Great Britain: The greatest nation the world has ever seen?

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**Ratius**

Back in yer box Mr. booze Demon.

**Swordwind**

In terms of Malaysia, I'm glad of the large amount of development they did in my country while they were here. What I'm not so fond of is abandoning us and holing up in Singapore while the Japanese invaded... on bicycles.

**remilia_scarlet**

Ahtman wrote:This must be where the USA gets its overinflated sense of self worth from. We often confuse having a history with being great as well.

Well, if it wasn't for the KGB blowing ALL of it's money on undersea warfare, and not on taking down the CIA, we'd all be speaking russian right now, and the world would be a soviet one, but, gladly, the KGB failed, communism suffered a severe wound, and, many years later, I get to live in this amazing country called america.

Of course, us americans have to remember that america isn't perfedct, but, you need to be proud of where you're from, I'm proud I came from russia, I'm proud to live in america, and if I lived in the UK, I would be proud.

**SilverMK2**

Swordwind wrote:In terms of Malaysia, I'm glad of the large amount of development they did in my country while they were here. What I'm not so fond of is abandoning us and holing up in Singapore while the Japanese invaded... on bicycles.

Sorry about that

I lived just outside of KL as a small child. Unfortunately I don't really remember it (I was only 2-3). I have since gone back and visited and it is a very nice country. Even went back to my old house and they still had the same old stone table and chairs in the garden

**Ratius**

Fair comment Rem, but note:

Proud can also = jingoistic, flag waving, l art hollier than thou

NOT always Rem, but sometimes.

**remilia_scarlet**

Ratius wrote:Fair comment Rem, but note:

Proud can also = jingoistic, flag waving, l art hollier than thou

NOT always Rem, but sometimes.

Well, you're right, but, I prefer to be subtle in ways, I'm not any better than anyone else. Sadly, there are people like that, who act like jerks to us foreigners, and swing their flag in our face, implying we aren't glad to be in america.

**Ratius**

Uncle Frazz?!

**Ketara**

chaos0xomega wrote:

Sour Grapes.

More sour grapes.

Sour grapes again.

I sense a new meme coming on......

*goes off to Photoshop*

**dogma**

remilia_scarlet wrote:...you need to be proud of where you're from...

No you don't.

**remilia_scarlet**

dogma wrote:
remilia_scarlet wrote:...you need to be proud of where you're from...

No you don't.

That, as you say, didn't come out the way I meant it to, what I meant was you should be proud, because you can't change that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

Sour Grapes.

More sour grapes.

Sour grapes again.

I sense a new meme coming on......

*goes off to Photoshop*

memegenerator.net

**dogma**

remilia_scarlet wrote:
That, as you say, didn't come out the way I meant it to, what I meant was you should be proud, because you can't change that.

I don't see why ability to change a thing is important to pride.

Are you proud of your DNA? Of your stomach? Of your colon?

**remilia_scarlet**

dogma wrote:
remilia_scarlet wrote:
That, as you say, didn't come out the way I meant it to, what I meant was you should be proud, because you can't change that.

I don't see why ability to change a thing is important to pride.

Are you proud of your DNA? Of your stomach? Of your colon?

I'm proud of myself, why must you dissect what I say?

**dogma**

Because I am neither classy, nor kind, but I am good at analysis.

My point is that pride doesn't emanate from what can't be changed, it emanates from what we want to continue existing.

I could, for example, be Italian while wishing Italy to be destroyed.

**remilia_scarlet**

dogma wrote:Because I am neither classy, nor kind, but I am good at analysis.

My point is that pride doesn't emanate from what can't be changed, it emanates from what we want to continue existing.

I could, for example, be Italian while wishing Italy to be destroyed.

So I see, so, then, your preferene is to see with your eyes, and state the facts. Just remember, not everything is in black and white, there's reason behind everything. I choose to be proud because I have a right to, even if I choose not to rub it in other people's faces.

**dogma**

remilia_scarlet wrote:
So I see, so, then, your preferene is to see with your eyes, and state the facts. Just remember, not everything is in black and white, there's reason behind everything.

Facts aren't necessarily black and white. Usually they aren't colored at all.

**Albatross**

Ratius wrote:Oooops Ratius has had a few (to drink obviously!), how far do you want to go into the negatives in relation to The Republic of Ireland?

