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ChocolateGork wrote:So its impossible to believe that a very magical race couldn't posses any strength without heavy muscle mass?

It doesn't matter if you can handwave it with magic, the models need to not be ugly. Making the Elves look anorexic makes them ugly.

Grot 6 wrote:Comparison shot of Mantic and GW. Maybe it's me.... I just don't see the difference.

It's you. The plastic Mantic elf has the same small waist and lizard hips that the old Dark Eldar did.

@Grot and Kanluwen

At the moment i am too exhausted to write a full fledged explanaition. But let it suffice to say that you are extremly way off regarding what really happend. A designer these days is nearly in the same way at the mercy of the top-phoobas as the normal gamers are.

And Andy, Alessio, etc. tried their best when working for GW and only after they left we really saw how good they were and how much the managment fragged up their work.

Kanluwen wrote:

MDizzle wrote:
What is his base accomplishment that he brings to the table that I should let him do to another game what he did to 40K?
Yeah all he did was make the best edition of 40k the most popular wargame in the world. Fact most people like 5th ed and think for the most part it is balanced good game. I love 5th ed it rocks! Alessio Calvatore had much street cred from this wargamer.

He's also responsible for a large amount of the attempt to 'homogenize' the 40k codices that resulted in C: Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines.

He's also responsible for the WHFB Armies: Skaven that was widely considered one of the most easily open abuse books at the time.

As for people saying that the KOW minis are not that great I don't get it!?! They look Great to me what's wrong with this

Nothing's wrong with that. Except it's cherry picking the 'best and most recent' model while ignoring the currently in production Elves and some of the Undead line which is less than stellar.

It's like if I were to post up a RT era Space Marine as the 'quality' of GW models today.

Are you freaking kidding me? they are not 2 years old with 3+ ranges already, all their work is "best and most recent", instead of them cherry picking it seems to me YOU are holding to the only questionable miniatures they ever produced, which also happen to be their firsts.

xxvaderxx wrote:Are you freaking kidding me? they are not 2 years old with 3+ ranges already, all their work is "best and most recent", instead of them cherry picking it seems to me YOU are holding to the only questionable miniatures they ever produced, which also happen to be their firsts.

How about the Drakkon riders, or the faces on the vampire cavalry, gore riders or Ax regiment, all of which were released this year or haven't even been released yet?

Delephont wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I read through them, but my milks already been soured by Alisso far too many times to drink the kool-aid.

Though I do see that we're talking straight up about the value of the game based on price. I think the rules should be directly shown to the range of GW players out there as to what this guy can do with proper motivation, and that people should sit back and ask the same thing I have, which is- Why did he so called "Write" such easy rules on one and, and take the absolute piss on the other one? And does him doing it walking out the door serve as selfserving motivation, knowing full well that he took a dump on the game, so people would leave and go to mantic? Did he do what he did to GW's game on purpose?


THATS what I have to think about this guy, seeing as he left with a less then steller track record, don't ask me to take what he says at face value.

Yes, but that assumes that rules and products at GW are produced in a vacuum.....my point being, Alessio (spelling?) may have written the rules, but it would have been down to the GW team of play-testers and editors to give the final product the go ahead.....basically, it would have been a team decision to move forward (and yes, I reserve the same arguments in defence of Mat(t) Ward!)

Now, if GW (as a company) didn't have any of these functions in place (as has been suggested of the Black Library and it's lack of "editotial" staff) then I'm sorry, I blame GW it's up to the company to ensure it puts out what it's customers want. I think it's unfair to denounce one guy because his interpretation of a fantasy setting and how you interact with it differs from your own (again, I refer to Mat Ward also). It's up to the company to pull these guys into line and guide them on how the I.P. should be managed.

To me, the difference in output from Alessio is clear, obviously Mantic (as a company) are giving Alessio a lot more direction then GW did.

Or maybe the opposite is true, maybe GW wanted 5ed that way. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Kirasu wrote: I mean I love the fluff of 40k and narrative games are fun too, but I can't say I love the lack of respect GW shows.5th ed is also totally geared towards buying vehicles to make them the most profit per point they can. Competition breeds innovation.. monopolies grow stale (and raise prices!). Also whats the purpose of showcasing Mantics horrible elves? Yes they're bad we know that.. their models SINCE them are great or at least on par with GW. I mean come on, might as well start linking some of the awful GW models.. like all HUGE hand skaven models of 5th ed (Either way, price per value is much higher)

Thats like saying "Dont buy new DE because look at the horrible catachans!" .. Everyone has bad models

Very very good points!!!

