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I applaud Mantic for being brave enough to jump into GW territory. They deinately as Delephont points out decided on a clear direction to allow affordable gaming in the view that games of the size of GW games is getting to stupid heights of expense. I am not sure I agree that the models are not as nice, obviously they are produced with a much tighter budget in mind, also the slight change in style actually makes them look a bit cheaper (not sure how to explain that better but I know what I mean)

The large scale wargame needs more companies to spread out the market share and it will only be better for it, this will promote better prices, better products and more innovative gaming systems. All businesses need healthy competition to really bring out the best in themselves

lukewild1982 wrote:Has anyone actually played Kings of War, i never see it discussed apart from the model range. Are the Mantic rules any good??

http://www.warseer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=165&order=desc

There's some Bat Reps, though I think they are on pages 2 and 3 now. Good discussions as well in some places.

Necros wrote:I hate to sound like a fat GW fanboy, but if I am I guess I am. Something about Mantic just bugs me.. I dunno, it just seems like they're just there to cash in on people upset with GW's prices so they make a cheaper alternative with models that in most cases aren't even half as nice looking.

I guess since I don't buy stuff that often, I expect a higher quality product and I don't mind paying more for getting exactly what I want. I'd rather do that than get what looks like a cheap knock off. So, hopefully Mantic can put together something really good & original with awesome fluff and models.. there's a first time for everything. I'll still be watching and hoping, but not holding my breath.

*shrugs* Not everything is about prices. I much prefer the KoW rules to WHF because I don't need a small library to play KoW and I get little satisfaction out of unnecessary special rules (Blood Claw Berserk Charge or the War Sphinx's Thundercrush to name one from each system).

TBH the second paragraph does sound a bit fanboyish because GW produce bad rules and bad fluff (don't get me wrong, I like both 40k and WHF and I think they produce good stuff too), but they've had over 25 years. There's also a limit on how much you can "innovate" a fantasy background. (IMO Mantic's Elf & Undead fluff = very stereotypical, Dwarf & Abyssal fluff = not so stereotypical, not up on the Orc stuff yet).

I'll settle for getting involved in something that has a lot of potential IMO

I think some people are missing the point here. Mantic were producing mini's before all the furore about the GW pricing (I think!).

Certainly before GW introduced ANOTHER price hike just a few weeks ago. The Mantic mini's themselves are nice, perfectly acceptable IMO. They are not a 'poor mans GW' at all, in fact they have come along at just the right time. The fact that there is an alternative to WHFB, and it's a viable one, just goes to show that in the pantheon of wargaming GW are not going to have it all thier own way.

And the fact that two of the greatest games designers and rules writers that GW had (Jake Thornton and Alessio Cavatore) are behind the company does not surprise me in the least. Seems like they knew where GW were heading, and jumped ship at the right time. Mantic produce rules and mini's of the sort that GW were producing 5 years ago, back when GW were still a company that didn't treat it's customers like simpletons.....

Long may it continue!

Haven't played for a while, but like Baragash I thought it refreshing not to have head stuck in rulebooks/people hanging around etc.

The other thing is it is not necessarily either WHFB or KoW.
One is allowed to play both, and have a change of pace.

The Advantage of Mantics is they have realised that to have bigger battles it needs to be affordable. Whereas GW take the opposite view of making games bigger with cheaper points per model as a means of increasing revenue

Padre wrote:If the ruleset, miniatures and accessories are of good quality...

This will most likely be the competition that GW needs...or one of the final nails in GW's coffin.

I hope Mantic is successful and puts out a good game with cool models.

That said, unless I can easily use my 40K models with their ruleset or easily use their models in 40K games, I don't see it as competition.

Didn't mean to sound so harsh, I'm just hoping they can put together something good.. I do like what they're doing, maybe since all fantasy is all pretty much the same all around I haven't seen anything different or compelling enough in their fantasy range. So hopefully their sci fi stuff will be a lot better. I'm hoping they don't just try and copy GW though and just do Humans, Evil Humans, Space Elves, Space Dwarves, Space Undead, Space Anime, Space Bugs from Alien, etc... I wouldn't mind seeing a Predator ripoff army though

One of the things I really liked about Warmahordes was they're a great GW alternative, but with their own different theme with the steampunk thing and all.

