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BeefCakeSoup wrote:Hey guys, to throw back into more logical talks, fact is, if the IoM had the resources to wipe out every threat at once they would use em. Mobilizing 10 Chapters isn't something you do, the Authority for such an action requires impending doom like Cadia's defense against a Black Crusade, or a mega WAAAAGH etc.

Taking on the Tau is percieved as "bleh" at most from the IoM, I don't even think the High Lords of Terra even know or care about the conflict.

This works for both, the Tau expand and protect an area of space that the Imperium really doesn't. Meanwhile, the IoM makes itself a large buffer between the Tau and nasty things like Chaos, WAAAGHs, and Nids. While they are utterly massive, they aren't able to send troops everywhere, the force needed to crush the Tau would be larger than the force sent to defend Cadia. It would never be justified or allowed in any shape or form unless the Tau began a serious conquest into Imperium space at rapid speeds.

That's the key thing here IMHO, the Tau haven't done anything to prove their strength, particularly on the level you seem to talk about; the Tau appear to be naive of the wider galaxy and thanks to their location haven't had to face any 'serious' threats such as the brunt of a Hive Fleet, Ork Waaagh, Chaos Invasion or Eldar and Necron attacks. The Tau have so far been a race of rapid expansion and defence, but they have NOT been expanding into strong areas so they haven't proven their strength like you suggest.

One of the common features of Tau advancements is that they're minor worlds for the Imperium that sometimes appear to be near-deserted due to Imperial evacuation at the prospect of a Hive Fleet, allowing the Tau to advance almost unopposed.

Once the Tau gain the attention of Chaos, they are in for a serious problem. I don't deny their technical or tactical ability and they are a VERY efficient fighting force, but outside of sheer, but limited, firepower they have very little means of stopping a Chaos invasion. Tau cannot cope in close combat, and that's where the likes of Daemons and CSM's excel; they don't fight fair and the Tau would likely struggle to adapt to such an unpredictable enemy and have little chance of being able to close warp gates etc. like Psykers can.
Similarly, the Tau haven't faced a significant Hive Fleet or Ork Waaah AFAIK so their strength you keep mentioning hasn't been proved and against such forces it would be tested to the extreme. The Tau faced a splinter fleet and suffered, they eventually defeated it and adapted their tactics well, but they couldn't keep up with the adaptation of the Hive Mind and faced a relatively small Tyranid force.
As you said yourself, the Tau have not had to fight the Imperium on a large scale. Against IG, they would likely prove superior due to their tactics and the sluggishness and predictability of the Guard regiments. However, the Tau cannot handle the slug-fests and wars of attrition that are commonplace within 40K and the Tau are the near opposites of Space Marine tactics.

Tau avoid close range and try to keep the initiative. However, Space Marines are capable of seizing this initiative off them and closing into close range very quickly. The one time Tau have faced Space Marines on any remote scale was at Zeist it seems and the Tau were quickly defeated as the Space Marines used their own rapid, thrusting attacks against the Tau who couldn't combat them effectively.


As I said, the Tau have proven to have the strength you keep speaking of, you're talking in speculation and exaggeration IMHO as they have not shown this apparent strength as none of the races believe they warrant it nor have fought the Tau on a large scale.

Other races such as the Imperium, Chaos, Orks and Tyranids have shown their strength and capability and thus far it HUGELY outweighs that of the Tau. Assuming the Tau expand further and draw further attention, then we can see if they are as powerful as you seem to think. Until then however, they are little more than a blip on the galactic map and have hence not drawn and significant attention or proved their true military capability in the vast and long-term wars 40K is known for.

If the Tau expand then we can see this strength that you claim exists within the Tau Empire and they will be tested and made aware of what awaits them in the wider galaxy. Their encounter with Necrons appeared to show their naivety and immaturity on the galactic scale. Maybe we shall see what they are capable of one day, but for now at least the Tau are a tiny force in the galaxy and arguably have the Imperium to thank for their existence due to it's acting as a 'buffer' between them and the rest of the galaxy. The only race that's truly aware of the Tau it seems (the IoM) don't believe they warrant their full attention and for now atleast, they're right.

I'd like to point out the Tau Empire on this map in comparison to the Imperium.

Hell, they could fit the Tau Empire into Segmentum Solar what... 5-6 times if the map were entirely flat and assuming the entire blue boxed area is the Tau Empire (which it is not).

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well kan, I think at this point it's more a debate than actual proof.

Yeaaahh...

I'd like to discuss it but we would both draw on a ton of variables. Lexi has the forces listed and it was 5 Companies involvment but it what cohesion you would have to dig deeper. I'd imagine it would be a mixed use of some sort.

Lexicanum says nothing about "5 Companies involvement".

It lists the 5 Chapters involved in the Damocles Gulf Crusade.
The Ultramarines, Black Templars, White Scars, Iron Hands, and Scythes of the Emperor.
Could they have given over a company each?
Maybe. But there's no way in hell the Marines were assigning a full Company to a campaign where there were only two Guard regiments involved.

Coalitions are implied defenders of each major Sept.

"Coalitions" are nothing of the sort. They're implied to be organizations set up for a single purpose.

A Coalition is massive.

