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BeefCakeSoup wrote:


My bet is the Imperium will slog through, get bogged down, crush a few things, get worn out and quit. . .

IoM getting bogged down?


Simply, start reading other codices, not water caste flyers.....

Your posts contain as many facts as the "I.I.U.P. DGE" ( BL publication ).

Pretty much, youre wrong and roleplaying as naive / ignorant Tau gets you where it leads the Tau themselves: nowhere.
Until you provide correct citations, there will be nothing to debate as wisful thinking isn't debatable.

THE GUARD DIDN'T RETEAT, THEY WERE RECALLED. Why, becouse a real fighting force called the Nids showed up. NOT BECOUSE OF ANYTHING THE TAU DID.

Nothing you posted disproved this.

Noir wrote:THE GUARD DIDN'T RETEAT, THEY WERE RECALLED. Why, becouse a real fighting force called the Nids showed up. NOT BECOUSE OF ANYTHING THE TAU DID.

Nothing you posted disproved this.

According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.

Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?

That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.

If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.


Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Noir wrote:THE GUARD DIDN'T RETEAT, THEY WERE RECALLED. Why, becouse a real fighting force called the Nids showed up. NOT BECOUSE OF ANYTHING THE TAU DID.

Nothing you posted disproved this.

According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.

Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?

That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.

If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.


Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?

Or just maybe, Warp travel takes time to get there. So they pull the force close to the fighting, instead of waiting until they other IG get there. You know becouse soimetime you end up getting there, years to late to do anything. As you like to say tactics.

And were dose it "That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far."

To the last thing, have you only read the Tau book?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.

Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?

That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.

If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.

Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?

But the Imperium has also the ability to put it's forces in a fights that can decide the fates of a whole sectors of space. And Imperium posses never ending force to send, but they are only recruiting 10% of a Hive City population for fights ( exceptions are great conflicts ). I have a question for you: why USA don't send million of troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and deal with Taliban's? Why don't USA army don't rally millions of solders and attack Iran? Because not 1 country in this Earth ( same goes for the Imperium ) don't mobilize every single citizen into a solder. You would need many equipment, food, supply's, trainings and fuel. And Imperium is facing several enemies at the same time who are far grater threat than the Tau, and of course they will recall troops to fight a much WORTHY opponent. Why bother with insignificant threat when the more larger threat is at our doorstep?
And Imperium os not broken, it still stands with all of it's major and minor worlds. Facing all the horrors of the galaxy being trowed against it. While Tau can't defeat "manor" crusade fleet, Imperium has stooped Black Crusades and Tyranid Invasions.
This is my quote to Tau millitary

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Noir wrote:THE GUARD DIDN'T RETEAT, THEY WERE RECALLED. Why, becouse a real fighting force called the Nids showed up. NOT BECOUSE OF ANYTHING THE TAU DID.

Nothing you posted disproved this.

According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.

Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?

That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.

If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.


Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?

Jesus Christ, I'm sick of trying to reason with you. All I can say is go read something that isn't the Tau codex and finally realise that the Tau aren't the be-all end-all of 40k. In fact, they're barely competitors.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Noir wrote:THE GUARD DIDN'T RETEAT, THEY WERE RECALLED. Why, becouse a real fighting force called the Nids showed up. NOT BECOUSE OF ANYTHING THE TAU DID.

Nothing you posted disproved this.

According to what has been posted, that doesn't make sense.

Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?

That contradicts almost every single counter-point made so far.

If it is true the only possible thing it could mean is that the Imperium doesn't infact have never ending forces to send, that they do value the lives of their men, that they can't waste troops if they indeed need even small forces for one factions incursions.


Point I'm making is that the Guard are great (human standards), but they are only humans fighting for a worn down human empire long past it's prime. People keep making the Imperium out to be some pre-heresy mega empire. Whatever happened to a broken empire with a broken leader fighting for it's very survival in the grimdark of 40k? Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?

And how much more than that are the Tau, exactly?

Meh, no matter how much the Tau fanboys want to think otherwise, the Tau are still just a very small, very minor empire, of which there are thousands of that the Imperium has to deal with on a day to day basis. As far as the Imperium is concerned, the Tau empire is nothing more than a footnote in in the beginning of the history of the conflict with the Tyranids.

