Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I agree with the OP. Think about it, about 20,000 years ago the sudden imergence of masses of human psykers combined with an increasingly decadent eldar empire, feeds the powers in the warp, making the warp so turbulent that even short warp jumps are almost impossible. Their strength continues to grow untill in one huge cataclysm the Eldar empire is obliterated by the birth of Slaanesh. Great Chaos wins...oh wait, maybe not, the Chaos gods feed on emotion in the material realm, psykers and Eldar give off way more of an echo in the immaterium than any other race. So look at the situation now, the prime source of food for the Gods has been wiped out by their greedy new brother Slaanesh, surviving eldar now either where soulstones to keep their souls going to the warp or have gone into hiding in the webway where they can't be touched. Old night is over and most of the surviving human colonies have stayed intact by wiping out or controlling psykers, those worlds lost to rogue sorcerers have mostly burnt themselves out and been destroyed by demonic of xenos invasion. In other words, food is now a lot more scarce for warp entities.

Now it's established that the Chaos powers constantly wax and wane but this was going to be a collosal comedown for them, the Age of Strife was an all you can eat buffet of carnage and now the four have only scraps to sustain them.

The Emperor, had been around for nearly 30,000 years by this point, why did he act so late? Precisely for this reason, for the first time in a long time the Chaos Gods had very little to sink their claws into, now was the best time to strike them by cutting off their food supply for good.

However the Emperors grand plan failed.
Fast forward to 40k, the imperium has to maintain a cruel bloody regime of constant warfare, psykers are needed in their thousands just to keep communication between worlds and billions die everyday just to hold the imperium together. The Chaos Gods now have an infinite supply of energy, thanks to the violent regime of the imperium millions turn to worship chaos to escape the harsh reality of their lives, and in response billions more have to be killed to stop the taint spreading. It is locked in an endless cycle of death and pain, the very thing the Chaos Gods need to grow in influence and strength. Humanity can never win now, it either will stay locked in a war that benefits their enemy or they give up and face extinction. I really don't see how that is not a victory for Chaos. Like the Op said, Chaos doesnt need a big flashy hollywood victory, as long as battles rage and people die, they're getting what they want.

KorPhaeron77 wrote: Like the Op said, Chaos doesnt need a big flashy hollywood victory, as long as battles rage and people die, they're getting what they want.

Same could be said of the Imperium. As long as it survives, and humanity lives on, the Emperor wins. His goal, after all, was to safeguard humanity.

As for the Tau debate, they are not a major threat except on the Eastern Fringe. Even there, they will struggle to expand. Their technology is not greater than that of the Imperium's (or any factions, really (except for the Tyranids)). As for Daemons, I suspect the Tau would falter before a large scale Daemonic invasion. They aren't incorruptible and they do have souls, just not much of a soul presence, so they aren't psychic and Daemons aren't attracted to them. There is, however, no reason a Daemon could not possess or corrupt one given the proper circumstances and motivation.

Chaos isn't getting what they want.

No, that's Orks.

Tau are an Empire, the IoM tried to stop them. They failed.

Sadly, the Imperium is comprised of slow thinking chimps with lasguns in comparison to them. Outwitted at every turn and put to shame in doctrines of warfare. The Imperium doesn't understand how the Tau doctrine works, those who do percieve them as a much larger threat.

The Tau are the one enemy in the galaxy capable of crudding on Titans with superior Manta firepower, melting terminators with battlesuits and destroying guard with pulse rifle armed FWs.

The fact such a young Empire laughs at Titans speaks for itself. So far, the IoM has used two Titan Legions against the Tau in battles.

Both times the Titans were either destoyed or took losses to the Legion that were deemed unacceptable. When in most battles they would have turned the tide. That alone shines a bright light on mankinds future.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau are an Empire, the IoM tried to stop them. They failed.

Pahahahaahahahah....

Tau are an empire in the same sense that Luxembourg is a great and powerful nation.


[no offense meant to any Luxembourgers of course, but your country IS one of the smallest in the world.]

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau are an Empire, the IoM tried to stop them. They failed.

Sadly, the Imperium is comprised of slow thinking chimps with lasguns in comparison to them. Outwitted at every turn and put to shame in doctrines of warfare. The Imperium doesn't understand how the Tau doctrine works, those who do percieve them as a much larger threat.

The Tau are the one enemy in the galaxy capable of crudding on Titans with superior Manta firepower, melting terminators with battlesuits and destroying guard with pulse rifle armed FWs.