I mean, judging a company on their first release, when they have since improved?

Does anyone out there hate the entire Marine range of models... based on Captain Cortez? (the fugliest model ever!)

Bring on the competition, I say!!!

GW has, IMHO, shown their overall opinion of their customer base in the last 2 weeks to be pretty damned low.

Padre^.

loki old fart wrote:
Or maybe the opposite is true, maybe GW wanted 5ed that way. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Eh? that's what I said!

What were Warzone, Void, and VOR?

Delephont wrote:

loki old fart wrote:
Or maybe the opposite is true, maybe GW wanted 5ed that way. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Eh? that's what I said!

Now, if GW (as a company) didn't have any of these functions in place (as has been suggested of the Black Library and it's lack of "editotial" staff) then I'm sorry, I blame GW it's up to the company to ensure it puts out what it's customers want. I think it's unfair to denounce one guy because his interpretation of a fantasy setting and how you interact with it differs from your own (again, I refer to Mat Ward also). It's up to the company to pull these guys into line and guide them on how the I.P. should be managed.

To me, the difference in output from Alessio is clear, obviously Mantic (as a company) are giving Alessio a lot more direction then GW did.

No you said gw didn't control how 5ed went , and mantic may be keeping more control.
Where as I think gw maintained full control, and mantic are giving him free reign to do as he likes.

Noisy_Marine wrote:What were Warzone, Void, and VOR?

Only one I know of is Warzone, a sci fi game around the same time of 40k. Very RT like models. They even have their own set of plastic sci fi soldiers for a bargain compared to gw but only in monoposed style.

loki old fart wrote:

Delephont wrote:

loki old fart wrote:
Or maybe the opposite is true, maybe GW wanted 5ed that way. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Eh? that's what I said!

Now, if GW (as a company) didn't have any of these functions in place (as has been suggested of the Black Library and it's lack of "editotial" staff) then I'm sorry, I blame GW it's up to the company to ensure it puts out what it's customers want. I think it's unfair to denounce one guy because his interpretation of a fantasy setting and how you interact with it differs from your own (again, I refer to Mat Ward also). It's up to the company to pull these guys into line and guide them on how the I.P. should be managed.

To me, the difference in output from Alessio is clear, obviously Mantic (as a company) are giving Alessio a lot more direction then GW did.

No you said gw didn't control how 5ed went , and mantic may be keeping more control.
Where as I think gw maintained full control, and mantic are giving him free reign to do as he likes.

I see, well I was trying to kill two birds with one stone. I was suggesting (or trying to) that GW is responsible for it's products, not one designer, and if GW doesn't have the resources to ensure that designers output meets their needs, then they are still responsible

I think he did exactly as he was told to do.
GW wanted 5ED to sell more vehicle kits. and increased the size of armies to do so.

OMG LOOK AT THE SPACE MARINES!!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

lasgunpacker wrote:

And this is hardly the first "challenge" to 40k. Remember Void? Remember VOR? Remember Warzone?

All "challenges" that did not make it.

I do...

I do also. In fact I owned all of those games and still have a number of Void and Warzone figs.

I don't think KoW and Warpath and their accompanying figures are going to kill WFB and 40k. However, there are a few factos that set them apart and may help them to achieve a bit of longevity over those previously mentioned games/figure lines.

1) They are based around truely affordable figures. The games mentioned above weren't much (if any) cheaper than 40k when it came to the cost per figure. Mantic figures average between a half and a third the cost of Games Workshop with some even cheaper.
2) Mantic has a few year track record of sucess with the particular line of figures that this game is based on. Unlike the previously mentioned games whose figures were very connected to the game itself, Mantic figures sold before KoW and continue to sell in great quantity to people who aren't interested in the games. As long as the figures sell well, Mantic doesn't need anyone to play KoW.
3) Ever since GW went mostly plastic, Mantic is the only company that has been able to suceeding strongly in the plastic Fantasy market. Their are lots of companies making minatures that are cheaper than GW, but for people wanting mass fantasy armies cheaply, Mantic is really the only game in town.

Noisy_Marine wrote:
OMG LOOK AT THE SPACE MARINES!!