Nuff said...

Have players just assumed that since a few awesome battles the IoM is now unstoppable?

Heh.

You assume just as much with Tau.

Sing the words to "America... #&@* Yeah" from Team America.

Replace the words America with Space Marines.

You now have read the bulk of 40k fluff.

All xenos arguements are invalid.

:(

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.

The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.

Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.

So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.

More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.

And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.

Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.

I agree bad rifles and bad armor. however, did you really just say bad tanks? If there is anything the IG has going for them, its their armor companies. That is the worst statement I have heard in a long time.

Also you keep throwing around human corruptibility..... there have been some planets to convert to the greater good. Though these are regular people and some guard. Most Imperial forces have the Emperor so drilled into their head they have wet dreams about him. Also good luck EVER getting a space marine to convert to their greater good dream. The 40K universe is war and grimdark. Not diplomacy and flower's. You would have to show me pigs flying through a frozen hell to make me believe a space marine chapter was helping the Tau out against the Imperium. Chaos has more pull over human minds, but then again they wouldn't be fighting Chaos would they?

Also, the Imperium has enough guard to lay on the Tau and crush them with their weight. The Tau Empire is 20 world's, I consider this an Imperial outpost.

Ayways, away from Tau fanboyism.

Chaos did exactly what they wanted with the HH. They punched the crap out of the Imperium, making it more susceptible to other attacks on its frontiers by other races. THis feeds the chaos gods exactly how they want. You think they WANT to wipe out humans? We atre their main source of food. Constant war is exactly what they want and they got it.

generally you have to admire the basic guardsman for even being there. hes got balls, thats for sure.

tarnish wrote:generally you have to admire the basic guardsman for even being there. hes got balls, thats for sure.

With a guy like Ollanius Pius and his Power Balls you're not kidding!

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Apparently, the Imperium has the ability to send millions to die while billions stand ready. Why would they take a small crusade out of fighting?

Replace "millions to die while billions stand ready" with "billions to die while trillions stand ready". The Imperium has over a million worlds, and a population in the quadrillions. The Tau have a few dozen worlds, only a handful of which have any meaningful population (what is it, seven? eight? I can't recall), the rest being minor outposts and undeveloped colonies. If only .1% of Imperial worlds are Hiveworlds, their Hiveworlds outnumber the Tau equivalent better than a hundred to one, each with an average population in the hundreds of billions. What's the average population of a Tau sept? A few tens of billions?

Brother Coa wrote:And Imperium posses never ending force to send, but they are only recruiting 10% of a Hive City population for fights ( exceptions are great conflicts )

Divide that number by one hundred, and you get the exceptionally high emergency tithe percentage. Armageddon was tithed for one hundred million recruits, less than one tenth of a percent of its population; this was stated to be exceptionally high, due to the extenuating circumstances in the region (IG codex, page 8, I believe it is).

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Chaos did exactly what they wanted with the HH. They punched the crap out of the Imperium, making it more susceptible to other attacks on its frontiers by other races. THis feeds the chaos gods exactly how they want. You think they WANT to wipe out humans? We atre their main source of food. Constant war is exactly what they want and they got it.

Bah, Chaos isn't benefitting from the constant war as much as Orks are. And they never will.

With the constant war, the constant readiness of the Imperium, the constant search and suspicion, it's quite hard for Chaos to dig its claws into a new area, and frequently where it HAS been able to establish itself it gets cut out and burned, only to regrow more fervently Imperial than before it latched on.

Orks, however, have no need to leech off of other populations or convert anyone to their cause. They are their OWN cause, and war is their paradise.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Mr. Just Dave, you are a very reasonable poster. You have given logical reasons supporting what you are saying. granted you aren't 100% fair, but you are certainly giving the fairest application of truth when compared to Commisar Kan. Not a dig, but compliment Kan, you could make a guard defeat look like a sacred battle, and thats what debating fluff is really about in a lot of ways.

Thank you. And to think, that was me being impolite. Nonetheless...

