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Liber Chaotica credits the creation of jugernoughts to the CD's, its page 70?


Iprox, what change in direction are you talking about? I have maintained to same point throughout, if your talking about the emphasis, then i felt it was needed for clarity, as people were dronning on about them being seperate universes, and in that we agreed, I maintained that they are connected through the warp.

I retract that, there are a few different people arguing with different points of view.

iproxtaco wrote:I retract that, there are a few different people arguing with different points of view.

no worries old bean, we've all done it lol

Ok, I think I finally have a good way to illustrate this as I see it(and if I understand, formosa sees it as well).

Venn Diagrams!

Three circles in a line, each one over lapping the one to it's right and/or left. The connections are very loose, and not horrifyingly reliable.

40K.....................Warp...................WHFB
l--------------l------l------------------l------l----------l
l..............l......l..................l......l..........l
l..............l......l..................l......l..........l
l--------------l------l------------------l------l----------l

Somethings getting into the warp from either can eventually get to the other, but it is incredibly rare and there are most likely crazy things happening in the warp that prevent certain things from getting through.

-cgmckenzie

ps-wow, that was actually really difficult to do. APPRECIATE IT OR RUE THIS DAY!

that diagram addles my little mind, but i know what your getting at, I agree!!

Well, it turns out GW did retcon it. Typical GW ruining my fun. Anyway, In 2nd ed (Fantasy realms of chaos I think) way back when it did explicitly say they were in the same universe, however since then there has been no mention of it at all. So I suppose thats retconning it.

But cgmckenzies fan bloody tastic diagram, it shows how they are connected through the warp, this shows how daemons, chainswords and probably all the crap from the travesty that was Albions campaign

Anyway, I enjoyed this thread

I would like to know when and where did GW retcon the connection. I understand the reason to seperate the two games but then why not call it rogue trader (or something similar)? Why call it Warhammer 40k? In the first edition of warhammer your Amazon warriors could have bolters!! In my version of the world they are connected - not because I am delusional but because they (GM) have connected it again and again. And whats the harm? Are they afraid that they will lose fantasy players? In the 40k fluff there are thousands of primitive planets - why not one that is Warhammer world! And then there is Sigmar - "born" the same day a twin tailed comet is seen in the sky. For me its not a ? if he is an primach but what number he is?

Lasher wrote:I would like to know when and where did GW retcon the connection. I understand the reason to seperate the two games but then why not call it rogue trader (or something similar)? Why call it Warhammer 40k? In the first edition of warhammer your Amazon warriors could have bolters!! In my version of the world they are connected - not because I am delusional but because they (GM) have connected it again and again. And whats the harm? Are they afraid that they will lose fantasy players? In the 40k fluff there are thousands of primitive planets - why not one that is Warhammer world! And then there is Sigmar - "born" the same day a twin tailed comet is seen in the sky. For me its not a ? if he is an primach but what number he is?

I dont know if they did directly retcon it, but it hasnt been mentioned since 2nd ed fantasy, its 8th ed now, so its been a long time. So I guess people presume its been retconned

Warhammer 40,000 is set 40,000 years in the future, well technically its 41,000 years, but whatever.

That was 1st edition, before 2nd editions last mention of it

Yeah its your hobby, and you can believe whatever you want, but they havent connected it since 2nd ed, refer to the diagram above, thats the only way they are connected.

Sigmar origins were shrouded in mystery, mainly because of 2nd ed, but black library published books chronicling his life, he was born to a mother and father normally

He is not a primarch, cool as it would be, but he isnt, besides he died at a ripe old age of 80 (around that anyway), doubt he was a god if he died that 'young'

Ok I'm new here but I know FOR A FACT that the current Necron codex states that old one for both worlds are the same ones. Another thing in it also says that you can have Necrons fight the lizardmen!!! Also they had an event where things are linked by the Warp in both world because things from both world can travel into the other. I like the zoo idea my self but I highly doubt it. I like to use some of 40K bitz in my fantasy armies saying that a group of the what ever bit I'm using got warped to the past and were slaughter by that group I'm using it in. One more thing WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE SKAVEN!!!

