships.
Raptors provided the 'War-Talon'(Battle Barge) and a Gladius class Escort
The Avenging Sons provided a single Strike Cruiser, the 'Proxima Justus'.

The Adeptus Mechanicus supplied 224 Enginseer Teams, and 12 Ordnance Teams.
These were not actual 'combat' units, but logistical units charged with maintaining all the tanks and aircraft, not to mention the single Scout Titan Battlegroup in the warzone(Legio Ignatum). And I should also remind you that for all the 'amazing Titan killing' prowess of Mantas and Tiger Shark AX-1-0's...they killed a single Warhound.

The Tau numbers have never actually been put down as exact numbers. The estimate was a Coalition consisting of 100 Hunter Cadres; which would be 'a grand total between 8-9000 Fire Warriors', 'maybe as many as 5000 Kroot allies', 'added to this were in excess of 8000 human traitors who fought in the Tau cause'.

That's just the ground forces mind you, the Air Caste, Earth Caste, and the like numbers were never talked about and the guesstimated Tau(not Kroot, not Gue'vasa, Tau) casualties are in excess of 5000--including a fair number of Ethereals.
This is far from the 'crushing defeat' to the Imperium that you like to make it be.

Well kan, I think at this point it's more a debate than actual proof.

I'd like to discuss it but we would both draw on a ton of variables. Lexi has the forces listed and it was 5 Companies involvment but it what cohesion you would have to dig deeper. I'd imagine it would be a mixed use of some sort.

Coalitions are implied defenders of each major Sept.

A Coalition is massive.

P22-23

A Contigent is the equal in size to a Guard Regiment.

A Command is several contingents. (Several Guard Regiments)

A Coalition is several Commands. Every single major Tau Sept has a Coalition due to the nature of Tau Expanse. Farsight for example, went renegade with his forces and was able to wage a decade long campaign and conquer several planets and colonize them. These are massive forces and the Imperium basically ran into the Dal'yth Coalition on Dal'yth prime.

Had it been the full weight of the Tau Empire it would of been over in days for the Imperials.

They aren't as tiny as you think, when Aun'va gave his speech, one million Fire Warriors were present at the speech alone on bended knee. The Tau have a lot more dudes than most people think.

Full might of the Tau military implies they were now fighting the actual Tau Empire in Combat. These were no longer little outposts, the Imperium was fighting a massive force, a Coalition.