Just Dave, if we fairly applied the fact that Tau haven't been battle tested, we would have to look at their capability in war. They can't afford massive losses, but the thing is, they seldom take large military losses. Sure thay have lost forces, but not akin to 10 million dead here and there in a campaign (troops).

Taros shows how Tau play against a powerful military, they cut logistics, sway the people, hold key positions and win the fight. They are masters of warfare and know how to outmanuever and defeat many many many times their numbers. So the power of numbers runs into a wall against them. Debating that the numbers are limitless or near limitless only runs that discussion in circles.

The Guard has proven countless times it's potential to win against many foes, but against Tau they don't have such a great record. Why not? Main reason I've heard so far is they don't want too. What it really is, is that the Imperium can barely send anything to fight the Tau. Galactic frontlines stretch even the biggest empires thin. Hell, they had to recall the Crusade they sent after nids rolled up. They simply have a hard time doing anything serious. When they do send something large enough we will see how a large force does against a specialized force.

My bet is the Imperium will slog through, get bogged down, crush a few things, get worn out and quit. Pretty much, that's how the Imperium always fights Tau. Space Marines have a better track record, but being such a limited force on a galactic scale, waging a campaign with them in any large numbers would be high risk to other fronts.

Once again you've missed the crux of the issue which is that the Tau simply don't warrant such attention from the IoM. As you've said, the Imperium appears to be stretched thin across many fronts and are facing threats from all angles and ultimately, the Tau don't really register as one of these threats.

The Tau don't survive due to their military might or superior ability over the Imperium, they simply do because the Imperium lets them. The IoM could EASILY divert the resources to exterminate the Tau - admittedly leaving some other fronts weakened - but simply haven't because of other, more pressing matters.

It's not that the Tau is superior military force or the Imperium fears - or should fear - the casulties they will gain, they could defeat the Tau and with relative ease. However they haven't as they have more substantial threats and without any bias towards the Tau or the IoM, that's the crux of the issue IMHO and the existing battles have done nothing to disprove this theory/fact.

The Tau are little more than a boil on the butt of the Imperium. What happens to troublesome boils? They get removed eventually and in the case of the Imperium, it will be with a very, very big lance.

FOR THE DARK GODS .. ahem .. I mean Emperor ..

Are we still arguing why Tau that little thing on the corner of the galaxy with Ultramarine area surrounding it can actually survive? If for some reason, Calgar wakes up and decided that Ultramarine should get the whole part of the galaxy. Tau will be extinct , then again pick any major chapter/Race and strong enough reason they will descent upon the Tau,and blow it to kingdom come

Retrias wrote:Are we still arguing why Tau that little thing on the corner of the galaxy with Ultramarine area surrounding it can actually survive? If for some reason, Calgar wakes up and decided that Ultramarine should get the whole part of the galaxy. Tau will be extinct , then again pick any major chapter/Race and strong enough reason they will descent upon the Tau,and blow it to kingdom come

I don't know if an unassisted chapter, even one as wardsome as the Ultramarines, would be able to do it, the Tau are fairly potent and they have some pretty bad ass allies.

There would have to be full campaign launched against Tau space and not be interrupted by a more important threat, like what happened during the Damocles Crusade.

Right, it would need to be Ultramarines assisted by Imperial Guard, as usual. Imperial Guard doing most of the work, Ultramarines triking at valuable targets, etc.

Melissia wrote:Right, it would need to be Ultramarines assisted by Imperial Guard, as usual. Imperial Guard doing most of the work, Ultramarines triking at valuable targets, etc.

Ultramarines have fared 'okay' in fighting the Tau, but the real way to pimpslap the Tau would be to let the Deathwatch and Raven Guard run wild on them.

Ethereals dropping dead all over will take some of the fight out of the Tau

Tau = Fish'eads that go great wiv a white fungus brew.