The Tau using Mantas to counter Titans is like the Imperium purging an entire world just because there's a single bunker full of Tau in the polar region.
Mantas are space vessels, roughly equivalent to the Astartes' Thunderhawk in terms of size and usage, which are used by the Tau as gunships in space combat, with weaponry intended to fill that role and let them punch through Void Shields and damage

The Mantas were used early on to counter Titans, but then around the time of Taros we saw the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 introduced(which is a Tiger Shark packing Manta sized railguns) to try to reduce the risk to the Mantas(which are valuable, in that they can transport an entire Hunter Cadre into combat and are a huge target to Imperial fighters. The Tau had to pull entire air wings off of offensive operations to escort the Mantas into areas where Titans were present. That's not "practical" for the Tau).

The fact such a young Empire laughs at Titans speaks for itself. So far, the IoM has used two Titan Legions against the Tau in battles.

And both times the Tau have had to react to the Titans.

Them redeploying entire air wings to cover Manta Gunships, crippling both their offensive and mobile strike capabilities(offensive from the prospect of losing air wings, mobile strike from the fact that they had to remove the Hunter Cadres which would be using the Mantas for combat deployment) in the first engagement against Titans says anything but "they laugh at Titans".

During Taros, we saw them strip out weaponry from capital ships and Mantas to up-arm Tiger Sharks in an attempt to make the usage of those railguns against Titans(which, let's not forget were just Warhounds) far more practical says once again that they're not "laughing at Titans".

They realize Titans are a serious threat. They treat them as such.

Both times the Titans were either destroyed or took losses to the Legion that were deemed unacceptable. When in most battles they would have turned the tide. That alone shines a bright light on mankinds future.

Any Titan losses are deemed unacceptable. They're venerated machines with an illustrious history, even the Warhounds.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau are an Empire, the IoM tried to stop them. They failed.

Yeah, but they didn't put that much effort into it. They poured more into the Sabbot Worlds Crusade, for instance.

Sadly, the Imperium is comprised of slow thinking chimps with lasguns in comparison to them. Outwitted at every turn and put to shame in doctrines of warfare. The Imperium doesn't understand how the Tau doctrine works, those who do percieve them as a much larger threat.

So how are the Tau losing any planets to the Imperium then? How could they possibly be forced to concede any ground if they've got overwhelming technology, tactics and strategy? How has the Imperium even survived this long if it's weaponry is so bad.

The Tau are the one enemy in the galaxy capable of crudding on Titans with superior Manta firepower, melting terminators with battlesuits and destroying guard with pulse rifle armed FWs.

Maybe not Manta's, but they have other weapons capable of doing so, a lot of factions have battlesuit-type units capable of taking down Terminators and even more can take on Imperial Gaurdsmen.

The fact such a young Empire laughs at Titans speaks for itself. So far, the IoM has used two Titan Legions against the Tau in battles.

Not full Titan Legions, as far as I know. And also merely Warhounds, so I'd love to see how the Tau would fare against an Imperator Titan. Or even Warlords.

Somebody's been playing too much Fire Warrior of late, methinks.

undivided wrote:Somebody's been playing too much Fire Warrior of late, methinks.

Your completly right , Yeah the Tau must laugh at the Ancient Warlord Titans and Great Warmachines of the Imperium that have fought for Centuries.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Things like plagues, hallucinations, and shielding would be combat multipliers, but they alone wouldn't win a battle against the Tau, especially given the Ethereals mysterious hold on the Tau mind.

Yes, the ethereals control the minds of fellow Tau, yet in the grimdark furutre of 4oK the 'Mind over MAtter' arguement is null and void. So the Fire Warriors would rally around the
ethreal while the plaque eats away at their bodies instead of running from the oncoming horde of plague bearers.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Plus, the current genocide of fluff (GK dex) depicts a single man wandering the warp aimlessly destroying any daemon in his path. If one well trained man can wander their home turf I'm sure a massive technology advanced military can handle them in real space.

Yeah, you do realise the Grey Knights are not just well trained they are the epitomy of Space MArines, the only thing better than them is the Primarchs, Custodians and the emprah himself

BeefCakeSoup wrote:On a side note, I find it odd their hasn't been a major fight between the two, given one represents pure evil, while the other holds a more good guy title.

Tau aren't as good as you believe they are, they effectively enslave and trick populations into following them, when they have nothing left


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blood reaper wrote:

undivided wrote:Somebody's been playing too much Fire Warrior of late, methinks.