Right now though I think if I were to get into a new sci fi game I'd be going with Infinity just based on their models so far.

That seems to be the Mantic ethos, as with KoW you can easily use your GW minis.

I assume the same will hold true for Warpath

It would be nice if they made slightly closer to "true scale" vehicles though.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:That seems to be the Mantic ethos, as with KoW you can easily use your GW minis.

I assume the same will hold true for Warpath

Well, we do know for sure that the scale will be the same (28mm), as for interchangeability, there will be a point where they can't be too similar in look and feel (for legal reasons), and they shouldn't be too similar.

I think the worst thing that could happen is if Mantic were to specifically ape 40k's styling: that really would make it seem like a knock-off game. I would much rather they attempt to develop their own style (possibly going away from GW by making humanoid figures that don't look like they were sculpted by someone totally unfamiliar with human anatomy).

Necros wrote:I'm hoping they don't just try and copy GW though and just do Humans, Evil Humans, Space Elves, Space Dwarves, Space Undead, Space Anime, Space Bugs from Alien, etc...

I admit the "Thundercats vs Spacedwarves" concepts we've seen so far are a bit off-putting. Still, the Humvee has me hoping for a moderately believeable sci-fi army that strays away from the spacefaring-WWI-nazi-communists-in-trenchcoats stereotype.

Not to mention that any competition that manages to remind GW that their turf is in no way a natural monopoly is fine in my books.

Downloaded and read all the Kings of War rules within 2 hours of finding out (be aware this is all while at work and being distracted) they were available. The rules maybe simple but hey thats not such a bad thing. The foundations for a great game are there, its simple and I could walk up to a game and no exactly what I had to do after one quick read through, not the case with GW but they have been at it a little longer (have GW actually ever got the rules right?)

Necros wrote:I'm hoping they don't just try and copy GW though and just do Humans, Evil Humans, Space Elves, Space Dwarves, Space Undead, Space Anime, Space Bugs from Alien, etc... I wouldn't mind seeing a Predator ripoff army though

Well for KoW they are apparently going with 8 "staple"/"work with WHF" races and 2 "original" ones, hopefully they will do something similar with Warpath.

I think you are correct regarding style/aesthetics Buzzsaw

Was referring more to the attitude coming from Ronnie that is more relaxed about using other ranges of models.
If I wished to have an Orc vs Dwarves KoW game I don't have Mantics figures, but there is diddly squat to stop me having that game.
It remains to be seen what the policy will be towards using GW models at KoW tournies for example.

Mantic could of course go with their own completely new games and figures with races no one has invented. But would that be a popular decision? The path they have taken has led to criticism. On the other hand there are a lot of chaps that are asking for the races that they are bringing out.

TBH I am currently liking the idea of having minis I can use for several games for extra value, and rules sets for which I can choose from my existing collection

If you want Fantasy with a whole new flavour go for Relics by Tor Games.
Wholly original and very atmospheric imho. Love the vibe the game has. I am going to buy into it at some point but hope the specificity of characters is not going to hold the game back.

Again there is nothing mutally exclusive in what Mantic is doing which is all to the good. GW need someone to push them and shake them out of the delusion that they are the Alpha and Omega of gaming.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Again there is nothing mutally exclusive in what Mantic is doing which is all to the good. GW need someone to push them and shake them out of the delusion that they are the Alpha and Omega of gaming.

I think that misrepresents GW's position. I think a lot of what they are doing is borne from the need to expand their market position, not arrogance. Their decision to focus on plastic miniatures/kits represents a huge investment, and requires significant sales - as does their policy of maintaining a string of stores across the world. They are the biggest wargaming miniatures company, but they are still a relatively small operation, and they need growth to survive. Their actions (including tackling alleged IP infringements) suggest that they are struggling to make a success of that business model. The fact that Mantic seems to be providing compeition is obviously a good thing for wargamers though. It's hard to tell how good these new models will be when we only have some preliminary sketches. A skirmish game with a strong range of (plastic) models and a streamlined game system could take a big chunk out of GW's customer base.