Well not really, those are the trenchers. Basically good ol gas masked human soldiers digging trenches in the future (sound familiar?)

Noisy_Marine wrote:What were Warzone, Void, and VOR?

Warzone has already been shown.

VOID:


VOR the Maelstrom


Void is still around as Urban War Metropolis more or less. VOR tried to get going again last year with a Kickstarter project but failed nowhere near his (IMO much too high) target.

Grimtuff wrote:
Void is still around as Urban War Metropolis more or less. VOR tried to get going again last year with a Kickstarter project but failed nowhere near his (IMO much too high) target.

The actual Void figures and the original rulebooks (as downloads) for Void 1.1 are still avaialble from Scotia Grendel.
http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Products/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=59

I've got some Void and some Urban War/Metropolis (the games that followed Void in the same universe) figures. Though the Void figs are a touch smaller and less ornate, they look good on the tabletop together.

Warzone is still available here:

http://www.princeaugust.ie/target_games/index_warzone.html

The set of 80 plastic figures are actually quite good considering their age and how quick they go together.

http://www.princeaugust.ie/target_games/tg2420-1.html



Urban Mammoth reinvisioned Void as a small model count skirmish games called Urban War and Metropolis. Some of the models are great, some are not.

http://www.urbanmammoth.com/

Kanluwen wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:I think the elven stature is right. Better than most elves that look identical to humans but with pointy ears and longer lifespans.

I'd rather have the Elven warriors that have proportions that make them not look like anorexic supermodels who can fall through a crack in the floor but trained warriors.

It's kind of the same issue that I have with the people who constantly say that Conan the Barbarian is the same proportions and a perfect match for Arnold. It's stated time and time again in the novels that Conan had the look of a "panther" to him. All sinewy muscle, not bodybuilder bulk.

You realize these are aesthetic choices and that our opinions on them really don't matter, people are buying them despite your hate. I for one love the Mantic Elves. Then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we are both "correct".... But it's getting old we all know you love GW and you will bash any competition that encroaches on their domain. What really gets me though is how you say GWs range is gold and Mantics isn't worth the plastic it's made out of, and please don't make me actually quote you because that is along the lines of what you said, in the words of many GW apologists, "If you don't like it/can't afford it, don't buy it". Why come on here and accuse Mantic who make wonderful miniatures and a great game of making a poor product? Why not go outside? Why not write a poem? Why not channel this frustration into something productive? Alot of us love what Mantic are doing, they are making the hobby we love affordable again, and I for one say hell yes, bring on the models. The most wonderful part is that they will improve, even as your outlook on GW competition becomes more sour.

Maybe that is a little harsh but seriously, we get it, you don't like their elves, some of us do. I like the fact that they are thin to the extreme. In most fantasy that is exactly how they are described: thin to the extreme and graceful. Mantic does tend to take this to the edge but they are models no one is asking you to love them but there is no point to completely bash a product just on an aesthetic choice. I could do the same and say all space marines are because of the ridiculous proportions.


(editted for poor grammar)

Necros wrote:I hate to sound like a fat GW fanboy, but if I am I guess I am. Something about Mantic just bugs me.. I dunno, it just seems like they're just there to cash in on people upset with GW's prices so they make a cheaper alternative with models that in most cases aren't even half as nice looking.

.

Why should that matter to you?

If you want to pay premium prices for GW's highly original, super quality models, just buy them and be happy.

BlotterOfPapers wrote: You realize these are aesthetic choices and that our opinions on them really don't matter, people are buying them despite your hate. I for one love the Mantic Elves. Then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we are both "correct".... But it's getting old we all know you love GW and you will bash any competition that encroaches on their domain. What really gets me though is how you say GWs range is gold and Mantics isn't worth the plastic it's made out of, and please don't make me actually quote you because that is along the lines of what you said, in the words of many GW apologists, "If you don't like it/can't afford it, don't buy it". Why come on here and accuse Mantic who make wonderful miniatures and a great game of making a poor product? Why not go outside? Why not write a poem? Why not channel this frustration into something productive? Alot of us love what Mantic are doing, they are making the hobby we love affordable again, and I for one say hell yes, bring on the models. The most wonderful part is that they will improve, even as your outlook on GW competition becomes more sour.