Your completly right , Yeah the Tau must laugh at the Ancient Warlord Titans and Great Warmachines of the Imperium that have fought for Centuries.

Yes a game that focuses on one Tau warrior and paints them to be whiter than white

The fact is, the imperium is ancient, and their technology is degrading, getting older. Whens the last time some new tech has come out. (please don't mention the Dreadknight, since you've "oh yeah.. always had that"..)

The tau have been around for a galactic finger snap, and are capable of engaging and destroying Titans. Not bad.

The Tau are on their way up. The IoM is rusting.

I hate the Dredknight and I don't see it as a good example of Imperial Tech , but Warlord Titans and other great Warmachines can easily destroy Tau. Please don't try using Fire Warrior as a example of amazing Tau as it was a terrible game.

Cottonjaw wrote:The fact is, the imperium is ancient, and their technology is degrading, getting older. Whens the last time some new tech has come out. (please don't mention the Dreadknight, since you've "oh yeah.. always had that"..)

The tau have been around for a galactic finger snap,

The Tau haven't "been around for a galactic finger snap".
They've been in real-space for that, yes.
Don't forget that the Tau had a Warp Storm effectively 'shielding' them for the duration of their technological advancement.

and are capable of engaging and destroying Titans. Not bad.

You know who else is capable of "engaging and destroying Titans"?
Every faction in the 40k universe.

Prior to the Damocles Gulf Crusade, the Tau had no idea of the existence of Titans.
Even then, the only thing the Tau have engaged have been Warhounds, which are Scout Titans.
The Tau, to counter Scout Titans, redeployed the equivalent of a Thunderhawk Gunship.

And even then their Mantas had to have full air wings reassigned to protect them during their assaults on the Warhounds.

Simply put: It's really not that big of a deal that the "Tau can engage and destroy Titans".

The Tau are on their way up. The IoM is rusting.

The Tau are on their way up, sure.

The IoM is far from "rusting" however. They're stagnant, but there are occasional tech advancements(mostly in the fact that they rediscover something).

blood reaper wrote:I hate the Dredknight and I don't see it as a good example of Imperial Tech , but Warlord Titans and other great Warmachines can easily destroy Tau. Please don't try using Fire Warrior as a example of amazing Tau as it was a terrible game.

Tau have their own super heavies.. besides... Apocolypse broadside batteries make short work of titans (relative to other standard heavy support choices).

Broadsides are very effective and cool looking models but still many races can field weaponry that can destroy Tau vehicles.

Surely Necrons win overall. All they need to do is wait until everyone kills each other off, then mop up the rest.


of course, not sure whatthey woudl do if they did every rid the galaxy of all life.......Necron beach party i suppose.

Chaos did steal a Tau colony and mutated the inhabitants. ( F.Bile did it ). So how again is this Tau "empire" autowinning against chaos?
Can they protect their colonies? Seems not.
Shoot that demon with your railgun. It doesn't matter, the demons returns. Tau can't kill the chaos dwellers on their own plane of existance
which would be the only way. The "stone throwing apes otoh, can.

Tau have a small warp signature, thus their not of interest. But there is nothing to base the claim of incorruptible on.

How do humans kill Chaos?

I know if you just enter into normal life (ie now (2011)) there is not enough feeding Chaos so it just diminishes and dies, but in 40k even Nemesis weapons only banish Daemons, then they regrow in the warp.
The only race I can see winning long term is Crons, as they can't die. but if you think about it:
Necrons conquer galaxy, wiping out all life/C'tan
Rescources, after millions of years, and Gauss, runs out
Crons die
C'tan enter huge battle in which only 1 is victorious.
He either dies of old age (Billions of years (how do you know they can't die of old age? its just never happened) or commits suicide from boredom
Life in Galaxy starts again.
This kind of reminds me of the Mortal Engines series where at the end of Darkling Plain where they all die/Shrike who lives on and 'watches' for millions of years and eventually life restarts again with Humans at basic tech again.

Urien_Rakarth wrote:

How do humans kill Chaos?

What has been assembled can be disassembled. GK could shatter a demon that hard, his patron may not listen to it begging to regrow.
Its possible to end a "personality" therefore. Still as some sort of energy, chaos isn't dying but transforming at best so if there is a chance
to change it, you have to be able to enter their realm to do it. Humans, or parts thereof can.
Chaos is a paradox, yes, but our view upon time would suggest that C'tan are older or as old as the creatures who became "chaos" are.
Existing that long does not confirm eternal life. It proves they were able to stay for a while...
But, the chaos demon codex stated that "final" victory of 1 chaos god over his 3 contenders would end chaos.