Because a 'Coalition' is a strategic organisation consisting of 4 Commands(Fire, Earth, Water, and Air), with an Ethereal Caste representative overseeing the whole thing.

'Command', by the by, is a term for all the forces of a given caste, in a given location.
Page 23 explicitly states that "In all likelihood, the location will be a world, though it could be a planetary system".

I dunno, maybe you have a different more special Tau Empire Codex than I do, but that's what mine reads.

P22-23

A Contingent is the equal in size to a Guard Regiment.

Bwuh?
"A Contingent is not a permanent grouping, though constituent Cadres may become expert in acting together in prolonged campaigns. Such a unit is of roughly equivalent size to an Imperial Guard regiment".

A Command is several contingents. (Several Guard Regiments)

No, it's not. It's "all of the forces of a given caste, in a given location".
There's no limit as to how many contingents, Cadres, Teams, etc will be in a Command.

A Coalition is several Commands. Every single major Tau Sept has a Coalition due to the nature of Tau Expanse. Farsight for example, went renegade with his forces and was able to wage a decade long campaign and conquer several planets and colonize them. These are massive forces and the Imperium basically ran into the Dal'yth Coalition on Dal'yth prime.

No, it doesn't.
Coalitions don't happen without the four Commands acting in unison. They have to be working towards a single goal, and that goal has to be blessed by the Ethereals.

Had it been the full weight of the Tau Empire it would of been over in days for the Imperials.

I dunno about that, 2 Regiments and an unknown quantity(probably a Company[100 Marines] at best, given the normal ratio of Guard-Astartes for a campaign) of Astartes managed to crash their way into a major Sept World, and stayed there until they were recalled to deal with Hive Fleet Behemoth.

They aren't as tiny as you think, when Aun'va gave his speech, one million Fire Warriors were present at the speech alone on bended knee. The Tau have a lot more dudes than most people think.

And yet, they still don't engage in meat grinder tactics and constantly give ground in the idea of 'strategic withdrawls'.

Full might of the Tau military implies they were now fighting the actual Tau Empire in Combat. These were no longer little outposts, the Imperium was fighting a massive force, a Coalition.

"Full might of the Tau military" implies they were now fighting "the full might of the Tau military".

They'd been fighting the Tau Empire previously. Unless you're going to say that it was someone pretending to be the Tau Empire...?

The edit was to fix a broken italic tag.

I understand now. BeefCakeSoup isn't arguing this case because he's the biggest Tau fanboy ever.

He's arguing it because he represents the essence of the 40k universe.

Think about it! All of us here are fighting our hardest against his inflated ideas of Tau greatness... He's locked us all in Eternal War.

Bravo, BeefCakeSoup, bravo.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The verdict would be in the readers hands Kan.

If you believe 2 Regiments of Guard, 5 Space Marine Companies and 3 Titans required the full might of the Tau Empire to fight, I would suggest you re-read the context in which the passage is used. Otherwise, Taros would be a very comedic up-set given the size of the element being even smaller than Dal'yths defenses against forces that were even more numerous.

The Tau use Coaltions sized elements per system defense as per their codex.

As for the IoM love, I love it! Thx Coa for sharing the vids man! Nicely done! Read your FB blog, some good points made and discussed, agreed with a lot of what was reasoned.

Hey guys, to throw back into more logical talks, fact is, if the IoM had the resources to wipe out every threat at once they would use em. Mobilizing 10 Chapters isn't something you do, the Authority for such an action requires impending doom like Cadia's defense against a Black Crusade, or a mega WAAAAGH etc.

Taking on the Tau is percieved as "bleh" at most from the IoM, I don't even think the High Lords of Terra even know or care about the conflict.

This works for both, the Tau expand and protect an area of space that the Imperium really doesn't. Meanwhile, the IoM makes itself a large buffer between the Tau and nasty things like Chaos, WAAAGHs, and Nids. While they are utterly massive, they aren't able to send troops everywhere, the force needed to crush the Tau would be larger than the force sent to defend Cadia. It would never be justified or allowed in any shape or form unless the Tau began a serious conquest into Imperium space at rapid speeds.

Until a new dex comes out describing the Iron Hammer Campaign I'll just opt to wait and see. Should be fun if they base a cool campaign around it. Then 5th Edition Tau can test out their new shooty armies on IG players in a new setting that isn't played out.

Don't mention it. I love the Tau to, even being the Imperial fan. But what you said is impossible for the Tau. And Imperium don't have the recourses now to wipe everyone out, they have to wipe individually everyone - but don't have to wipe everyone together. Except Tau, 2 Regiments of Guard, 5 Space Marine Companies and 3 Titan Legion is really enough to wipe them out. The force that was send both to Democles and Taros are manor assault forces. If HLoT decide to deal with the Tau they would, but now they do not consider them a threat until Tau actually do some nasty damage to the Imperium ( like taking over major Hive World ). And right now Tau have their own problems ( Nids rising on one sept, Ork raids and new Hive Fleet attacking ) to rally army to go to conquest. And besides, Tau Empire is in peace treaty with the Imperium. These attacks was unofficial Tau commanders actions ( like Germany and Italy several years before WWII ).
My opinion is that Imperium didn't destroy the Tau because they plan to use them against Chaos one day, being the no-warp effective race and all. Inquisition knows that and I think that they have some major plan for the Tau in the future.