Karnage Wolf wrote:Ok I'm new here but I know FOR A FACT that the current Necron codex states that old one for both worlds are the same ones. Another thing in it also says that you can have Necrons fight the lizardmen!!! Also they had an event where things are linked by the Warp in both world because things from both world can travel into the other. I like the zoo idea my self but I highly doubt it. I like to use some of 40K bitz in my fantasy armies saying that a group of the what ever bit I'm using got warped to the past and were slaughter by that group I'm using it in. One more thing WHAT EVER HAPPEND TO THE SKAVEN!!!

Hey welcome to Dakka. Any chance fo a few quotes? Yeah the old ones are called the same in both, and slann are in fantasy in 40k, but they have been since hte dawn of time, its not like GW to contradict itself in fluff..................wait, what do you mean they do?

Karnage Wolf wrote:Ok I'm new here but I know FOR A FACT that the current Necron codex states that old one for both worlds are the same ones.

Sorry, but there is no such statement in the Necron codex. But going by what little 40K fluff there is for the Slann, while they are the servants of the Old Ones in WHFB, they were the Old Ones in 40K.

Also they had an event where things are linked by the Warp in both world because things from both world can travel into the other.

Unless you're thinking of some small store-run event, the closest I can think of was the WHFB Albion campaign, where it was possible for champions to wind up with 40K-sounding weapons 'from the sky'...

There have been small bits and pieces like that over the years, along with the bigger bits and pieces like the Chaos Gods... but they're just shared concepts, not a sign that the games are (these days) considered to be in the same setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lasher wrote:I would like to know when and where did GW retcon the connection.

There's never been any official statement of it... but then, the official 'connection' between them was never anything more than a single throwaway comment in one of the Rogue Trader era books.

It's been stated by studio staff on more than one occasion over the years though.

I understand the reason to seperate the two games but then why not call it rogue trader (or something similar)? Why call it Warhammer 40k?

Because it started out as Warhammer 40K, and changing the name of one of your two core games just because you retcon a piece of relatively insignificant background is unnecessary and confusing to your customers.

And whats the harm? Are they afraid that they will lose fantasy players?

It's not so much about harm, but simply about giving them the freedom to move the fluff of the two games in different directions.

yo insaniak.

Righto just to re-iterate, as some still seem to be missing the concept.

40k universe
The warp (40k)
The Warp (fantasy)
Fantasy universe

Both are linked through the warp, both are distinctly seperate realities/universes, Same Chaos gods and Deamons (Identical NOT similar)

Another obvious example is Slaanesh, created by Eldar, but in the fantasy universe

2ed WHF or 2ed WH40k


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THE SKAVEN are still in 40K there called rat men and they live in the under hive of all hive worlds.

You guys are reading WWAAYY to much into this!
Its like saying Starship Troopers and 40k are in the same universe since they share terimators, tyranids, and humanity trying to defend itself.

Formosa, there is literally 0 connection to the warp in Fantasy. Nowhere is the Warp mentioned by any names, either the Warp, Immaterium, Sea of Souls etc. And in Fantasy, Daemons don't pop out of reality, they come from the Polar Gates to the north and south of the world.

Cryonicleech wrote:Formosa, there is literally 0 connection to the warp in Fantasy. Nowhere is the Warp mentioned by any names, either the Warp, Immaterium, Sea of Souls etc. And in Fantasy, Daemons don't pop out of reality, they come from the Polar Gates to the north and south of the world.

The names of the warp: ? its called the Warp in several Fantasy books, and if memory serves, even Deamons of Chaos
Deamons popping out of reality: ... Yes they do, quite often really, I'm suprised by this statement

Mymidia: That would be accurate if starship troopers had say.. the chaos gods (proven to be Identical) Deamons and what not.

And yet Another quote..
Warriors of Chaos: Page 7, Coming of Chaos. Try and tell me its not the same old ones.

They aren't the same Old Ones.

iproxtaco wrote:They aren't the same Old Ones.

that it lol.

anything to explain that point of view?
There is plenty of evidence to point to the fact they are one and the same, but i'm interested to know you think otherwise.

For the reasons I have stated through 5 flipping pages. They were connected, GW has moved away from this, to disconnect them.

iprox, we haven proven through numerous souces that this GW statement has either been in error or left behind.