I'd assume the highest chance of success would have a Dragon+Emprah alliance, sharing the tech and shutting off the warp.
The evolution of psykers is a burden too, so who needs psykers if you got the tools to secure realspace almost eternally.?

Humans crunchie on outside chewy on the inside
Orks crunchie on outside chewy on the inside
Tau Humans crunchie on outside chewy on the inside
Eldar crunchie on outside chewy on the inside
More please.
- Hive Mind tweet.

Very interesting points.

I enjoy hearing some of the more passionate reasoning behind the debate. Good points.

I agree with some, but disagree with others.


1. Real space and Warp timelines - Tau spent 6,000 years surrounded by a warp storm according to Imperial Calendars.

This time wasn't a DBZ time freeze. If it was, the Tau would of drastically slowed down in technological advancement, but they did not.


2. In regards to the Tau vs IoM, the IoM saw a threat and percieved it only second to Nids in rapid rise to prominence in the galaxy. This alone proves the threat that Tau pose. Fact is, they are more technologically advanced than humans. In war, technology is paramount, in 40K, Tau have a distinct advantage. Manta's were the first answer to combating Titans, the very fact that there was even an answer to such amazing power speaks for itself. The fact that new technology was designed in short order to "hunt" Titans proves even further how deadly the Tau capacity for war is.


3. The universal debate for Tau vs IoM is numbers and FTL. Both are advantages the Imperium has, yet both have distinct drawbacks. The Tau advantages are technology and doctrine, neither of which has any drawbacks. Can the Imperium crush the Tau? With Horus leading the campaign in pre-heresy times, yes. Now? No, not fluff armor, but simply no. The Tau have taken on the might of the Imperium on several different occasions. Despite many people thinking this was but a fraction of what the IoM could do, it's what they did. As in many wars, they underestimanted an enemy they knew little about, which makes sense, you could live your whole life in 40K and never even hear about the Tau. Until the IoM restructures itself in a more effective manner, you can expect countless more "blunders" in campaigns against a well organzied enemy. Taros highlights how the IoM had the numbers to crush the Tau, but lacked supplies, support, and even troops in several battles that massively nerfed their fighting abilities on the ground.


4. Tau vs Chaos. While Chaos energies can harm the Tau, they have to battle Tau sciences, which are equally amazing. This wouldn't negate all of the power of Chaos by any means, but it would make for a very different fight for Chaos. It would be an interesting fight for sure, since Tau minds are not able to be corrupted by the warp, infact according to GW it has never happened to a single Tau. So a major part of the Chaos doctrine would be negated by the fact they couldn't use half of each primary gods power, seduction to weakness in Anger, Lust, Scheming, or the warm embrace of Sickness. In raw power, Fire Caste Army vs Daemons it would be a toss up to how many invulns daemons can make against a whole lot of damaging weapons. CSM might prove more effective, but again, they use an ancient imperial doctrine in war augmented with nerfed Chaos advantages against Tau.

I really hope they make a new dex and settle some of the theories out there, I think Tau have a lot to prove and the Imperium needs a more decisive battle to base any real outcomes on. Because so far, the Tau are looking really good on the galactic warfare scene at the IoMs expense.

Just because the Tau cannot be corrupted (read: be turned to chaos), does not mean that Chaos powers cannot affect them full stop, does it?

Khorne could still call in a few Bloodthristers. I'm pretty sure a Daemonic axe to the head will end an Ethereals day pretty quick.

Tzeentch could use all sorts of reality bending shenanigans on the world around them, distorting their perceptions.

Nurgle could expose them to a myriad of nasty plagues whcih coudl still infect them through sheer biology, not magic.

I suppose Slaanesh would have the hardest time since his power rests on being able to corrupt or influence the target.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Very interesting points.

I enjoy hearing some of the more passionate reasoning behind the debate. Good points.

I agree with some, but disagree with others.


1. Real space and Warp timelines - Tau spent 6,000 years surrounded by a warp storm according to Imperial Calendars.

This time wasn't a DBZ time freeze. If it was, the Tau would of drastically slowed down in technological advancement, but they did not.

Nobody said it was a "time freeze".

But for the entirety of that 6000 years, the Tau were effectively isolated from the rest of the universe at large and operating on a different timeframe. There was no threat to them during that time, because none could reach them.