Just my 2 cents on the current Tau vs IoM thread. It seems most people have an idea that the Guard is a bunch of poorly trained rabble, dying by the millions to gain 1 foot of ground. But its not always the case. The tactics of the Guard vary from regiment to regiment. So that implies a lot of flexibility, due to each regiment has a specialty, ie Catachans in jungles, Valhallens in Ice Worlds, Clone troopers... er i mean Death Corps of Kreig in sieges. So don't assume that all the Guard will do is infantry waves. Second, the guard, at least in 5th ed codex, tend to out ranged the Tau when it comes to heavy weapons. Autocannons, which are everywhere in the Guard FOC, as are Heavy Bolters, and Multi Lasers. AC are 48 and HB and MLs are 36. Most Tau weaponry cuts off around the 30-36 range. So given enough AC's, the Guard will out range the Tau in support weapons. Also the Guard does have very beastly Tanks. Leman Russ' are dirt cheap and can run on wood. Then you got the artillery, The Bassies 36-240 range, the . Nothing in the Tau arsenal comes close to the range except seeker missiles. So the only area where the Tau out range the IG is in small arms fire. In firepower, the Guard will win out to the sheer number of troops it has. More guns equals more Dakka. This is just what the IG does. Space Marines are more flexible, the rapier to the IG Warhammer [had to say it sorry. ] So looking at Codex numbers to get a rough feeling for weapon ranges, you see the IoM has the Edge in Range, Firepower, and Armor. I'll be fair and say Tau military doctrine is better then the IoM. But if you want to compare historical, the Tau are Nazi Germany, the IoM Soviet Union. The Soviets over came the Nazi's in the end, due to numbers and better tanks. When the Nazi's had the better leadership and doctrines.

TL;DR

The IoM has the Advantage in support weapon range and firepower. Plus Superior Armor. Tau slightly has better leadership and doctrines

Edge: IoM

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Just my 2 cents on the current Tau vs IoM thread. It seems most people have an idea that the Guard is a bunch of poorly trained rabble, dying by the millions to gain 1 foot of ground. But its not always the case. The tactics of the Guard vary from regiment to regiment. So that implies a lot of flexibility, due to each regiment has a specialty, ie Catachans in jungles, Valhallens in Ice Worlds, Clone troopers... er i mean Death Corps of Kreig in sieges. So don't assume that all the Guard will do is infantry waves. Second, the guard, at least in 5th ed codex, tend to out ranged the Tau when it comes to heavy weapons. Autocannons, which are everywhere in the Guard FOC, as are Heavy Bolters, and Multi Lasers. AC are 48 and HB and MLs are 36. Most Tau weaponry cuts off around the 30-36 range. So given enough AC's, the Guard will out range the Tau in support weapons. Also the Guard does have very beastly Tanks. Leman Russ' are dirt cheap and can run on wood. Then you got the artillery, The Bassies 36-240 range, the . Nothing in the Tau arsenal comes close to the range except seeker missiles. So the only area where the Tau out range the IG is in small arms fire. In firepower, the Guard will win out to the sheer number of troops it has. More guns equals more Dakka. This is just what the IG does. Space Marines are more flexible, the rapier to the IG Warhammer [had to say it sorry. ] So looking at Codex numbers to get a rough feeling for weapon ranges, you see the IoM has the Edge in Range, Firepower, and Armor. I'll be fair and say Tau military doctrine is better then the IoM. But if you want to compare historical, the Tau are Nazi Germany, the IoM Soviet Union. The Soviets over came the Nazi's in the end, due to numbers and better tanks. When the Nazi's had the better leadership and doctrines.

Agreed!
Now lets compare the orks and the tau in close combat shall we?

Pilau Rice wrote:

Retrias wrote:Are we still arguing why Tau that little thing on the corner of the galaxy with Ultramarine area surrounding it can actually survive? If for some reason, Calgar wakes up and decided that Ultramarine should get the whole part of the galaxy. Tau will be extinct , then again pick any major chapter/Race and strong enough reason they will descent upon the Tau,and blow it to kingdom come

I don't know if an unassisted chapter, even one as wardsome as the Ultramarines, would be able to do it, the Tau are fairly potent and they have some pretty bad ass allies.

There would have to be full campaign launched against Tau space and not be interrupted by a more important threat, like what happened during the Damocles Crusade.

Sorry for the wordings, Ultramarine have ridiculous number of allies yes? I mean the whole entirety of Ultramarine and his friends (allied chapters, if there is allied regiment, some other force might chip in)

I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet, is killkrazy okay?
We should make a separate thread for the Tau stuff and get this one back on track. Ill do that I guess.

