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Dysartes wrote:

LunaHound wrote:before we get a 2nd dwarf army ( even if its in space ) , i rather we get a human of some sort first!

Would this be a bad time to mention the rather nice Abyssal Dwarves Mantic have done, Lina? You know, these guys?

Hm.....

xxvaderxx wrote: Are you freaking kidding me? they are not 2 years old with 3+ ranges already, all their work is "best and most recent", instead of them cherry picking it seems to me YOU are holding to the only questionable miniatures they ever produced, which also happen to be their firsts.

NAVARRO wrote: Oh man Mantic has 1YEAR and in that time look at the amount of stuff they did... a mini dungeon crawler, started up making some rules, released not a couple of models but full regiments and armies and now are heading to scifi... In one year they released plenty for a new company.

Are their models the best? No, they are a hit and miss but are getting better just looking at orc characters... they need more time to mature designs but its a very ambitious starting point for any company in the industry.

Thank God somebody said it. I can't believe people are comparing Mantic to GW in terms of sculpts and quality. You cannot make that comparison without taking it into context that Mantic is a fledgling company and GW is a 30 year old juggernaut. If you wan't to compare models then compare Mantic's elfs to this:



THAT'S fair. At one time in history Citidel and GW were small just like Mantic and their sculpts certainly weren't as good as they are today with some of the best designers and 30+ years of experience behind them. But guess what? People still gave that company with ugly ass models a shot and look what GW became. I think the Mantic Elves look just okay, but that was their first race, before they even had a game! Every other race they've done has gotten better and better. To go from those Elves to the new Orcs in just two years is amazing. So I hope people can move beyond this silliness and realize that no game company comes out of the gate with fluff like GW and sculpts like McVey. Unless you're an unapologetic GW fanboy then more wargames are a good thing. Let's let Mantic take us on this ride and see where it goes!

Stanley Rubric wrote: Let's let Mantic take us on this ride and see where it goes!

I concur

frozenwastes wrote:Warzone is still available here:

http://www.princeaugust.ie/target_games/index_warzone.html

The set of 80 plastic figures are actually quite good considering their age and how quick they go together.

http://www.princeaugust.ie/target_games/tg2420-1.html



Urban Mammoth reinvisioned Void as a small model count skirmish games called Urban War and Metropolis. Some of the models are great, some are not.

http://www.urbanmammoth.com/

Thanks for the linkies, urban mammoth has some very nice models. Gonna grab some of these this month.

Grimtuff wrote:I know, I still have a large Junker force and was running demo games for (I-Kore) on a monthly basis.

I just started a junker force (Void junkers and a few Metropolis Gladiators) for Warengine/Shockforce. Really a nice line of figures.

You know, while I have every support for Mantic, and I really want these guys to do well. I don't mean so that they can deal a death blow to GW, I could give a crap for GW, no, I want them to do well so that we, the wargaming community, can enjoy more choice.

Right, so, having explained my stance, I feel I need to comment on this whole "GW is 30 and Mantic is 1" thing.

When GW started off, the whole concept of fantasy and sci fi miniatures was an absolute dream....there were no pioneers. Sure you had your historicals, but looking at those guys, even they weren't brilliant, and certainly not at such small scale.

Fast forward to today, we've got miniatures in 28mm scale that rival 1/4 scale statues, what some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....

So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.

So then, is it reasonable to look at a companies efforts, be they 1 year old, or 1 day old and compare them to GW when they were only a young company? You could, but I think it would be very very unreasonable to do so.

To draw a comparison. How would you, as a customer, deal with a start up Motor company? Would you walk into this new motor companies showroom and expect them to have designed a car using modern techniques, built in modern manufacturing facilities and conforming to the latest safety regulations, or would you walk in and expect that car company to have produced something equivalent to the original Ford Model-T?

Mantic have taken on a massive task, and I commend them for it, and will do my bit to support their efforts (well, until they dump on me, like someone else has ) but at the same time, if they are going to play in this field, they need to know that things have moved on since the days when GW started. Designs can now be done on computer, 3D printing, etc etc etc....theres no excuse to produce something that is behind the times....well, they can, but they can't expect to be in a top spot if they do.

If it's a question of asthetics and style, that's something else....but conformity to proportion, ability to caprture detail in design, understanding of dynamics and movement...all of these things are a basic requirement of a successful company operating in this industry today.

And Delephont takes the cake with the best explanation as to why I bring up the Elves.

Mantic, if they're going to play "with the Big Boys" of GW and Privateer Press need to step up their game. Otherwise, they'll just be another option that is kind of looked at as a "eh" option.