We don't have a Tau calendar to look at, but that 6000 years in 'realspace' could have effectively been '36,000' years in the Warp.

2. In regards to the Tau vs IoM, the IoM saw a threat and percieved it only second to Nids in rapid rise to prominence in the galaxy.

...What? The Imperium of Man didn't know who the Tau were.
They were originally slated for extermination(before that whole Warp storm that protected the Tau) when they were still in their Stone Age for all intents and purposes.
It wasn't because "the IoM saw a threat".
It's because the IoM saw a habitable system, with resources. They gave exterminating the Tau no more thought than you or I would give to demolishing anthills to build a new home.

This alone proves the threat that Tau pose. Fact is, they are more technologically advanced than humans. In war, technology is paramount, in 40K, Tau have a distinct advantage.

And by all regards, Tau are still in their technological infancy when compared to the Eldar or even the Imperium.
They may have a few unique things, but many of those things have already been used by the Eldar and Imperium--and been discarded because they quickly became outmoded.

Mantas were the first answer to combating Titans, the very fact that there was even an answer to such amazing power speaks for itself. The fact that new technology was designed in short order to "hunt" Titans proves even further how deadly the Tau capacity for war is.

The Mantas weren't the "first answer to combating Titans"(and again: Warhound Titans. They might as well been fighting Knights for all the 'sheer effectiveness' of the Warhound). They were a stopgap measure, which required them to, once again, devote massive resources to protect a flying platform that could be taken down by Hydra fire or coordinated interceptor strikes from the Imperial Navy.

Every time the Mantas were brought in to deal with a Warhound, the Tau effectively had to shut down their warmaking capabilities in another front just to make sure the Mantas weren't shot down.
As to the "new technology designed in short order to hunt Titans proving how deadly the Tau capacity for war is" part...
No, it doesn't. Because there wasn't "new technology designed in short order to hunt Titans".
They placed existing technology on a new platform.
It's like the upgunning of Shermans to the Sherman 'Firefly' variant when the Allies faced heavier German tanks.

3. The universal debate for Tau vs IoM is numbers and FTL. Both are advantages the Imperium has, yet both have distinct drawbacks.

The Imperium is drawing upon thousands and thousands and thousands of systems.
The Tau are in the dozens, maybe hundreds.
The sheer amount of territory being held by the Imperium is against them, sure.
But at the same time, the Tau cannot right now move beyond their little Empire.
It's why the Imperium is content to let them stay there, while more pressing concerns are out there.

The Tau advantages are technology and doctrine, neither of which has any drawbacks.

You mean the doctrine which calls for them to completely fall back whenever they begin taking casualties?
The Tau have no stomach for a stand-up, knockdown drag-out slugfest that the Imperium does on a daily basis.

Can the Imperium crush the Tau? With Horus leading the campaign in pre-heresy times, yes. Now? No, not fluff armor, but simply no.

Why would Horus need to be involved? The Tau aren't brilliant strategists, nor are they nearly as big of a threat as the Tau players like to build them up as.

The Tau have taken on the might of the Imperium on several different occasions. Despite many people thinking this was but a fraction of what the IoM could do, it's what they did.

And despite many people thinking that "weathering a Crusade" means that they've "taken on the might of the Imperium", the Imperium can call any sized force a 'Crusade'.

As in many wars, they underestimanted an enemy they knew little about, which makes sense, you could live your whole life in 40K and never even hear about the Tau. Until the IoM restructures itself in a more effective manner, you can expect countless more "blunders" in campaigns against a well organzied enemy.

You mean until the IoM actually devotes enough resources to the matter.
The forces we saw deployed during the Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' were a pittance, at best. We see more troops and equipment in a single week of battle at the Cadian Gate(and that's when there's NOT a Black Crusade going on!) as the entirety of the Damocles 'Crusade'.

Taros highlights how the IoM had the numbers to crush the Tau, but lacked supplies, support, and even troops in several battles that massively nerfed their fighting abilities on the ground.

Taros effectively had something like half of the force scheduled for transit never arrive, alongside of the supplies and support that was supposed to be there.

And you really are discounting the most effective tool the Tau had at their disposal on Taros. The fact that it was a desert world played to the Tau's strengths. They evolved on a planet not entirely unlike Taros, their bodies are adapted to that kind of environment, and they controlled the most vital resource for desert warfare: water treatment plants.