It's basically the Tau pop split 4 ways into Castes. (not counting Ethereals)

Saying the Air Caste gets tossed into the mix is like saying "oh hey, we will toss an Imperial Navy in too!" the Earth Caste is like saying "lets get thousands of Engineers and their entire families!" These are massive force multipliers, given what the commands are, they add to a battle more troops. Command Structure as you described in the capacity in which they serve, what a command brings is another caste to a conflict. Basically a command is saying all dudes in this sector report to high commander "x" This adds regiments to size though it could be much larger. Air Caste command in a sector could be a few thousand ships. A Coalition being the maximum use of the commands into a single force, this is what the IoM ran into at Dal'yth Prime after fighting through Hydrass and some aggroworlds.

Given that Aun'Va's speech had a ceremonial FW audience of 1 million we are lead to believe that at least 1 million FWs were at Dal'yth, no dude... simply no... There wasn't one million FWs fighting the Crusade, few hundred thousand yes, not a million though. And that is just the FWs in attendance, there was a broadcast to his empire, thousands of ships carried his word? were they there too? Against a dozen Imperial Naval ships?




As for the quote of the full military might of the Tau Empire


An Example, the full military might of America implies all assests being used in conflict. When America dedicated full military might to Iraq, it was in the capacity of Land, sea, and air. It doesn't mean America will actually use 25k Nuclear weapons, force conscription, create penal legions, turn the suburbs into garrisons, send every single naval fleet and all aircraft in it's air force. It means a 300,000 guys will be sent with a couple thousand vehicles and some naval support to ensure air supremacy.

I'm not suprised you used that so heavily out of context given your out of context quote about Gorgon...


And I don't even know what your on with some of what you are saying, you highlighted the size comparison to a guard regiment then showed how it is a size of a guard regiment. lol?

BeefCakeSoup wrote: It's basically the Tau pop split 4 ways into Castes. (not counting Ethereals)

Yes, that's how the Tau population is considered for a Command.

And if you can't see why that could mean anything at all, I don't know what to tell you.

Saying the Air Caste gets tossed into the mix is like saying "oh hey, we will toss an Imperial Navy in too!" the Earth Caste is like saying "lets get thousands of Engineers and their entire families!" These are massive force multipliers, given what the commands are, they add to a battle more troops. Command Structure as you described in the capacity in which they serve, what a command brings is another caste to a conflict.

This is one of the most vague, unclear statements I've read today.

Basically a command is saying all dudes in this sector report to high commander "x"

Actually, it's not. I posted the exact quote dealing with what a 'Command is the term of' from the Tau Empire book.
But here's the entire text from Page 23.
Command(Tau: Uash'o)
"Just as a Battle is a force assembled with a specific objective in mind, 'Command' is a term for all the forces of a given caste, in a given location. In all likelihood, the location will be a world, though it could be a planetary system. Thus all Fire caste units on the world of Nimbosa were part of 'Fire Caste Command Nimbosa', while all Air caste units there came under the responsibility of 'Air Caste Command Nimbosa'. A Command is headed by the most senior Commander in the force, who is referred to in the case of the Fire caste as a High Commander."

This adds regiments to size though it could be much larger. Air Caste command in a sector could be a few thousand ships. A Coalition being the maximum use of the commands into a single force, this is what the IoM ran into at Dal'yth Prime after fighting through Hydrass and some aggroworlds.

"Air Caste Command" in a sector could be a few thousand ships one day, a million the next.

Commands are very vague, fluid organizations. But that's what happens when you just count all the forces in a sector/planet/neighborhood.

Given that Aun'Va's speech had a ceremonial FW audience of 1 million we are lead to believe that at least 1 million FWs were at Dal'yth, no dude... simply no... There wasn't one million FWs fighting the Crusade, few hundred thousand yes, not a million though. And that is just the FWs in attendance, there was a broadcast to his empire, thousands of ships carried his word? were they there too? Against a dozen Imperial Naval ships?

So your argument now is that the Tau seriously outnumbered the Imperium?

Hm. Interesting.
Kind of changes the dynamic there, doesn't it?

As for the quote of the full military might of the Tau Empire
An Example, the full military might of America implies all assests being used in conflict. When America dedicated full military might to Iraq, it was in the capacity of Land, sea, and air. It doesn't mean America will actually use 25k Nuclear weapons, force conscription, create penal legions, turn the suburbs into garrisons, send every single naval fleet and all aircraft in it's air force. It means a 300,000 guys will be sent with a couple thousand vehicles and some naval support to ensure air supremacy.

"All assets being used in conflict" isn't likely what it means in this context. The Fire Caste can't get to a warzone without the Air Caste, and the Air/Fire Castes can't operate without the Earth Caste.
It's likely BS flavor text meant to make it seem like the Tau responded with some kind of overwhelming force to some hugely superior Imperial force(which is funny enough in itself, considering the disposition of the Damocles Crusade).

