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ChocolateGork wrote:I think the elven stature is right. Better than most elves that look identical to humans but with pointy ears and longer lifespans.

I'd rather have the Elven warriors that have proportions that make them not look like anorexic supermodels who can fall through a crack in the floor but trained warriors.

It's kind of the same issue that I have with the people who constantly say that Conan the Barbarian is the same proportions and a perfect match for Arnold. It's stated time and time again in the novels that Conan had the look of a "panther" to him. All sinewy muscle, not bodybuilder bulk.

ChocolateGork wrote:I want a ZOID HALFTRACK MUTANT BABY!

It would be hilarious to have mutant screaming zoid tank baby things dragging themselves around filled with dudes.

As for the practical application of such thing. The front legs and the tracks combined could make it maneuverable over harsh terrain. The front provides close combat power and the ability to gain footholds in terrain and gives it an element of fear.
The half track part carry's troops.

But its really weird regardless. Although ORIGINAL

I'm at work, so I can't see the pic, but from what I've heard about thundercats, zoids, and half-tracks, I can't help but think of this:




I'm interested in the idea of a Thundercats-style army, maybe with air support from the Silverhawks and marine/SEAL teams loaned out from Tigersharks. Pure awesome.

The human factions can be based on the Centurions property. Run with it Mantic, run!!

So its impossible to believe that a very magical race couldn't posses any strength without heavy muscle mass?
Their stature has nothing to do with them being trained warriors or not.

Its quite possible that they just build muscle...You know..cause they aren't just pointy humans.

ChocolateGork wrote:So its impossible to believe that a very magical race couldn't posses any strength without heavy muscle mass?
Their stature has nothing to do with them being trained warriors or not.

It's impossible to believe that a very magical race, which depicted in their own artwork, looks very similar to humans is when expressed in model form looking like a silly skit.

Its quite possible that they just build muscle...You know..cause they aren't just pointy humans.

I don't see why you keep harping on this "pointy humans" bit.
Look at the art for GW's elves when they're out of their armor. They are clearly not "just pointy humans". Look at the art for D&D and the majority of the more 'accepted' elf artwork. They have a human shape, but are not simply "pointy humans". They have longer limbs, they're generally taller, they're generally lithe rather than overtly muscled, etc.

There's nothing wrong with wanting elves looking like that. What the issue is that the Elves Mantic produces are wearing full armor and still have a waistline that anorexic supermodels would kill for.

I'd like to see someone make elf models look like santa's elves, short with big heads and pom poms on their hats.. and gnomes with pointy hats and lederhosen, like you find in every worthwhile flower garden.

The thing that Mantic is missing is Legion of the Damned, by William Dietz. When I first saw those pictures from Mantic, that was one of the things I thought of.


Thing I REALLY HATE about this new game is that Alessio Calvatore has ANYTHING to do with gaming, after the bang up job that he did with his reverse Midas Touch on any army he's had anything to do with. Get rid of him, and I'll give them the time of day, otherwise, we're going to see a game along par with Starship Troopers, or Vor. The little game that should have, but was too regulated and hamstrung with B.S. for its own good. Hasn't he done enough damage to 40K? What makes him so special, anyway?

What is his base accomplishment that he brings to the table that I should let him do to another game what he did to 40K?


Nice to see such a wizbang turnout for .... uh. nothing, yet though. Would like to see some, you know... figures and some substance, before we start going up and down the firepole on these guys. Only thing we've seen so far is some basic black dress Fantasy stuff that was pretty much a bunch of Warhammer Fantasy clones. Really nothing to write home about, especially since not sending me my figure.

Necros wrote:I'd like to see someone make elf models look like santa's elves, short with big heads and pom poms on their hats.. and gnomes with pointy hats and lederhosen, like you find in every worthwhile flower garden.

Kanners
Of course GW also brilliantly adhere to the long limned svelte beings of the artwork with their bigheaded gorilla fisted pointy headed dudes, dressed in cloaks knicked from the guards in the Wizard of Oz. Awwwweee ho! Awwweeee ho!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Necros wrote:I'd like to see someone make elf models look like santa's elves, short with big heads and pom poms on their hats.. and gnomes with pointy hats and lederhosen, like you find in every worthwhile flower garden.