Well if they are going to make space bugs, they better be way better than these!

kenshin620 wrote:Well if they are going to make space bugs, they better be way better than these!

Yeah, those are to Mantic as the razorgore is to GW.

Tailgunner wrote:A skirmish game with a strong range of (plastic) models and a streamlined game system could take a big chunk out of GW's customer base.

There are loads of skirmish games out there, what I want to see is a battle game, then it might provide competition for 40k.

The issue I have is that 28mm is too large for large scale battles, but 15mm or less is too small to have much in the way of detailing on the figures (which is one of the things that I love about 28mm), yet is ideal for the kind of scale battles that 40K is trying to push.

[/space and time is destroyed]

Well I don't personally consider 40k a skirmish game, and sure beyond a certain point you need to play an Epic-equivalent game, but I that's a whole other "problem"

EDIT: one of the main problems with 40k is that the movement mechanic doesn't scale up well at all, but if there were equivalent rules with bases like WotR then it works a bit differently.

I'm really hoping to see rules/stats that are squad-based, like in KoW, not model-based like in WHF and 40k

Tailgunner wrote:
I think that misrepresents GW's position. I think a lot of what they are doing is borne from the need to expand their market position, not arrogance. Their decision to focus on plastic miniatures/kits represents a huge investment, and requires significant sales - as does their policy of maintaining a string of stores across the world. They are the biggest wargaming miniatures company, but they are still a relatively small operation, and they need growth to survive. Their actions (including tackling alleged IP infringements) suggest that they are struggling to make a success of that business model. The fact that Mantic seems to be providing compeition is obviously a good thing for wargamers though. It's hard to tell how good these new models will be when we only have some preliminary sketches. A skirmish game with a strong range of (plastic) models and a streamlined game system could take a big chunk out of GW's customer base.

Firstly the stores is a debatable issue. GW could do worse than to get rid and concentrate on production and let someone else worry about distribution of sales.
Relative is a relative term
GW are small compared to Coca-Cola. Maybe the desire to expand is a bad move. It is possible to expand beyond the market capacity.
GW's business policy is a mess as far as I can see. Partly because they (at least to me) give the impression that they consider themselves the be all and end all of gaming.
Of course that may not necessarily be the case, but they seem to make some odd decisions.

Certainly very interesting, but needless to say we need to see what the product looks like first.

agnosto wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Well if they are going to make space bugs, they better be way better than these!

Yeah, those are to Mantic as the razorgore is to GW.

I hate to say it, but GW doesn't have an entire range of 'razorgors', while Mantic does have an entire range of those Elves.

It's sad too, because it's not like Mantic can't do better. The concept art for the Elves was pretty good.

I hope it turns out good. If it does i may have found my new game.

Kanluwen wrote:I hate to say it, but GW doesn't have an entire range of 'razorgors', while Mantic does have an entire range of those Elves.

It's sad too, because it's not like Mantic can't do better. The concept art for the Elves was pretty good.

I don't like elves but Mantic's representation of the "elf" template is the right amount of weedy and willowy, just what you would expect from a fantasy race that falls over when there's a strong breeze.

The dwarves are great for rank and file and the orcs are shaping up quite nicely. They keep getting better and better with each release. Who knows, they might be awesome by the time they get to a race/faction that I care to collect.

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I hate to say it, but GW doesn't have an entire range of 'razorgors', while Mantic does have an entire range of those Elves.

It's sad too, because it's not like Mantic can't do better. The concept art for the Elves was pretty good.

I don't like elves but Mantic's representation of the "elf" template is the right amount of weedy and willowy, just what you would expect from a fantasy race that falls over when there's a strong breeze.

Weedy and willowy is not the same as being the same proportions as a Family Guy skit about Kate Moss.