I've posted the make-up, or what we have of it, for the Damocles Crusade. It's not even equivalent to a Command of those 'outpost' worlds.
If the Tau had to respond with a 'Coalition'(which remember doesn't include the Kroot) to deal with ~50-60 Astartes, 3 Warhound Titans, and 2 Guard Regiments...
They're nowhere near the military power you're making them out to be.

I'm not surprised you used that so heavily out of context given your out of context quote about Gorgon...

Or considering your 'out of context' statement that Mantas are such fantastic Titan killers...and they've only destroyed a single Warhound Titan...
I mean, lemme tell ya. It sure seems like the Tau have evolved some serious anti-Titan capabilities when they've got confirmation of a single destroyed Warhound!

And I don't even know what your on with some of what you are saying, you highlighted the size comparison to a guard regiment then showed how it is a size of a guard regiment. lol?

Since I guess I didn't make it clear enough:

You said "A contingent is the equal in size to a Guard Regiment".
The exact quote is "A Contingent is roughly the equal in size to a Guard Regiment".
That means a Contingent can be larger, can be smaller, or can be the same.

Il confess im a huge Eldar fanboi, however, the fact that the tau do have a codex even though they are such a "minor" threat according to most means they might be destined for something greater.

The reason I say this is because I remember when the necrons were just a article in WD with a range of 4 metal models and were nothing but raiders. Then finally GW gave them the time of day and now they are the end all be all of the 40k universe next to the tyranids.

The tau are very unique and are not given enough credit because sure they might not be able to overthrow any of the other races, but the same can be told of those races as well. No way GW is going to discontinue another playable race just to prove how bad ass they are.

The Tau Empire is not considered a threat why?

Its been stated they hold a very small space in the overall galaxy. Well my reply to this is its not so small if GW decided to give them their own dedicated range and codex.
Its also been stated that if any major race was to decide to take them out seriously they would. Well I honestly doubt this because like i said before GW is not going to discontinue a army again. Which means this gives the Entire tau empire 2+ plot armor. The damocles crusade, the tyranid splinter fleet, the ork waaghs, the DE have all seriously threatened the Empire but have in the end faltered and thats what matters.

I truly believe that GW has a plan for the Tau. So far from the fluff on their tech and tactics they seem to have the most potential to become the counter balance to the IoM. GW need to just start injecting some grim darkness to the Tau and it will become the next necron in terms of uberness fluffwise

One more thing beef. I have thought about comparing Tau Empire and Imperium of Man. And I came in conclusion that it's the same thing as comparing our Earth with Galactic Empire from Star Wars. We have the better technology ( comparing to them we have nano-teck, EMP's, better ordinance and in a few year's nano suits etc. ), but in the end they only need to send several fleets and level us to the ground like bugs.

And to avoid " we can't fight because we don't have the freaking ships" I will compare System's Alliance from Mass Effect and Galactic Empire from Star Wars. System Alliance has several fleets ( with 5'th fleet as it's flag fleet ), excellent trained infantry ( Commander Shepard is an example ), Vi equipment ( similar to Tau AI ) and strong military doctrine ( for assault - destroy logistics and command centers, for defense - "the man who doesn't defend it's home defend nothing"). And still with all that power the GE would simply ( again ) send few fleets and destroy us. Because they have numbers on their side ( Imperial army troopers), advanced specialized infantry ( Imperial Stormtroopers ) and heavy vehicles ( AT-AT's). And if we add force and biotic powers we still lose because they have more Sith warriors than Alliance biotic specialists.

In any case - Tau would lose a direct war with the Imperium. And it's provocation at Nimbosa, Taros, Kronus, Kaurava and Targa do not help them.

HiddenPower wrote:Il confess im a huge Eldar fanboi, however, the fact that the tau do have a codex even though they are such a "minor" threat according to most means they might be destined for something greater.

The reason I say this is because I remember when the necrons were just a article in WD with a range of 4 metal models and were nothing but raiders. Then finally GW gave them the time of day and now they are the end all be all of the 40k universe next to the tyranids.

The 'fact that the Tau do have a Codex' is because GW wanted them to have one. By that point in time they were past doing little WD army lists, and were looking to introduce a new race anyways.

The tau are very unique and are not given enough credit because sure they might not be able to overthrow any of the other races, but the same can be told of those races as well. No way GW is going to discontinue another playable race just to prove how bad ass they are.

The Tau Empire is not considered a threat why?

Because in the grand scheme of things: they're not. They gain territory at an astonishing rate--when the Imperium's busy elsewhere.

The Tau threw the entirety of their might at the planet of Nimbosa, and were stalemated for months against a pathetically underequipped and tiny Imperial force.
It wasn't until those forces(specifically the Astartes present, who'd been really holding the line) were needed elsewhere and pulled from Nimbosa that the Tau took the planet.

Its been stated they hold a very small space in the overall galaxy.

Except they do hold a "very small space in the overall galaxy". They're barely equivalent to what falls under the overview of the various Inquisitorial orders.

Well my reply to this is its not so small if GW decided to give them their own dedicated range and codex.

GW also gave the Harlequins and Imperial Assassins "their own dedicated range and Codex" at about that same time.

Does it mean that they're huge threats to the galaxy overall? Of course not.