Kanners
Of course GW also brilliantly adhere to the long limned svelte beings of the artwork with their bigheaded gorilla fisted pointy headed dudes, dressed in cloaks knicked from the guards in the Wizard of Oz. Awwwweee ho! Awwweeee ho!

The majority of the "gorilla fisted pointy headed dudes" you're referring to are terrible sculpts though.
The High Elf and Dark Elf Warrior kits desperately need to be replaced. Especially when you compare them to say, the Dragon Princes, Corsairs, Phoenix Guard, White Lions, Repeater Bolt Thrower Crew, Island of Blood monopose plastics, etc.

It's not just Mantic's ultraskinny elves I have an issue with. The subpar GW line troops that we have for most of those elves aren't too great.

Wood Elf line is pretty much perfect though.

Yes new High Elves are good, and cannot complain about the quality of the IoB figures. Excellent for a starter set imho.
and on the whole I like the Wood Elves with some exceptions like Treemen.

Not familiar with Dark Elves (too scawy)

I just watched the interview with Ronnie, they have some nice new sculpts. I think it helps that the point jobs are also very nice on the new pieces. It will be very interesting to see what they release for their sci-fi range.

What is his base accomplishment that he brings to the table that I should let him do to another game what he did to 40K?


Yeah all he did was make the best edition of 40k the most popular wargame in the world. Fact most people like 5th ed and think for the most part it is balanced good game. I love 5th ed it rocks! Alessio Calvatore had much street cred from this wargamer.

As for people saying that the KOW minis are not that great I don't get it!?! They look Great to me what's wrong with this

MDizzle wrote:
What is his base accomplishment that he brings to the table that I should let him do to another game what he did to 40K?
Yeah all he did was make the best edition of 40k the most popular wargame in the world. Fact most people like 5th ed and think for the most part it is balanced good game. I love 5th ed it rocks! Alessio Calvatore had much street cred from this wargamer.

He's also responsible for a large amount of the attempt to 'homogenize' the 40k codices that resulted in C: Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines.

He's also responsible for the WHFB Armies: Skaven that was widely considered one of the most easily open abuse books at the time.

As for people saying that the KOW minis are not that great I don't get it!?! They look Great to me what's wrong with this

Nothing's wrong with that. Except it's cherry picking the 'best and most recent' model while ignoring the currently in production Elves and some of the Undead line which is less than stellar.

It's like if I were to post up a RT era Space Marine as the 'quality' of GW models today.

The Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines are not his fault. I heard an Interview with Gav Thorpe and he said that GW wanted to change tact with the books to be in line with DA and the Chaos SM. Then GW changed there minds. So to hate on him for that is a very foolish considering how great 5th ed is.

The minis look fine to me there are a lot of models in the GW range that suck balls so it all balances out in the end. Mantic makes quality minis from what I can tell.

MDizzle wrote:The Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines are not his fault. I heard an Interview with Gav Thorpe and he said that GW wanted to change tact with the books to be in line with DA and the Chaos SM. Then GW changed their minds. So to hate on him for that is a very foolish considering how great 5th ed is.

Yes, and Alessio was the biggest member "wanting to change tact with the books to be in line with DA and Chaos Space Marines".
So, to say they're 'not his fault' is ridiculous.

The minis look fine to me there are a lot of models in the GW range that suck balls so it all balances out in the end. Mantic makes quality minis from what I can tell.

And that's the rub. There's a huge range of GW models. The stinkers are, as of this moment, fairly few and far between.

Mantic has an entire range that is stinkers. Not only that, but it's a 'flagship' range in that Elves are going to be a situation where not much leeway will be given for weirdness.

The Undead look great, the only duff models they've released for that line have been the recent vampire knights. Everything else looks great.

Wish they wouldn't hire Gary Morley to make some of their metals, most of the stuff he's made for mantic has been terrible (Elven cavalry, drakon riders).

Whereas everything by Kev White (Dwarf characters, Elf Palace guard) looks fantastic. I'm not sure who sculpted the awesome new orc characters, but judging by the style it's someone from Europe, the sculpts look very Rackham-like.