They're a young company "just starting out". That's fine, but it's really a copout to justify sculpts that if they were put out by GW or Privateer Press(who is also a relatively young comapny) we'd be howling for blood about.

Look at Corvus Belli's "Infinity" line. There is yet to be any real "dud" of the same level as the Mantic Elves/Dwarfs. That's the kind of quality people are looking for in their models, not the quality of GW in the 90s.

Agreed with everything Delephont just said

and Mantic Elves are fine, there are absolutely nothing wrong with the sculpt.
If kan have a problem with them been skinny, then thats just personal preference.

I think anyone posting about how they think the elves look should also include a disclaimer as to whether or not they have seen them in person and whether or not they have seen them in person, painted.

The pictures on Mantic's site are probably not helping.

As to whether or not it's alright to give them a pass because they are new, I say yeah. People do this in all industries all the time. In electronics if some company comes out with a new gadget for the first time, you'll often see reviewers say things like "but since this was HP's first foray into the Netbook market, it's understandable that they got a few things wrong." or "Hyndai's initial offerings for the North American market seem cheap and don't exude a feeling of quality. Hopefully they'll improve with future year's models."

That aside, the elves are actually better than what most people who have never seen them in person think they are. Am I going out and building an army of them? Nope. But enough people did for Mantic to have the cash and encouragement to make their whole line. The elves were pretty much the test bed for their product approach and it worked for Mantic. If someone pointed a gun at me and said "make an elf army-- or else!" I'd choose Mantic over GW's High Elf and Dark Elf warrior boxes. Those are chunky poo.

Disclaimer: I've seen painted elves.

I really love Mantic's Undead and Orcs, and I'm undecided about their Dwarfs and Elves. I do however think they are all good quality - there's nothing wrong with the Elf or Dwarf sculpts, it's just a matter of aesthetic taste. I see why they went for a different look for their elves, I've always been kind of frustrated by the GW Elves and Eldar having human physiques, contrary to the fluff. Also, it seems like they are sort of damned if they do and damned if they don't, in some eyes - they get criticised when they try a different aesthetic but also criticsed for not being original enough.

The only things I still like about GW are the 40k fluff and their plastic minis (especially Dark Eldar). I'm eager to see if Mantic can trump GW in these areas too. They already have some fantastic lookign minis and theonly reason I haven't bought off them yet is because I don't have much interest in fantasy. I like Mantic as a company, I like their attitude to their customers and I like their prices - which I believe have nothing to do with the quality of their products and everything to do with them recognising that if you are good to your customers and provide a good product for a good price you'll attract custom (which is a breath of fresh air compared to GW's sales approach, which more and more these days seems to revolve around conning and manipulation). Reasonable prices aren't just easier on the wallet, they make you feel like you're being treated with respect.

I will be picking up some Mantic zombies very soon, and can't wait to see what their sci fi game has to offer. Looks like Space Dwarfs are a dead cert, so I'll probably be starting an army of those later this year I don't care if it's a bit generic. Tbh I like generic sci fi/space fantasy, if I didn't i wouldn't play 40k, and i welcome the prospect of low priced generic sci fi minis. I just hope GW don't try to slap them with a c&d, they really seem to think they have sole rights to the 'fantasy races in space' concept.

Samus666 wrote:I really love Mantic's Undead and Orcs, and I'm undecided about their Dwarfs and Elves. I do however think they are all good quality - there's nothing wrong with the Elf or Dwarf sculpts, it's just a matter of aesthetic taste. I see why they went for a different look for their elves, I've always been kind of frustrated by the GW Elves and Eldar having human physiques, contrary to the fluff. Also, it seems like they are sort of damned if they do and damned if they don't, in some eyes - they get criticised when they try a different aesthetic but also criticsed for not being original enough.

The only things I still like about GW are the 40k fluff and their plastic minis (especially Dark Eldar). I'm eager to see if Mantic can trump GW in these areas too. They already have some fantastic lookign minis and theonly reason I haven't bought off them yet is because I don't have much interest in fantasy. I like Mantic as a company, I like their attitude to their customers and I like their prices - which I believe have nothing to do with the quality of their products and everything to do with them recognising that if you are good to your customers and provide a good product for a good price you'll attract custom (which is a breath of fresh air compared to GW's sales approach, which more and more these days seems to revolve around conning and manipulation). Reasonable prices aren't just easier on the wallet, they make you feel like you're being treated with respect.