Its also been stated that if any major race was to decide to take them out seriously they would. Well I honestly doubt this because like i said before GW is not going to discontinue a army again. Which means this gives the Entire tau empire 2+ plot armor. The damocles crusade, the tyranid splinter fleet, the ork waaghs, the DE have all seriously threatened the Empire but have in the end faltered and thats what matters.

The "Damocles Crusade" was hardly a 'Crusade' compared to what we usually see.

The problem is that, much like a 'Command'--Crusades are extremely vague in their make-ups. A pair of armed merchant vessels and some Naval Security teams dedicated to cleaning a space station could feasibly be listed as a 'Crusade'.

I truly believe that GW has a plan for the Tau. So far from the fluff on their tech and tactics they seem to have the most potential to become the counter balance to the IoM. GW need to just start injecting some grim darkness to the Tau and it will become the next necron in terms of uberness fluffwise

So your point is that "because GW says so, the Tau are a match for the Imperium".

Yeah. No. That's not how debates in Background go.

HiddenPower wrote:
The Tau Empire is not considered a threat why?

Its been stated they hold a very small space in the overall galaxy. Well my reply to this is its not so small if GW decided to give them their own dedicated range and codex.
Its also been stated that if any major race was to decide to take them out seriously they would. Well I honestly doubt this because like i said before GW is not going to discontinue a army again. Which means this gives the Entire tau empire 2+ plot armor. The damocles crusade, the tyranid splinter fleet, the ork waaghs, the DE have all seriously threatened the Empire but have in the end faltered and thats what matters.

I truly believe that GW has a plan for the Tau. So far from the fluff on their tech and tactics they seem to have the most potential to become the counter balance to the IoM. GW need to just start injecting some grim darkness to the Tau and it will become the next necron in terms of uberness fluffwise

Tau a threat? Macragge has a population that outnumber entire Tau military force, twice. And of course everyone else fails against them when they are defending 16 planetary systems, if IoM is defending only Segmentum Solar and Cadia you think that they would ever lose? AS for GW plans, it is more realistic that they will give Tau a few more units ( just to earn more money ) and they will present year another alien race or secret Imperial organization.
And let's bet that in the end GW will give the Imperium something to fight against Necrons only to hold balance between races of 40k. Tau will never advance beyond their small empire, because there is only war and lot of miniatures to buy.

I think that if the Imperium truely tried top oust the Tau it would end up like what happened to Iraq in 1991. The American sent in two tank groups of 9 M1A1 and 4 scout tanks each. This ousted 5 Republican GUard Regiments, including Tc-72 tanks, one of the best available to the world. The American literally lost 0 tanks, 1 trooper was killed when he stuck his head out of a turret when under fire. This is what will happen when the Adeptus Astartes get deployed against them in force. The tau believe in their doctrines and tech, but they only control 10 systems, this means the raw materials they use for their tech will soon run out. Doctrines are inflexible and if they encounter a tactic that hasn't been covered by their prescious doctrines they run around like headless chickens as they don't know what to do. And for all their superior tech they can't warp engines or even a narwhal or FTL dirve yet, so much for superior

Well, I'll cut to the point then Kan.

The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.

The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.

Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.

So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.

More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.

And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.

See, we could have a lopsided view too...



Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.

There are quite possibly more worlds in the Imperium than there are members of the Tau race. Millions of casualties are more than acceptable for such a vast armed force, however, that grimdark aspect of the guard is often not borne out in the fluff (especially the BL books).

You can have all the fancy weapons you want, but you are still going to run out of shots before you have killed even a tiny percentage of the Imperial Guard.

beigeknight wrote:The entire galaxy is at war. So.....the orks won.

Um... doesn't this mean Korne won?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well, I'll cut to the point then Kan.

The single largest asset the IoM has is the guard.

Wrong.
The 'single largest asset the Imperium of Man' has is they outnumber everyone out there, barring the Orks.

The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.

Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrifice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.

By 'low standards', it doesn't matter that you've got millions dead--when you've got billions more waiting.

So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.

A 'Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield' when he's facing the Astartes.
However, those Astartes climb out of the wreck pretty much unscathed and level the Fire Warrior and his entire supporting squad.

A 'Guardsman has to pray his lasgun doesn't just tickle an Ork Boy', but so does a Tau Fire Warrior.
Orks don't die easy. Period.

More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim.

Which is why you use indirect fire artillery, orbital strikes/drops, or aerial assets to pound the target into suppression while you advance.
Guess which side has more of those at their disposal?

Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.

So your argument is "railguns"(anti-armor weapons) are effective against Guardsmen?
Brilliant!
Maybe the Guard should start using Lascannons on Fire Warrior teams, slice entire teams in half with a single beam.

And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.

Railguns can only hit so many tanks at once. There's a reason there's no "penetrating shot" rule on railguns in 40k.

Even the lightest armor out there is too thick for it to work.

See, we could have a lopsided view too...

You've pretty much already proven you've got that down, in spades.

Just don't be surprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.

Just don't be surprised when the Tyranids are gone that your precious little Empire gets overrun in a month by my 'precious decaying Imperium'.