Maybe that is a little harsh but seriously, we get it, you don't like their elves, some of us do. I like the fact that they are thin to the extreme. In most fantasy that is exactly how they are described: thin to the extreme and graceful. Mantic does tend to take this to the edge but they are models no one is asking you to love them but there is no point to completely bash a product just on an aesthetic choice. I could do the same and say all space marines are because of the ridiculous proportions.


(editted for poor grammar)

Well, welcome to the forums.....I agree with your points, unfortunately your target "audience" will not. No matter how misguided we may feel his attitude is, he has a right, like anyone else to repeat that point..again, and again, and again.

Mantic will do well, even without the backing of a Sci Fi game, in the current economic climate, and I'll come out and say this....only IDIOTS would opt to spend more on their hobby for less. If GW wishes to aim it's product at idiots, then more power to both parties.

The drakkon riders are uglier than crap but I thought the rest of the Mantic elves looked okay. I got a free sprue with the elf scouts on it from the Warstore with an order I made a long time ago and they looked pretty good, even if they are "anorexic" that fact personally never bothered me because elves are kinda supposed to be tall and lithe like that (well, "supposed" to...everyone has their own interpretation of elves and GW's happens to be "humans but with pointy ears"). It may look "ugly" or even inhuman but that's kinda the point, elves aren't human, and a healthy elf physique would not necessarily be the same as a human's.

That's just my opinion though, I don't even like all of the Mantic elves myself, though I think comparing them to Gary Morley's Dark Eldar is harsh.

Wow, let's try and get back on topic shall we?

Beasts of War will be acting as a forum for the Alpha playtesting of Warpath (as well as other games by other companies), so that you may playtest the game and give constructive feedback on it (perhaps even the aesthetics? Who knows? ) to the designer's themselves (Alessio et al). They have set up a monthly subcriber section 'Backstage' so that they can afford to move to better servers and act as a hub for the gaming community outside of GW's sphere of silence...

http://www.beastsofwar.com/bow-update/backstage-24hrs-update/

Remember guys that Mantic is only a year old & GW has been around for 36 years & has developed its fluff off the backs of some very talented, now neglected, people - who in turn used a great many historical, mythological, philosophical & other forms of cultural archetype to form the worlds we all know and love. Mantic are primarily a manufacturer of Toy Soldiers, who have a three year plan for Kings of War and probably a similar one for Warpath as well. For me it is nice to be given the opportunity to become involved in a game's design for a change which GW hasn't done since Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic.

In all I'm looking forward to getting involved with Warpath, as well as playing Kings of War. I have nothing against Mantic's models although I fully understand why others don't like them. For me they serve their purpose as detailed tokens to use within a game & with enough painting effort, even the 'worst' mini can look a little better, although I think even Mantic's Elves (which are by far their 'worst' line) look good once assembled and massed together in units of 20+ and the detail given the slight nature of their bodies and lack of general surface area is as good as can be expected. I can only expect their sculpts to get better. They are just a baby compared to GW's level of design and background/artistic aesthetics and obviously don't take themselves as seriously...after all even the nicest GW mini is still just a Toy Soldier - they can be works of art in the hands of the right people but I think it's fair to say most of us fall short of such aspirations

Eilif wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:
Void is still around as Urban War Metropolis more or less. VOR tried to get going again last year with a Kickstarter project but failed nowhere near his (IMO much too high) target.

The actual Void figures and the original rulebooks (as downloads) for Void 1.1 are still avaialble from Scotia Grendel.
http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Products/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=59

I know, I still have a large Junker force and was running demo games for (I-Kore) on a monthly basis.

Thanks anyway.

I like not having to fork out 20 odd quid for army books with built in obsolescence. Leaves more cash for necessary things like food.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

Spoiler:

kenshin620 wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:What were Warzone, Void, and VOR?

Only one I know of is Warzone, a sci fi game around the same time of 40k. Very RT like models. They even have their own set of plastic sci fi soldiers for a bargain compared to gw but only in monoposed style.

OMG LOOK AT THE SPACE MARINES!!

Heh.

Don't laugh.

THOSE particular marines your looking at there had an empire almost as large as GW did in the beginning. I also remember, and have a few squads still kicking around that once augmented one of my space marine companies, AND was used as a stand in for a commander, that I still have around somewhere. Armorcast had thier resin tanks, that they sold along side GW's resin cast models, ( Oh yeah WITH the titan included.) that were comparable to the 100.00 shlock that GW sees fit to throw down on a monthly basis, and the sets that were comparable to Space Hulk, and Tyrannid Attack were more varied and had 3x the selection in one box that GW's other out of the box games had at the time. As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure those are also the same ones that nailed to coffin for WARZONE. Of course there were other things, but I remember distinctlythat Warzone, and the Fantasy game of the time, Chronopia. As compared to material? Warzone had more. As compared to quality and some.. shall we say "asthetic"? They were clearly lacking, but there were other things from that particular game that made of for the corndog looking tanks, and some of the wackjob sculpts.