To put it another way, for the sake of argument, if GW had stated this, why have they continued to publish fluff that connects them?

yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:
THE SKAVEN are still in 40K there called rat men and they live in the under hive of all hive worlds.

No... just... no.

Formosa wrote:iprox, we haven proven through numerous souces that this GW statement has either been in error or left behind.

To put it another way, for the sake of argument, if GW had stated this, why have they continued to publish fluff that connects them?

Short answer, they haven't. You interpret it differently. I'm kinda done with this conversation, it kinda ended and then some joker came along and resurrected it. Think what you want, GW has moved away from the connection, anything else is just the vestiges of 1st ed.

Caledor has a dragons recollections of the world at the time of the Old Ones arrival

It has them arriving through a multi coloured tear in the sky (thatd be a warp transition then, see ALL 40k fluff regarding exit back to normal space) in their silver skyships. So, spaceships then.

There are definite links between the universes, especially with Amazons having freaking las pistols on their sprues...

iprox you have provided no sources for you opinions, you just keep going on about some statement some "guy" may have said.

I, and others, have given references, and yes some of them could be taken as conjecture, however, alot of it is as obvious as taking a brick to the face, namely
Slaanesh
Chainsword
juggernoughts
Old ones
Albion
Deamons army book/codex
All Liber Chaotica
etc.
All circa 2005 onwards, vestiges of 1st ed indeed.
in short, your wrong

lets be honest, they are connected by a lack of imagination on GW's behalf

iproxtaco wrote:Do any of you people have a source which states a connection? Just now it's simply objects and characters which are similar due to individual interpretation, but no where does it state that they are the same, ergo. you can't prove your ridiculous theories.

Can I see some of your sources?

EDIT: Like for this bold statement here

iproxtaco wrote:

Formosa wrote:.... uh yeah I said they are seperate,
"But both are distinctly separate, but still connected."
And its obvious there seperate settings, same as DC/Marvel,
but even they CAN and HAVE had crossovers, same as fantasy and 40k, hell anyone remember that Dark emissary that put on a "a large cumbersome glove that destoys anything it touched" (paraphrased)

A Chainsword is a Chainsword in both worlds, the only diference is that superstitious belief turns a Chainsword into a Deamon weapon.

Have you goy a link to this "both worlds are completely 10000000% seperate" thing everyone has, otherwise its just hear say (not the band)?

No, I don't have a direct link, I know for a fact though that GW has stated the two worlds ARE NOT CONNECTED, likely way back in a WD is where it's actually printed,due to in part to numerous conversations with employees that have been mentioned on this forum, and the fact that I myself have had an employee tell me they aren't as part of 'official policy'. Again, certain names are used, said names are few and far between, and the object is different.
It's funny that you say they're connected but separate, make your mind up, they can't be both.

Fairfeldia wrote:lets be honest, they are connected by a lack of imagination on GW's behalf

Lol I suppose

I came to Dakka looking for interesting wargaming discussions I stay for the drama

Dare I voice my opinion just to see people in fits and frothing at the mouth?

On a side note I liked the liber chaotica stuff, it made me smile remembering the Warhammer world being referenced as a planet in the eye of terror somewhere or something. Really wish I hadn't sold all that stuff. But then in years to come GW said nope, the warhammer world isn't in the 40k universe. Perhaps the liber chaotica books are now just to illustrate the extent of the warp and the gods and daemons within. Where ever life is these emotions will condense into beings and where they have condensed will join the vast sprawling stuff that is the warp. And with Chaos emcompassing all possibilities etc, every facet of chaos is able to be seen in the warp even if you can't actually break through to another reality.

Or then again maybe they just didn't want Sigmar as a primarch and chaos lords with lightning claws and bolters anymore as no other race got then . Then they did as a one off which had no lasting effect on the world and had people buying some models they released just for the campaign and bits to convert fantasy models they also bought and wouldn't get to use again .

The system names thing mentioned earlier. It comes from when 40k used pretty much the warhammer system, hence warhammer 40k, here are your armies with guns in space. Back then it was linked but lets face it, it was a rules thing, not background thing that influenced the naming especially as warhammer had become a well selling product (I think it was on it's 3rd edition at the time?).

But please feel free to continue the frothing it's gave me a chuckle or two how seriously it's being taken.