You're also discounting the fact that the planet's PDF turned traitor and joined them, taking the anti-ship batteries and the like with them effectively keeping the Imperial vessels from being right on stand-by for the first portion of the campaign.

4. Tau vs Chaos. While Chaos energies can harm the Tau, they have to battle Tau sciences, which are equally amazing. This wouldn't negate all of the power of Chaos by any means, but it would make for a very different fight for Chaos. It would be an interesting fight for sure, since Tau minds are not able to be corrupted by the warp, infact according to GW it has never happened to a single Tau. So a major part of the Chaos doctrine would be negated by the fact they couldn't use half of each primary gods power, seduction to weakness in Anger, Lust, Scheming, or the warm embrace of Sickness. In raw power, Fire Caste Army vs Daemons it would be a toss up to how many invulns daemons can make against a whole lot of damaging weapons. CSM might prove more effective, but again, they use an ancient imperial doctrine in war augmented with nerfed Chaos advantages against Tau.

You don't need Chaos energies to corrupt the Tau with the amount of humanity that Tau has taken into their Empire.
They've, for all intents and purposes, taken the viper to their chest.

I really hope they make a new dex and settle some of the theories out there, I think Tau have a lot to prove and the Imperium needs a more decisive battle to base any real outcomes on. Because so far, the Tau are looking really good on the galactic warfare scene at the IoMs expense.

Good for the Tau.

We could always devote a 'Purge the Tau' weekend if they really think they need it...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
1. Real space and Warp timelines - Tau spent 6,000 years surrounded by a warp storm according to Imperial Calendars.

This time wasn't a DBZ time freeze. If it was, the Tau would of drastically slowed down in technological advancement, but they did not.

Time moved on slower in realspace you know....
so how about telling us who put that warpstorm there?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
2. In regards to the Tau vs IoM, the IoM saw a threat and percieved it only second to Nids in rapid rise to prominence in the galaxy. This alone proves the threat that Tau pose. Fact is, they are more technologically advanced than humans. In war, technology is paramount, in 40K, Tau have a distinct advantage.

Tau are a threat to themselves. As they want to rule where they should hope the IoM stays and takes the brunt of the fighting for another
10 millenia.
Your "fact" of more advanced tech has been refuted so often, it isn't worth doing again.
In a war, against nids, Tau have failed.Because of relying on Tech. The nids simply adapted faster. Seems the advantage of the Tau is:
-other species save their asses from nids. ( necrons, eldar, humans,etc ). Until they understand this won't last, it is most likely to late.
-last time I've checked, age of strife was triggered by heavy reliance on tech. Can wait until these Tau stumble......

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
3. The universal debate for Tau vs IoM is numbers and FTL. Both are advantages the Imperium has, yet both have distinct drawbacks. The Tau advantages are technology and doctrine, neither of which has any drawbacks. Can the Imperium crush the Tau? With Horus leading the campaign in pre-heresy times, yes.

Nice. Drawbacks for everyone except you.
Doctrine is inferior to tactics we already use today. Got any copy of Tactica imperialis? no?
No FTL to leave your small pond = imprisonment. But I am sure the creator of the warpstorm and the etherals like is so, "just as planned"...
Why should the IoM need Horus? And how? Pre-heresy were no Tau. Are these other marines not kicking your Tau arses hard enough?

Excuse me if I did cut out the fanboi part of your N3.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
4. Tau vs Chaos. While Chaos energies can harm the Tau, they have to battle Tau sciences, which are equally amazing. This wouldn't negate all of the power of Chaos by any means, but it would make for a very different fight for Chaos. It would be an interesting fight for sure, since Tau minds are not able to be corrupted by the warp, infact according to GW it has never happened to a single Tau. So a major part of the Chaos doctrine would be negated by the fact they couldn't use half of each primary gods power, seduction to weakness in Anger, Lust, Scheming, or the warm embrace of Sickness. In raw power, Fire Caste Army vs Daemons it would be a toss up to how many invulns daemons can make against a whole lot of damaging weapons.

Your hell bent on doctrines aren't you?
Tau aren't soulless, so still fall...

Chaos just mutates them, sickenes them, turns up at CC range, breaks their morale, and won't play like your ideal gaming setup IRL.
In a background based battle, it lasts more than 6 turns and demons return and return and return.....
Without the ability to shut them off ( need psykers ) you get swarmed by endless hordes.
Remember: eldar go for "close the gates" as do humans, Ctan, etc. since thats the only way. Railguns can't harm a warprift....