My point is getting lost in the shuffle of the dancehall here, I can see. BUT I can agree with Delphont that if you throw more hard earned coin at GW with the current state of affairs and the way that you as a customer are treated, then I won't go so far as to call you a fool, but I'll leave it at your going to get what you pay for. Doesn't leave me here drinking the kill-aid, but I'll sit back and say that compaired to not having ANY CHOICE, and being told to suck it, that people can go out there and there are plenty of alternatives to the great and powerful Games Workshop that are just out there, waiting for you to find them. My point on Mantic is that bottom line up front, I just want something DIFFERENT then a Fantasy or Sci Fi clone. I want something with a little more variety, and , even though I'm not going to be sending Alessio Cavatore any holiday cards, I hope that Mantic isn't just riding the anti-GW sentiment that is pushed to the forefront, and that they honestly do listen to players and continue with a solid performance.

Being a crochety old geezer, and with many scars to prove it, your going to have to do better then bringing on the dancing bear and the stripper pole to change my mind on this new Mantic hype. I don't have to like them, by the way. After his subpar "accomplishments" at GW, I can only hope that he redeems himslef with the new Mantic way of doing business and gives us something other the GW "Big Brother" BS. Thats one guys opinion, by the way.


You don't like it, do something to knock my socks off and change it.

Oh man Mantic has 1YEAR and in that time look at the amount of stuff they did... a mini dungeon crawler, started up making some rules, released not a couple of models but full regiments and armies and now are heading to scifi... In one year they released plenty for a new company.

Are their models the best? No, they are a hit and miss but are getting better just looking at orc characters... they need more time to mature designs but its a very ambitious starting point for any company in the industry.

Mantic has full ranges of Bad models and GW doesnt? SURE the spacemarine design is great isnt it ? and if you consider it no more than a 80's styled scifi old ugly design then yeah you can pretty much dislike the biggest part of 40k just there.

Mantic is a copycat and should be original? Original is relative but if they have to gain some fat in order to take to the next level so be it.

Im happy they are releasing individual blisters with the painters in mind and also that they will SUPPORT the dungeon crawler with another tome and a upgrade on the rules...

For a new born baby company they surely gave a hell of a kick on GW testicles.

NAVARRO wrote:Oh man Mantic has 1YEAR and in that time look at the amount of stuff they did... a mini dungeon crawler, started up making some rules, released not a couple of models but full regiments and armies and now are heading to scifi... In one year they released plenty for a new company.

Are their models the best? No, they are a hit and miss but are getting better just looking at orc characters... they need more time to mature designs but its a very ambitious starting point for any company in the industry.

Mantic has full ranges of Bad models and GW doesnt? SURE the spacemarine design is great isnt it ? and if you consider it no more than a 80's styled scifi old ugly design then yeah you can pretty much dislike the biggest part of 40k just there.

Mantic is a copycat and should be original? Original is relative but if they have to gain some fat in order to take to the next level so be it.

Im happy they are releasing individual blisters with the painters in mind and also that they will SUPPORT the dungeon crawler with another tome and a upgrade on the rules...

For a new born baby company they surely gave a hell of a kick on GW testicles.

I agree.

Mantic may seems to be copying what GW has, but its necessary. Doing so, it assures the company to have a safe and steady ( well not steady, AMAZING ) rate of growth.
I believe, when Mantic is popular enough, they'll start diverting away with new unique creations of their own. But so far, they have been doing everything right, and certainly deserves my patronage.

Considering Mantic have been going for 12/18 months to get where they are now is remarkable.

Put that in the context of 2009/2010 and the period when the financial world went belly up.
Starting any venture is risky, but to start at a time of recession and come through like this is pretty impressive.

LunaHound wrote:before we get a 2nd dwarf army ( even if its in space ) , i rather we get a human of some sort first!

Would this be a bad time to mention the rather nice Abyssal Dwarves Mantic have done, Lina? You know, these guys?