Bob Naismith sculpts all the plastics, and while his initial set of elves weren't very good (the sculpts are excellent, but he had a poor set of concept art to work from) I'd say overall he has improved a whole lot over the 2 years that mantic has been around for.

The Undead and Orcs are a quality set of models.

Interesting. Looking forward to seeing some minis. The 8 races part is interesting as well.

scarletsquig wrote:
Bob Naismith sculpts all the plastics, and while his initial set of elves weren't very good (the sculpts are excellent, but he had a poor set of concept art to work from) I'd say overall he has improved a whole lot over the 2 years that mantic has been around for.

Naismith was also responsible for the naff Starship Troopers plastic MI, Skinnies, and many of the naff Arachnid models.

Honestly, the concept art that we've seen for Mantic's Elves is pretty damn good. I'm not sure why you're saying it's the concept art when Naismith had a not-so-great track record for the time.

Do you seriously want to sit there and say that Dark Angels and Chaos Space marines is... Good?

They were his fault. AND he was the one that brought about the unraveling of the game WITH 5th Edition. "True Line of site" is easily one of the weakest things to write home about and try to spin as something.... worth the discussion. Vehicle combat is still broken, we see the game still losing its steam on every front. Fantasy? Dude, seriously do you really want me to pull fantasy apart? For starters; How about What happened to fantasy? No one plays it anymore.

Those.. uh... Miniatures that you are spouting on about... Do you really stand by that same cookie cutter range of guys? The only thing they bring to the table is cheaper cost. in all, they are the same figures, with a little variation on a theme. Generic in almost the same way as black and white boxed with stenciled letters on them. "Elf" , "Ghoul", In as much as, "What about something to distinguish it from the countless other games that are out there?"

How exactly is that guy you have pictured there any different then-

When I look at GW vs Mantic THIS comes to mind:

GW's skeleton warriors for the TK army:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1740282a_99120207003_SkeletonWarriorsNEW1_873x627.jpg

Mantic's Skeleton Warriors from their Undead Army:
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Undead/Core-Units-Regiments/Product/Undead-Skeleton-Regiment-20-Figures.html#

I know GW made better warriors for their VC line, but the TK line still looks like the crappy old skele design GW has had for the better part of the past 15 years.


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There is clearly an improvement. Mantic is working in a far, far tighter budget than GW, and their skeletons are already on par or far better than GW's. Give them time to release later sculpts and there will be even better looking minis for less cash.

Comparison shot of Mantic and GW. Maybe it's me.... I just don't see the difference.

Grot 6 wrote:Do you seriously want to sit there and say that Dark Angels and Chaos Space marines is... Good?

They were his fault. AND he was the one that brought about the unraveling of the game WITH 5th Edition. "True Line of site" is easily one of the weakest things to write home about and try to spin as something.... worth the discussion. Vehicle combat is still broken, we see the game still losing its steam on every front. Fantasy? Dude, seriously do you really want me to pull fantasy apart? For starters; How about What happened to fantasy? No one plays it anymore.

While that may be true....have you read the rules for BoW? What do you think about them? Doesn't the fact that they are free and require no investment from your side (including the need to buy Mantic miniatures to play them) distinguish them positively from GW's rulesets?

Why not Judge the guy based on his latest "song".......after all, that song is costing you nothing to listen to it...

IIRC Mike McVey was involved with some of the Orcs possibly the command group.

Not sure how helpful tit tatting is between the two companies. They both do good bad and indifferent sculpts.
Personally I thought the Mantic Revenant Knights were okay. Not in the same leaugue as Gamezones Mournful Knights
http://gamezoneminiatures.de/sidebar/ritter-der-verdammten-i.html
but for the price Mantics are good enough for me.

We all have individual needs, aspirations and wallets, before even mentioning taste. It is just good to have the options as far as I am concerned.

I read through them, but my milks already been soured by Alisso far too many times to drink the kool-aid.

Though I do see that we're talking straight up about the value of the game based on price. I think the rules should be directly shown to the range of GW players out there as to what this guy can do with proper motivation, and that people should sit back and ask the same thing I have, which is- Why did he so called "Write" such easy rules on one and, and take the absolute piss on the other one? And does him doing it walking out the door serve as selfserving motivation, knowing full well that he took a dump on the game, so people would leave and go to mantic? Did he do what he did to GW's game on purpose?