The problem is Mr Soup, that's simply speculation. And hugely one-sided speculation at that.
The IG is the Imperium's main fighting force, but it's not the only one and if they were as poor as you make out then they wouldn't have such a decisive effect in battles and actually be able to hold their own. Railgun > Lascannon. Pulse rifle > lasgun. However, then there's the vast array of other weapons they can bring to bear, be it arguably the best tanks in 40K, artillery, innumerable regiments of soldiers, psykers, air cavalry, TITANS and more.

You seem to massively discredit the numbers the Imperial Guard can bring to bear. The ability of the Guard in warfare has been proven time and time again and unlike the Tau, they can afford such wars of attrition. They can provide tanks alone to outnumber the Tau who even then don't have enough firepower to stop.

Then there's the Space Marines, against whom the Tau have a horrid combat record and struggle to match, in any way.

The guard don't fight alone.

Nonetheless, most of what you're saying about the Tau's fighting capacity is simple speculation as they've haven't been recording fighting in such a capacity or size. The Tau can't afford a war of attrition, which the Imperium can. You assume the Tau are military genius' whilst the entirety of the IoM are bumbling morons who do little more than throw stones. The fact is, the Tau haven't proven themselves in conflict like the Imperium and other races have and what you're saying is massively biased speculation.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well, I'll cut to the point then Kan.

The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.

The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.

Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.

So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.

More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.

And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.

See, we could have a lopsided view too...



Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.

LOL, IG are the lowest of the low in IoM army. So what they out number Tau a million to one. Tell you what find a hive of a million ant or bees or any swarming bug, then come tell us how you faired.

Soupy, I can't be bothered trawling through your post telling you exactly how you're wrong, but there's one bit that's spectacularly wrong.

Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics

Slower minded? The Tau have all that technology, yet Fire Warriors shoot only as well as a Guardsman, plus humans definetly have better reaction times (this has been confirmed a few times).

Corruptable? Tau are too. LESS corruptable, yes, but not totally immune.

Worthless armour? Well, obviously it's going to be lower quality when you need to outfit so many more people.

Bad rifles? Same deal as the armour.

Horrible tanks? So that's why Leman Russes can run on any fuel you can fill it with, pracitcally tap-dance around any other tank, and are some of the strongest armour available.

Terrible tactics? It's not terrible at all. They're simply playing to their strength. If they have millions of disposable troops, they can totally afford to run wave after wave of conscripts at the enemy line, if it gets the job done.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.

Just to focus on this briefly. In what way are Humans slower minded than Tau? Do you have a source? They are corruptible, and so are the Tau. Their armour is useful, albeit it doesn't do that well against Pulse Rifles, true. Lasguns are sufficient for what they're used for. They're not the best weapon, but they can put down Fire Warriors. Their tanks are extremely efficient. I daresay a Leman Russ will penetrate a Hammerhead Tank most of the time. Not to mention Baneblades and other Superheavies. Terrible tactics? Tell that to Creed and Yarrick, who are both said to be amazing strategists and tacticans. There are some bad generals, but assuming that that's representative of all of them is wrong. Their kill-death ratio varies massively depending on their foe, obviously. A massive fortress protected by void shields? Sure, they'll take heavy losses. A load of Orks charging across an open field without great support weapons? The ratio changes rather sharply. They haven't advanced significantly technologically, yet they continue to face off against myriad threats and xeno empires. They must be doing something right. Those generals are not all generals, and in some circumstances, they're tactics are necessary (time can be as vital a resource as manpower).

Oh, too late.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well, I'll cut to the point then Kan.

The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.

The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.

Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.

So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.

More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.

And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.

See, we could have a lopsided view too...



Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.

My Fanboi detector has overloaded. Beef you are very , very ignorant . You just can't accept that the Tau could be defeted by the Imperials and are the ultimate super ultra amzing race that can't be beaten.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.

When did the Tau out number the Imeprial Guard?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.

Lasgun - The most mass produced, reliable firearm in the eintire galaxy, Pulse Rifles - better yes but the raw materials for them will run out long before lasguns producition dips slightly.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.

If they are more prelavent then why can they not travel a reativly short warp jump yet????
Fire Warriors also cannot blow up a chimera, the primary guard APC. They just have to sit and watch 5 embarked troops adn 2-3 mounted weapons cut them down.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.

You assume that every commander uses the exact same tactics, that every regiment is identical. This is about as far from the truth as you can get, the shear variety of troopers the Guard could throw at you is staggering

BeefCakeSoup wrote:And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.

Have you seen how durable Leman Russ are? Have you seen how fast Land Speeders are? Have you seen how accurate Drop Pods are? Evidently not.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.

The imeoriu is not decaying as bad as you believ it is. True Orks and DE and 'crons adn taint will always be interior problems yet we have an uncountable population each one willing to die for the Emperor. Don't even dare bring out the 'traitor' troopers arguments. These were fresh-faced PDF troopers with very little training and no experience and were chucked into a hellish battle with Xenos. They were broken mentally adn were probaly suffering heavily form PTSD and were given the option join us or die. The only reason we keep you alive so we have large supply of fish and chicken for our brave boys on Cadia

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The single largest assest the IoM has is the guard.

The guard is garbage in every capacity to the Tau.

Slower minded, corruptable, worthless armor, bad rifles, horrible tanks, terrible tactics, a horrendous K Ratio, and hasn't advanced in thousands of years in any technological way, shape or form. They have generals that sacrafice entire regiments and often accept millions dead as a success. By low standards, they are bad.