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I really hope they make a new dex and settle some of the theories out there, I think Tau have a lot to prove and the Imperium needs a more decisive battle to base any real outcomes on. Because so far, the Tau are looking really good on the galactic warfare scene at the IoMs expense.

Must resist urge to request citation....

Cottonjaw wrote:I think beefsoupface's point is that it's not about 40k. It's about 41k or 42k when the tau have united hundreds of races under the banner of a truly good empire.

It's a pointless arguement to say that the Tau are a major player now though. Fear stupid people in large groups. And the IoM has a TON of idiots to throw around.

What "hundred of races?" around Tau there is only Humans, Tyranids, Necrons and Orks. There are no other races near the Tau Empire, and judging by their lack of warp travel - there will never be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Tau are an Empire, the IoM tried to stop them. They failed.

Sadly, the Imperium is comprised of slow thinking chimps with lasguns in comparison to them. Outwitted at every turn and put to shame in doctrines of warfare. The Imperium doesn't understand how the Tau doctrine works, those who do percieve them as a much larger threat.

The Tau are the one enemy in the galaxy capable of crudding on Titans with superior Manta firepower, melting terminators with battlesuits and destroying guard with pulse rifle armed FWs.

The fact such a young Empire laughs at Titans speaks for itself. So far, the IoM has used two Titan Legions against the Tau in battles.

Both times the Titans were either destoyed or took losses to the Legion that were deemed unacceptable. When in most battles they would have turned the tide. That alone shines a bright light on mankinds future.

Yeah a real "empire" with all their 10 star systems... And Imperium has a really wise man that are alive since long the Tau civilization even existed. Tau have Manta - Imperium has Emperor Titans, Tau have Battlesuits - Imperium has Grey Knight Terminators, Tau have Pulse Rifles - Imperium has a ton of ordinance. And Tau only destroyed 10 Imperial Titans, all Warhound and use a lot of strategic reserves to do that. One Titan Legion has 30+ Titans, Imperium have countless Legions of Titans in the field...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cottonjaw wrote:The fact is, the imperium is ancient, and their technology is degrading, getting older. Whens the last time some new tech has come out. (please don't mention the Dreadknight, since you've "oh yeah.. always had that"..)

The tau have been around for a galactic finger snap, and are capable of engaging and destroying Titans. Not bad.

The Tau are on their way up. The IoM is rusting.

And the Tyranids are on the move, as well as Necron, Eldar, DArk Eldar, Chaos, Orks, Deamons....
When Tau have that many opponents and if they are still alive they can call us....

Cottonjaw wrote:The fact is, the imperium is ancient, and their technology is degrading, getting older. Whens the last time some new tech has come out.

All the time, just not from the Mechanicus.

Um... they've already indoctrinated the Kroot and the Vespid in what... a few years? The deimurgh are rumored to be next. It's not unlikely that smaller, less powerful races will want to band together under the banner of the greater good.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Very interesting points.

I enjoy hearing some of the more passionate reasoning behind the debate. Good points.

I agree with some, but disagree with others.


1. Real space and Warp timelines - Tau spent 6,000 years surrounded by a warp storm according to Imperial Calendars.

This time wasn't a DBZ time freeze. If it was, the Tau would of drastically slowed down in technological advancement, but they did not.


2. In regards to the Tau vs IoM, the IoM saw a threat and percieved it only second to Nids in rapid rise to prominence in the galaxy. This alone proves the threat that Tau pose. Fact is, they are more technologically advanced than humans. In war, technology is paramount, in 40K, Tau have a distinct advantage. Manta's were the first answer to combating Titans, the very fact that there was even an answer to such amazing power speaks for itself. The fact that new technology was designed in short order to "hunt" Titans proves even further how deadly the Tau capacity for war is.


3. The universal debate for Tau vs IoM is numbers and FTL. Both are advantages the Imperium has, yet both have distinct drawbacks. The Tau advantages are technology and doctrine, neither of which has any drawbacks. Can the Imperium crush the Tau? With Horus leading the campaign in pre-heresy times, yes. Now? No, not fluff armor, but simply no. The Tau have taken on the might of the Imperium on several different occasions. Despite many people thinking this was but a fraction of what the IoM could do, it's what they did. As in many wars, they underestimanted an enemy they knew little about, which makes sense, you could live your whole life in 40K and never even hear about the Tau. Until the IoM restructures itself in a more effective manner, you can expect countless more "blunders" in campaigns against a well organzied enemy. Taros highlights how the IoM had the numbers to crush the Tau, but lacked supplies, support, and even troops in several battles that massively nerfed their fighting abilities on the ground.