THATS what I have to think about this guy, seeing as he left with a less then steller track record, don't ask me to take what he says at face value.

Id love a large scale wargame other than 40k. I mean I love the fluff of 40k and narrative games are fun too, but I can't say I love the lack of respect GW shows.

5th ed is also totally geared towards buying vehicles to make them the most profit per point they can. Competition breeds innovation.. monopolies grow stale (and raise prices!). Also whats the purpose of showcasing Mantics horrible elves? Yes they're bad we know that.. their models SINCE them are great or at least on par with GW. I mean come on, might as well start linking some of the awful GW models.. like all HUGE hand skaven models of 5th ed (Either way, price per value is much higher)

Thats like saying "Dont buy new DE because look at the horrible catachans!" .. Everyone has bad models

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:TBH I am currently liking the idea of having minis I can use for several games for extra value, and rules sets for which I can choose from my existing collection

More people need to think like this. There is no reason not use figures in multiple games. This is especially easy in fantasy where most fantasy armies revolve around fairly standard motifs. Historical players switch rulesets all the time, why don't fantasy players.

With a standard Mantic or GW army, you could play

Warhammer
Kings of War
HoTT
Dark Storme
Warlord
Rally Round the King
Fantasy Rules
Chronopia
Crucible

and more!

Mantic's stuff is hit or miss for the most part. I hate their dwarves and their elves, but I love their undead, especially their Ghouls and Zombies, which while lacking in variety per sprue, are great kits for quickly and cheapishy cranking out hordes of plastic undead.

(this post is sponsored by a zombie lover who won 120 zombies from Mantic )

All I can say is: At this point, Mantic's customer appreciation is already better than GW's. They listen to their players, are willing to listen to their players to the extent that they are forging the rules based on real player feedback, and they regularly do largish giveaways and answer questions. GW USED to be like that...used to be. Isn't now.

Grot 6 wrote:I read through them, but my milks already been soured by Alisso far too many times to drink the kool-aid.

Though I do see that we're talking straight up about the value of the game based on price. I think the rules should be directly shown to the range of GW players out there as to what this guy can do with proper motivation, and that people should sit back and ask the same thing I have, which is- Why did he so called "Write" such easy rules on one and, and take the absolute piss on the other one? And does him doing it walking out the door serve as selfserving motivation, knowing full well that he took a dump on the game, so people would leave and go to mantic? Did he do what he did to GW's game on purpose?


THATS what I have to think about this guy, seeing as he left with a less then steller track record, don't ask me to take what he says at face value.

Yes, but that assumes that rules and products at GW are produced in a vacuum.....my point being, Alessio (spelling?) may have written the rules, but it would have been down to the GW team of play-testers and editors to give the final product the go ahead.....basically, it would have been a team decision to move forward (and yes, I reserve the same arguments in defence of Mat(t) Ward!)

Now, if GW (as a company) didn't have any of these functions in place (as has been suggested of the Black Library and it's lack of "editotial" staff) then I'm sorry, I blame GW it's up to the company to ensure it puts out what it's customers want. I think it's unfair to denounce one guy because his interpretation of a fantasy setting and how you interact with it differs from your own (again, I refer to Mat Ward also). It's up to the company to pull these guys into line and guide them on how the I.P. should be managed.

To me, the difference in output from Alessio is clear, obviously Mantic (as a company) are giving Alessio a lot more direction then GW did.

Grot 6 you are think the DA codex and the chaos suck but if you listen to people like Gave Thorpe the co writer of the Chaos book he says GW asked them to scale these books the way the did as an over all arch of how they wanted codices to be balanced. Then GW changed there minds so it make those books look really bad.

Go ahead and Poo Poo True line of sight it's a lot better than infinitely tall forests and crap like that. The fact is people like 5th ed it's a great rule set and the most popular rule set in the world.

lasgunpacker wrote:

And this is hardly the first "challenge" to 40k. Remember Void? Remember VOR? Remember Warzone?

All "challenges" that did not make it.

I do...