So simply put, they have already won because they are better than mankinds more prevelant force. A Fire Warrior blows up razorbacks on a battlefield while a guardsman has to prey his lasgun doesn't just tickle an ork boy.

More men to shoot? No good when the target is shooting you from farther than you can aim. Maybe the body charge will work? I wouldn't want to be in the thousandth row back from the front when railshots start ripping down columns.

And you would have to shoot me before I'd climb into any armor on it's way to fight Tau. Being sucked out of a golf ball sized hole and sprayed into a pile of mist isn't on my list of stuff to do.

Just don't be suprised when that little Empire everyone picks on wipes out a massive force sent to kill them and then goes from being 1% to 5 or 10% of your precious decaying Imperium.

Ever heard about Cadians? Elysians? Terrans? Vostroyans? Preatorians?... These Regiments are the most advanced trained Guardsman in the Imperium, one Regiment could chew FW like newbies. And Lasgun is a good rifle, it's easy to handle, repair, recharge, upgrade and has a solid damage against enemy armor. And Warhammer 40000 5'th edition say that Imperial Guard has THE BEST TANKS IN THE GALAXY. One Leman Russ tank cannot be matched by ANY Xeno or Human tank out there, and you are forgetting about Baneblade that can tear down entire cities, or Basilisk - the best artillery in the galaxy. And Tau are using that special anti-tank weapon in a same manner the Imperium is using Exterminatus, and Exterminatus is one bomb that can destroy entire surface of the planet. Tau weapon is failing in comparison to that. And one more thing that the Guard has a Tau don't - courage, duty and honor. Imperial Gaurdsman are the bravest man in the galaxy, simply because they are not hiding behind the technology but using tactics, armor ordinance and massive firepower to win the day. And read "Fire and Honor" where 1 Regiment of Cadians destroy ENTIRE Tau strike force ( even kills a commander in advanced battle suit ), so don't be surprise if several Regiments of trained and good equiped Guardsman destroy an entire Tau sept military force

Chaos is allways going to win, but then it dies out like a fire burns itself out so technicaly chaos only wins when it fighting.

Just Dave wrote:The problem is Mr Soup, that's simply speculation. And hugely one-sided speculation at that.
The IG is the Imperium's main fighting force, but it's not the only one and if they were as poor as you make out then they wouldn't have such a decisive effect in battles and actually be able to hold their own. Railgun > Lascannon. Pulse rifle > lasgun. However, then there's the vast array of other weapons they can bring to bear, be it arguably the best tanks in 40K, artillery, innumerable regiments of soldiers, psykers, air cavalry, TITANS and more.

You seem to massively discredit the numbers the Imperial Guard can bring to bear. The ability of the Guard in warfare has been proven time and time again and unlike the Tau, they can afford such wars of attrition. They can provide tanks alone to outnumber the Tau who even then don't have enough firepower to stop.

Then there's the Space Marines, against whom the Tau have a horrid combat record and struggle to match, in any way.

The guard don't fight alone.

Nonetheless, most of what you're saying about the Tau's fighting capacity is simple speculation as they've haven't been recording fighting in such a capacity or size. The Tau can't afford a war of attrition, which the Imperium can. You assume the Tau are military genius' whilst the entirety of the IoM are bumbling morons who do little more than throw stones. The fact is, the Tau haven't proven themselves in conflict like the Imperium and other races have and what you're saying is massively biased speculation.

Mr. Just Dave, you are a very reasonable poster. You have given logical reasons supporting what you are saying. granted you aren't 100% fair, but you are certainly giving the fairest application of truth when compared to Commisar Kan. Not a dig, but compliment Kan, you could make a guard defeat look like a sacred battle, and thats what debating fluff is really about in a lot of ways.

Just Dave, if we fairly applied the fact that Tau haven't been battle tested, we would have to look at their capability in war. They can't afford massive losses, but the thing is, they seldom take large military losses. Sure thay have lost forces, but not akin to 10 million dead here and there in a campaign (troops).

Taros shows how Tau play against a powerful military, they cut logistics, sway the people, hold key positions and win the fight. They are masters of warfare and know how to outmanuever and defeat many many many times their numbers. So the power of numbers runs into a wall against them. Debating that the numbers are limitless or near limitless only runs that discussion in circles.

The Guard has proven countless times it's potential to win against many foes, but against Tau they don't have such a great record. Why not? Main reason I've heard so far is they don't want too. What it really is, is that the Imperium can barely send anything to fight the Tau. Galactic frontlines stretch even the biggest empires thin. Hell, they had to recall the Crusade they sent after nids rolled up. They simply have a hard time doing anything serious. When they do send something large enough we will see how a large force does against a specialized force.

My bet is the Imperium will slog through, get bogged down, crush a few things, get worn out and quit. Pretty much, that's how the Imperium always fights Tau. Space Marines have a better track record, but being such a limited force on a galactic scale, waging a campaign with them in any large numbers would be high risk to other fronts.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:get worn out and quit.

Right, so you have no idea how the Imperial Guard fight.