If the HH was to destroy the Imperium and wipe out all order in the universe, they would have definitely dropped the Imperium if they wanted to. They got just as far as the Chaos gods wanted. Now there is turmoil and a thinly stretched Imperium. Would the Imperium really be in the same situation if had all of those space marines still?


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Go people! Assault this thread!

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet, is killkrazy okay?
We should make a separate thread for the Tau stuff and get this one back on track. Ill do that I guess.

If the HH was to destroy the Imperium and wipe out all order in the universe, they would have definitely dropped the Imperium if they wanted to. They got just as far as the Chaos gods wanted. Now there is turmoil and a thinly stretched Imperium. Would the Imperium really be in the same situation if had all of those space marines still?

It was a sidebar discussion but it started out as Tau vs Enemies then shifted toward Tau vs IoM. Mostly due to my comments and other comments in response, I apologize for the derail. I have read the respones and many of them seem reasonable. I'll hold my peace in this topic on them.

Main Topic about Chaos already winning.

Yes, Chaos has infact achieved victory over the IoM in a very large way. Horus was set up by the dark gods to put the Emperor into undeath. Chaos most likely knew Horus wouldn't be able to defeat the Emperor fully, which is most likely what they wanted. The Emperor's vast power split between two realms (warp/realspace)

This allows him to be taken out of the picture for the most part, while ensuring Chaos has endless souls to devour.

So in short, I think Chaos has claimed a pretty dominant win over the IoM and the Galaxy. The only two races that pose the 4 Gods any real threat in an endgame capacity are the Necrons and the Tyranids. Both purge souls from worlds that offer worship or sacrafice.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I am surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet, is killkrazy okay?
We should make a separate thread for the Tau stuff and get this one back on track. Ill do that I guess.

If the HH was to destroy the Imperium and wipe out all order in the universe, they would have definitely dropped the Imperium if they wanted to. They got just as far as the Chaos gods wanted. Now there is turmoil and a thinly stretched Imperium. Would the Imperium really be in the same situation if had all of those space marines still?

It was a sidebar discussion but it started out as Tau vs Enemies then shifted toward Tau vs IoM. Mostly due to my comments and other comments in response, I apologize for the derail. I have read the respones and many of them seem reasonable. I'll hold my peace in this topic on them.

Main Topic about Chaos already winning.

Yes, Chaos has infact achieved victory over the IoM in a very large way. Horus was set up by the dark gods to put the Emperor into undeath. Chaos most likely knew Horus wouldn't be able to defeat the Emperor fully, which is most likely what they wanted. The Emperor's vast power split between two realms (warp/realspace)

This allows him to be taken out of the picture for the most part, while ensuring Chaos has endless souls to devour.

So in short, I think Chaos has claimed a pretty dominant win over the IoM and the Galaxy. The only two races that pose the 4 Gods any real threat in an endgame capacity are the Necrons and the Tyranids. Both purge souls from worlds that offer worship or sacrafice.

Well by all means if you still want to debate your point I made the thread for it. Just not here so we do not see another thread locked. I blame nobody. These things just happen in debates

Also, the Imperium has enough guard to lay on the Tau and crush them with their weight. The Tau Empire is 20 world's, I consider this an Imperial outpost.

Not even 20 anymore. The chaos marines taken over one of there planets and made a death world, and I believe that the Vostroyans took one of their planets back from the Tau? Am I correct? I am sure about the chaos one but I might be wrong about the Vostroyans (could be a rumor).

The Tau are powerful forces but yeah they also suffer many hard defeats. Anyways my point of view is that the 40k universe is kinda a tie war. Races constantly fighting and winning and loosing their planets and relics over and over and over and over again. Chaos perhaps wins alot of wars and yes they stopped the Imperium spreading fast but how ever notice that after the Horus Heresy the Imperium has actually became alot stronger and the faiths of people in man kind is stronger then ever! But yeah CHAOS FTW!



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but the real way to pimpslap the Tau would be to let the Deathwatch and Raven Guard run wild on them.

Ethereals dropping dead all over will take some of the fight out of the Tau

Nahh Id say Blood Angels and Space Wolves