I will be picking up some Mantic zombies very soon, and can't wait to see what their sci fi game has to offer. Looks like Space Dwarfs are a dead cert, so I'll probably be starting an army of those later this year I don't care if it's a bit generic. Tbh I like generic sci fi/space fantasy, if I didn't i wouldn't play 40k, and i welcome the prospect of low priced generic sci fi minis. I just hope GW don't try to slap them with a c&d, they really seem to think they have sole rights to the 'fantasy races in space' concept.

This guy has hit the nail on the head and has said everything i was thinking.I too am anxious to see what they can come up with in terms of sci fi.

I love how every mantic hater`s only argument is "i hate those elves". If we were to apply the same argument to GW firsts models, they wouldn't even be here today.

xxvaderxx wrote:I love how every mantic hater`s only argument is "i hate those elves". If we were to apply the same argument to GW firsts models, they wouldn't even be here today.

:'/ but as Delephont mentioned ( and i agree with )
miniature have evolved and improved during the long years. Mantic ( even though new ) should have the advantage or atleast seen the mistakes of mini sculpts of the past
thus improving on it.

Though i also do agree with you , that the whole complaints about the Elves are only the aesthetic issues ( some find them too thin, i find them perfect as what elves should be )
only time will tell if they need to "improve" the style due to the majority's demands / taste.

frozenwastes wrote:I think anyone posting about how they think the elves look should also include a disclaimer as to whether or not they have seen them in person and whether or not they have seen them in person, painted.
The pictures on Mantic's site are probably not helping.

As to whether or not it's alright to give them a pass because they are new, I say yeah. People do this in all industries all the time. In electronics if some company comes out with a new gadget for the first time, you'll often see reviewers say things like "but since this was HP's first foray into the Netbook market, it's understandable that they got a few things wrong." or "Hyndai's initial offerings for the North American market seem cheap and don't exude a feeling of quality. Hopefully they'll improve with future year's models."

That aside, the elves are actually better than what most people who have never seen them in person think they are. Am I going out and building an army of them? Nope. But enough people did for Mantic to have the cash and encouragement to make their whole line. The elves were pretty much the test bed for their product approach and it worked for Mantic. If someone pointed a gun at me and said "make an elf army-- or else!" I'd choose Mantic over GW's High Elf and Dark Elf warrior boxes. Those are chunky poo.

I have an entire army of them, courtesy of Mantic themselves from the "Name this Unit" contest and them selecting my idea for the Dwarf "Ironwatch".
I actually chose the Elves, thinking they might be "better in person". They just aren't that good overall. The proportions are all wrong, and people keep putting forward the idea that they're wearing "skintight armor" yet have chainmail layered underneath means they would literally have to be stick figures inside of their armor and layered mail.

Look at Mantic's Undead line. Several of those units are 'chunkier' and supposed to be Elves. So Elves get bigger and more proportioned...after they're dead?

But honestly, I'd rather do my own amalgation of GW's plastic kits and GS/brass rod work if I were to be "making an Elf army" for either High Elves or Dark Elves. The Warrior boxes may not be the greatest, but the Corsairs and some elbow grease can make something nice and thematic for Dark Elves and High Elves have the Lothern Sea Guard from the IoB boxed set(which are also sold by themselves) to work from.
The fact that you left out the one Elf range that entirely was revamped and is overall a "Good Example", the Wood Elves, is likely an oversight but to do that is kind of silly. It is the quintessential "Elf" range. GW has been redoing their Dark/High Elf ranges gradually to match that range. Look at the more recent LSG, the Cold One Knights, et al. The only dud still left is still the standard warrior box(why? I have no clue).

Delephont wrote:What some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....

So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.

So then, is it reasonable to look at a companies efforts, be they 1 year old, or 1 day old and compare them to GW when they were only a young company? You could, but I think it would be very very unreasonable to do so.

I think that's a fair point, but, what you also have to take into consideration is that a young company without the money that GW has might not be able to afford to hire the best sculptors out there; nor do they have the luxury of having their own sculptors, who have been with them since the beginning, having matured over time to become some of the world's best. Not every fledgling sculptor is the next Jes Goodwin. So, in that regard, I do still think the comparison of young company vs veteran holds true. Someone brought up video/computer games and that's a great point. A new game from a new company could be wonderful fun but lack some of the flash and effects that games from the big companies have. But, give that new company time and money and they will get better and better until they have the ability to reach the levels of the bigger ones.