PROTIP: They're in their element with a war of attrition. They WILL outlast the opponent.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Well kan, I think at this point it's more a debate than actual proof.

I'd like to discuss it but we would both draw on a ton of variables. Lexi has the forces listed and it was 5 Companies involvment but it what cohesion you would have to dig deeper. I'd imagine it would be a mixed use of some sort.

Coalitions are implied defenders of each major Sept.

A Coalition is massive.

P22-23

A Contigent is the equal in size to a Guard Regiment.

A Command is several contingents. (Several Guard Regiments)

A Coalition is several Commands. Every single major Tau Sept has a Coalition due to the nature of Tau Expanse. Farsight for example, went renegade with his forces and was able to wage a decade long campaign and conquer several planets and colonize them. These are massive forces and the Imperium basically ran into the Dal'yth Coalition on Dal'yth prime.

Had it been the full weight of the Tau Empire it would of been over in days for the Imperials.

They aren't as tiny as you think, when Aun'va gave his speech, one million Fire Warriors were present at the speech alone on bended knee. The Tau have a lot more dudes than most people think.

Full might of the Tau military implies they were now fighting the actual Tau Empire in Combat. These were no longer little outposts, the Imperium was fighting a massive force, a Coalition.

Omg fanboy here.
Dude the imperium would slaughter the Tau, have you read any of the books?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Mr. Just Dave, you are a very reasonable poster. You have given logical reasons supporting what you are saying. granted you aren't 100% fair, but you are certainly giving the fairest application of truth when compared to Commisar Kan. Not a dig, but compliment Kan, you could make a guard defeat look like a sacred battle, and thats what debating fluff is really about in a lot of ways.

Plus, even a Guard defeat is still a win for all intents.

I mean hey, they get martyrs.

Just Dave, if we fairly applied the fact that Tau haven't been battle tested, we would have to look at their capability in war. They can't afford massive losses, but the thing is, they seldom take large military losses. Sure thay have lost forces, but not akin to 10 million dead here and there in a campaign (troops).

Taros they deployed roughly 6000-8000 Fire Warriors.
They lost around 5000.

That's definitely "large military losses".

Taros shows how Tau play against a powerful military, they cut logistics, sway the people, hold key positions and win the fight. They are masters of warfare and know how to outmanuever and defeat many many many times their numbers. So the power of numbers runs into a wall against them. Debating that the numbers are limitless or near limitless only runs that discussion in circles.

Taros showed that the Tau could sway the people and commit a harassment campaign against a military force that was unsupplied for the environment they had to contend with and spread across a huge area.

That's nothing really groundbreaking.

The Guard has proven countless times its potential to win against many foes, but against Tau they don't have such a great record. Why not? Main reason I've heard so far is they don't want to.

"The Guard" has sent very little of its actual might against the Tau.

What it really is, is that the Imperium can barely send anything to fight the Tau. Galactic frontlines stretch even the biggest empires thin.

Yeahhh...
It's more that right now, they're less worried about the military 'might' of the Tau and more worried about the idealism that the Tau are trying to spread.

There's more Inquisitors operating along the Tau borders than there are Guard regiments.

Hell, they had to recall the Crusade they sent after nids rolled up.

They recalled the 'Crusade'(it still makes me laugh calling it that) because the biggest Hive Fleet yet rolled up.

They simply have a hard time doing anything serious. When they do send something large enough we will see how a large force does against a specialized force.

Deathwatch has a few such examples of 'how a large force does against a specialized force'.

The Imperium crushed the Tau and effectively quarantined them within their holdings. Some Tau get out and start shenanigans, but the Imperium responds by assassinating Ethereals and causing havoc.

My bet is the Imperium will slog through, get bogged down, crush a few things, get worn out and quit. Pretty much, that's how the Imperium always fights Tau.

The Imperium has always fought Tau while being vastly outnumbered and ill-prepared.
When those two factors are taken away, the Tau get crushed despite all their vaunted technology.

Space Marines have a better track record, but being such a limited force on a galactic scale, waging a campaign with them in any large numbers would be high risk to other fronts.

Space Marines have a better track record because they're not engaging in a whole campaign. They're being employed the way they should be: surgical strikes targeting specific positions.

If the Elysians had been employed in such a way rather than taking and holding a water treatment plant in the middle of nowhere, the campaign likely would have swung very differently.

Cerebrium wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:get worn out and quit.

Right, so you have no idea how the Imperial Guard fight.

PROTIP: They're in their element with a war of attrition. They WILL outlast the opponent.

Taros they didn't.

DGC they didn't.

Against Tau they don't have a line to hold. Tau don't wage a war of constant losses. Turns out, that's a bad way to win wars. Emperor of Mankind agreed, that's why he built massive Legions of Elite Infantry called Space Marines to do the heavy lifting. IG are great at holding out, in some cases the less than worthless ones can actually be really good troops. Too bad their leadership is almost always torn into factions between Naval, Guard, Inquistion, and Astartes ambition. What happens then, is a bunch of Elysians get left hung out to dry while bad leadership lets them all die. Thats a great read btw. Love the emphasis on the Guard staying power as they retreated offworld against a bunch of rebel humans and some fish people.

Of course we see "their leadership torn into factions" when it comes to the campaign books.

It's a great read.