I think the elven stature is right. Better than most elves that look identical to humans but with pointy ears and longer lifespans.

GW proprtions of their flagship Space Marines conform to the Golden Mean

They cost more than their weight in gold which means I can't afford them


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Totally agree Chocolate
Much prefer the LoTR fantasy range to WH tbh
But then I just don't like heroic scale very much.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I think you are correct regarding style/aesthetics Buzzsaw

Was referring more to the attitude coming from Ronnie that is more relaxed about using other ranges of models.
If I wished to have an Orc vs Dwarves KoW game I don't have Mantics figures, but there is diddly squat to stop me having that game.
It remains to be seen what the policy will be towards using GW models at KoW tournies for example.

Mantic could of course go with their own completely new games and figures with races no one has invented. But would that be a popular decision? The path they have taken has led to criticism. On the other hand there are a lot of chaps that are asking for the races that they are bringing out.

TBH I am currently liking the idea of having minis I can use for several games for extra value, and rules sets for which I can choose from my existing collection

If you want Fantasy with a whole new flavour go for Relics by Tor Games.
Wholly original and very atmospheric imho. Love the vibe the game has. I am going to buy into it at some point but hope the specificity of characters is not going to hold the game back.

Again there is nothing mutally exclusive in what Mantic is doing which is all to the good. GW need someone to push them and shake them out of the delusion that they are the Alpha and Omega of gaming.

ChocolateGork wrote:I think the elven stature is right. Better than most elves that look identical to humans but with pointy ears and longer lifespans.

I think this is an excellent point: Mantic walks a fine line, between being original (in interpretation) and alienating the core of gamers that want precisely that familiar core.

A big part of them finding success will be moving far enough away from GW's look so that you can pick up an Orc, or a Dwarf or Elf and know in a moment that it's Mantic or GW (or Reaper, so on), but at the same time it fits in with the mental perception that "yes, this is an Elf, an Orc etc." I think that they have achieved this with their Orc and Undead ranges (I'm not as familiar with their dwarf and abyssal dwarf ranges, but they seem like they might be equally impressive), I think that the concept of the elves is very good, I just wish they were a little less thin. More true-scale then wire-frame, as it were. But we have to give them some slack.

Those that are comparing them to GW must recall, Mantic is an 18 month old company, GW is 30 years old. Moreover, many criticisms of Mantic's look are rooted in the notion that their sculpts don't look really look like GW sculpts... which no one really wants them to look like.

I want a ZOID HALFTRACK MUTANT BABY!

It would be hilarious to have mutant screaming zoid tank baby things dragging themselves around filled with dudes.

As for the practical application of such thing. The front legs and the tracks combined could make it maneuverable over harsh terrain. The front provides close combat power and the ability to gain footholds in terrain and gives it an element of fear.
The half track part carry's troops.

But its really weird regardless. Although ORIGINAL

Necros wrote:
One of the things I really liked about Warmahordes was they're a great GW alternative, but with their own different theme with the steampunk thing and all.

I really agree with this. High Fantasy is all well and good, but it has been done to death. Seriously, it is in a dumpster behind an abandoned warehouse with it's briefs jammed halfway down its throat. Any new models in the genre are just working on the margins. While I don't care too much for Warmachine's over the top level of steam punk (my sword has exhaust ports on the blade!) it is a nice change of pace, and Hordes is similarly a nice variation on the normal fantasy look.

What I would really like to see (and if I decided to go model production I would aim for) is a late classical/early dark ages setting. You can get away with so much more diversity there than you can with GW's model of "Bretonians and the Empire are right next door, but don't trade armor ever" mishmash. You can easily have higher technology factions nearby lower tech factions by dint of xenophobia and distances, and even have very divergent weapons and tactics due to local preferences that have not been overcome by superior military doctrine yet. Not to mention the classical mythological beasts that still roam.

I dunno, that would get me excited. Crocodile games sort of went in that direction, but their quality and price isn't where I want it to be. A full line of affordable plastics like Mantic though, and you would really have something!