Exactly the lack of maturity influences directly the quality and that is something to be considered in a comparison.
I'm not saying they should do miniatures like GW 1974 I'm saying the learning curve and maturation just started and as such it should be included in any fair comparison.

Stanley Rubric wrote:

Delephont wrote:What some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....

So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.

So then, is it reasonable to look at a companies efforts, be they 1 year old, or 1 day old and compare them to GW when they were only a young company? You could, but I think it would be very very unreasonable to do so.

I think that's a fair point, but, what you also have to take into consideration is that a young company without the money that GW has might not be able to afford to hire the best sculptors out there; nor do they have the luxury of having their own sculptors, who have been with them since the beginning, having matured over time to become some of the world's best. Not every fledgling sculptor is the next Jes Goodwin. So, in that regard, I do still think the comparison of young company vs veteran holds true. Someone brought up video/computer games and that's a great point. A new game from a new company could be wonderful fun but lack some of the flash and effects that games from the big companies have. But, give that new company time and money and they will get better and better until they have the ability to reach the levels of the bigger ones.

By that same vein, Mantic isn't using "young sculptors".

They're using industry veterans like Bob Naismith and Gary Morley. These two are people who are very polarizing in terms of their work and how it's perceived. Morley's responsible for the terrible GW Elf warrior boxes that are usually the "reason" people cite for not doing an Elf army. They've matured over time and become mired in their ways.

Look at Mantic's Undead line. Several of those units are 'chunkier' and supposed to be Elves. So Elves get bigger and more proportioned...after they're dead?

Who told you they were elf skeletons to begin with?.

Want to talk proportion issues? then why not mention GWs proportion issues WITH IN THE SAME RACE?.

I could take it even further and state Quality only gets you that far. In the cars industry, the best cars in the world (and most expensive) are probably either Ferrari or Rolls Rois, they are very healthy companies with healthy profit margins and development, hell one of them is even on the best and most competitive race league in the world (F1).
That being said, their global market shares is minimum, which in Cars in not all that big of a deal, as long as you can buy the vehicle and the manufacturer supports it, you are ok. How ever in the games industry, that is not enough, you need OTHER people to play the game with, and as GW past 5 years has shown in their own annual reports, that customer base is shrinking, quite steeply if i may add (20% from 2005 to present). So is Mantic quality as good as GW, probably not yet, but the bigger point is that IT DOES NOT MATTER, they dont need to be the best or even as good, they need to be good enough to look good on formations, which they more than are at the moment.

xxvaderxx wrote:

Look at Mantic's Undead line. Several of those units are 'chunkier' and supposed to be Elves. So Elves get bigger and more proportioned...after they're dead?

Who told you they were elf skeletons to begin with?

Mantic's own fluff, provided in the boxes you get with their Elves.

Want to talk proportion issues? then why not mention GWs proportion issues WITH IN THE SAME RACE?.

Probably because those proportion issues are in kits with ten years difference between them, maybe?

It's like asking why the Power Armored Marneus Calgar is so much worse than the Terminator armored version.

Quality? proportions kan?

Thats eaaaaaaasy , feel free to compare High Elf spearmen vs Mantic spearmen.

Kanluwen wrote:By that same vein, Mantic isn't using "young sculptors".

They're using industry veterans like Bob Naismith and Gary Morley. These two are people who are very polarizing in terms of their work and how it's perceived. Morley's responsible for the terrible GW Elf warrior boxes that are usually the "reason" people cite for not doing an Elf army. They've matured over time and become mired in their ways.

Okay, very true. I just think that Mantic has their own style and it may not be to everyone's tastes. At the end of the day, I think Mantic has comes leaps and bounds from those initial Elves sculpts. So, hopefully we'll see their stuff get better and better in the future. Aside from the Elves I think most people would be hard pressed to say their other races don't look good. They have their own style without copying GW too much, and they're released a good price point. That's more than enough for me to give some of my money, beta test rules and try to help them get a good footing in the miniatures market so they can continue to improve.

Kanluwen wrote:

Stanley Rubric wrote:

Delephont wrote:What some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....

So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.

So then, is it reasonable to look at a companies efforts, be they 1 year old, or 1 day old and compare them to GW when they were only a young company? You could, but I think it would be very very unreasonable to do so.

I think that's a fair point, but, what you also have to take into consideration is that a young company without the money that GW has might not be able to afford to hire the best sculptors out there; nor do they have the luxury of having their own sculptors, who have been with them since the beginning, having matured over time to become some of the world's best. Not every fledgling sculptor is the next Jes Goodwin. So, in that regard, I do still think the comparison of young company vs veteran holds true. Someone brought up video/computer games and that's a great point. A new game from a new company could be wonderful fun but lack some of the flash and effects that games from the big companies have. But, give that new company time and money and they will get better and better until they have the ability to reach the levels of the bigger ones.