4. Tau vs Chaos. While Chaos energies can harm the Tau, they have to battle Tau sciences, which are equally amazing. This wouldn't negate all of the power of Chaos by any means, but it would make for a very different fight for Chaos. It would be an interesting fight for sure, since Tau minds are not able to be corrupted by the warp, infact according to GW it has never happened to a single Tau. So a major part of the Chaos doctrine would be negated by the fact they couldn't use half of each primary gods power, seduction to weakness in Anger, Lust, Scheming, or the warm embrace of Sickness. In raw power, Fire Caste Army vs Daemons it would be a toss up to how many invulns daemons can make against a whole lot of damaging weapons. CSM might prove more effective, but again, they use an ancient imperial doctrine in war augmented with nerfed Chaos advantages against Tau.

I really hope they make a new dex and settle some of the theories out there, I think Tau have a lot to prove and the Imperium needs a more decisive battle to base any real outcomes on. Because so far, the Tau are looking really good on the galactic warfare scene at the IoMs expense.

Man, you really need a break. Tau are not a threat to the Imperium. They are a little bug trying to take on Elephant. Their technology is nothing compared to the real power machines of the Imperium and other highly advanced races ( Eldar, Necrons ). And in every sci-fi, fantasy wse... MAGIC IS ALWAYS >>>> TECHNOLOGY. As proven when Imperium tech is having contact with the warp, Tau tech would probably break down near the EoT. And I really hope they continue the story where Imperium decide to simply fortify all worlds bordering the Tau so that they can be left alone, surrounded from all sides and left to die, as they are not fit to hold 10 star systems - not to mention being pushed back several times already.

And please, throw Fire Warrior in recucle bin and buy Space Marine in August. It is more realistic anyway

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The are played as being a minor threat because if Imperial citizens knew a race of creatures with better technology and several victories were slowly invading the Imperium, it would look bad for the MIGHTY image they try to uphold.

Tau are a threat, not the same kind of threat as Nids, Crons, or Chaos.. possibly the worst threat of them all, a better Empire with a promising future in the galaxy.

Overall, the Tau threat may be the worst yet. An Empire using a very similar doctrine that the Emperor employed, when he started his conquest from a humble planet called Earth. That's the same mistake countless xeno empires made when they shrugged off that Emperor guy.

This reminds me of a part in the book xenology.

Basically, an ethereal is getting interrogated, all the while going on about how everyone loves unification and the greater good and all that. The interrogator brings up a point that not everyone wants to be unified, and those that don't get killed. The ethereal states that it's a necessity. After this, the interrogator bring up O'Shavah. Goes on to talk about how he was a great warrior, and excelled in the art of battle. At some point he was sent off to reclaim some colonies with an ethereal. Along the way, the ethereal gets killed. As you say, being part of the greater good and all that, he would seek to bring peace and unification to all and continue the quest for harmony. Only he doesn't. He starts his own empire without the ethereals telling him what to do.

"Ralei - You said it yourself Aun (the ethereal), why should we rail against that which makes the most sense? Well maybe it only makes sense while you lot are in charge"

So yeah, there is something very wrong with your "better empire".

BeefCakeSoup, all of your plans are totally "best possible outcome" for Tau, without considering any other possible outcome.

What happens if a big warp rift opens in the middle of the Tau empire?

What happens if a particularly Waaagh hits them, or woe betide, if GHAZGKULL shows up with his billions of merry men?

The technology thing is dubious too. Necrons, definetly and possibly Eldar (both Dark and craftworld) are ahead of them technologically.

Really, you just seem to think that probably one of the least powerful and influential empires in the entire setting have to win just because they've got some big guns.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Chaos will never defeat the Tau Empire.

Tau don't fall to the Gods of the Warp.


Once the Empire brings to bear it's full military might against the pathetic stone throwing apes of the Imperium, they will bring a million Railguns to bear on anything that dares leave the warp.


All 4 Gods sitting in a pig pen of warp filth as the smallest, most powerful, technologically advanced Empire ever to exist wipes out the threat of corruption by merely being incorruptible.

Yet the Tau does not expand...Matter of fact it looses plaents to Chaos and Imperium in times, and Ill never forget the time when the Chaos Skull Takers took over the Tau little precious colony. Oh and tell me what will that plasma fire do against an army of Death Guards?