By that same vein, Mantic isn't using "young sculptors".

They're using industry veterans like Bob Naismith and Gary Morley. These two are people who are very polarizing in terms of their work and how it's perceived. Morley's responsible for the terrible GW Elf warrior boxes that are usually the "reason" people cite for not doing an Elf army. They've matured over time and become mired in their ways.

The final product presented to the costumer is not a exclusive consequence of a particular sculptor alone and rather a agglomeration of efforts and biz decisions from several biz people of different areas of expertise, it would be naive to think the sculptor alone defines a product... want one example? Finecast... good sculpts, good experienced sculptors ruined by bad cast.

This is a team work and if the team in general lacks the oil of experience some mistakes are more prone to happens... HOW they handle their shortcommings and mistakes WILL determine their success.

Probably because those proportion issues are in kits with ten years difference between them, maybe?

Ten year difference? where the hell did you pop that number from?. Wolf troops V wolf terminators, Fantasy empire comander box v regular troopers, mages v troopers, goldenswordmen v troopers.

Mantic's own fluff, provided in the boxes you get with their Elves.

What you mean that 2 sheet of paper you received with the box?, now we know that is written in stone and GW has never pulled a 180 on their fluff.

xxvaderxx wrote:
What you mean that 2 sheet of paper you received with the box?, now we know that is written in stone and GW has never pulled a 180 on their fluff.

Be careful, that's one of the things people hate about GW. If we, as wargamers, are now using this as a defence for one company over another....then don't we negate that very same gripe we have with GW?!?

When developing fluff that early on in a system it is often impossible to avoid stepping on your own toes.

Kan, we get that you don't like the Mantic elves but does it really need 7 pages of back and forth? So you don't like them - fine; now let's move on...

Ya... because we all know lunahound is going to add 7 more pages to tell kanluwen that elves are so cool looking....

and that my taste and opinion > his

etc etc.

Right?

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.....

I got a couple of the "free elves" that mantic gave out when they started their line. The sculpts are nice, but they are too small next to my reaper and other fantasy miniatures.

They make rather tall gnomes, I suppose. I don't like them.

I love their undead line, though. Perfect scale for my D&D campaign.

I'm assuming they will do a human army. I'm hoping it could have a not-DKOK look. THAT would be cool...

I'm not really seeing where the age of the company comes into how good its sculpts are?

The only advantage GW has is that it has a set style to work to and everyone working for them know what it is.

Mantic are entirely capable of hiring or commissioning (as they have) very good sculptors to make models for them. Hell, they could even hire someone who has been sculpting longer than GW has been around if they really wanted to.

Delephont wrote:You know, while I have every support for Mantic, and I really want these guys to do well. I don't mean so that they can deal a death blow to GW, I could give a crap for GW, no, I want them to do well so that we, the wargaming community, can enjoy more choice.

Right, so, having explained my stance, I feel I need to comment on this whole "GW is 30 and Mantic is 1" thing.

When GW started off, the whole concept of fantasy and sci fi miniatures was an absolute dream....there were no pioneers. Sure you had your historicals, but looking at those guys, even they weren't brilliant, and certainly not at such small scale.

Fast forward to today, we've got miniatures in 28mm scale that rival 1/4 scale statues, what some of the artists can do with miniatures today is breath-taking.....the technology and tools to do the job have moved on in leaps and bounds.....

So, whats my point?.....well, an aspiring sculptor starting in the industry today, has a wealth of information, and resources so that even the least skilled individual can produce stuff today that is better than what the sculptors of yester-year could accomplish.

...
...
.

I must take exception to that. Citadel/GW did not invent F/SF miniatures. I was buying SF and Fantasy miniatures from MiniFigs in the mid-70s. They were pretty crappy by modern standards, to be sure, but they pre-dated Citadel by several years. I'm pretty sure Ral Partha too were in production before Citadel.

You're right about the information and techniques available these days. It shouldn't be hard to commission a set of masters from some really good sculptors.

Same goes for fluff. You just put down some basic concepts, brainstorm things a bit, and write a good brief based on that. Then commission a fantasy or SF author to write a timeline, background material and some representative fiction pieces. Artwork, blah blah, etc.

You won't get 30 Black Library novels in a year, but you can get the basic of an internally consistent future background done in a few months.