The influence of the UK on the Republic of Ireland has been overwhelmingly positive.

**purplefood**

Albatross wrote:
Ratius wrote:Oooops Ratius has had a few (to drink obviously!), how far do you want to go into the negatives in relation to The Republic of Ireland?

The influence of the UK on the Republic of Ireland has been overwhelmingly positive.

Ireland overall (and throughout histroy) however... not so much.

**Lexx**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The good news is that I've finally been able to find some gainful employment - I teach A Level history at night school.

One of the modules/seminars I teach is The British Empire in the 19th century.

Now, a lot has been said about the role of PC (political correctness) in modern society and I'm sure folks on this site have their own views on its rights or wrongs. But that is neither here nor there.

The main focus of the module is the rights and wrongs of imperialism. There are people in my class who are Asian/African, and so obviously their ancestors were probably being exploited and needless to say, they think the Empire was not a force for good. Now, being mixed race myself with a grandfather from Trinidad, I can sympathise.

But I'm their teacher, and I believe that an integral part of education is teaching people the skills of critical thinking, presenting all sides of an argument etc and ultimately making up their own minds.

Now, I've decided to do a devil's advocate style piece and present Great Britain as a force of good: cultural legacy, influence on the USA, world trade, law and justice, building railways in India, spread of the English language, taking on the Nazis etc

I'd interested (and appreciative) in lots of views from as many different people as possible, particualry non-brits, on the positives and negatives of the British Empire. Ignoring our current decline, is Great Britain the greatest nation the world has ever seen?

I would say its been a mixed bag. Whilst there has been good found from the British empire it has been at the expense of other nations independence and autonomy. Which has only in the last century seen a reversal with the devolution of government to Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Personally I don't identify myself as British. But Scottish or Orkadian ( I come from the Orkneys). And hope in my lifetime the union will be broken. The notion of the British empire is an outmoded one in my view. But then again I am very against any form of Imperialism so others mileage may vary.

**notprop**

Okay, who poked that hornets nest?

Everyone was having a good laugh at the Yanks then someone knocks over paddy's pint, Brilliant!

Actually know I think about it my vote goes to the Ro Ireland. In less than a century they have spread about the world to the point where I can get a pint of (variable quality) Porter in most sizeable towns in a replica of an Irish boozer. Take that McD's.

Also Economics, they have taught us allot about that recently.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lexx wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The good news is that I've finally been able to find some gainful employment - I teach A Level history at night school.

One of the modules/seminars I teach is The British Empire in the 19th century.

Now, a lot has been said about the role of PC (political correctness) in modern society and I'm sure folks on this site have their own views on its rights or wrongs. But that is neither here nor there.

The main focus of the module is the rights and wrongs of imperialism. There are people in my class who are Asian/African, and so obviously their ancestors were probably being exploited and needless to say, they think the Empire was not a force for good. Now, being mixed race myself with a grandfather from Trinidad, I can sympathise.

But I'm their teacher, and I believe that an integral part of education is teaching people the skills of critical thinking, presenting all sides of an argument etc and ultimately making up their own minds.

Now, I've decided to do a devil's advocate style piece and present Great Britain as a force of good: cultural legacy, influence on the USA, world trade, law and justice, building railways in India, spread of the English language, taking on the Nazis etc

I'd interested (and appreciative) in lots of views from as many different people as possible, particualry non-brits, on the positives and negatives of the British Empire. Ignoring our current decline, is Great Britain the greatest nation the world has ever seen?

I would say its been a mixed bag. Whilst there has been good found from the British empire it has been at the expense of other nations independence and autonomy. Which has only in the last century seen a reversal with the devolution of government to Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Personally I don't identify myself as British. But Scottish or Orkadian ( I come from the Orkneys). And hope in my lifetime the union will be broken. The notion of the British empire is an outmoded one in my view. But then again I am very against any form of Imperialism so others mileage may vary.

And yet Salmon's plan to ostracise the rest of the UK continues.
All EU students get free education, English have to pay. Nice feller.

You're lucky I can not bring myself to be cut off from square sausage or there would be hell to pay!

**LordofHats**

That article cites internal dissent as the dominant force leading to the end of Tokugawa.

My understanding has been that Perry's actions sparked the keg that had been building for awhile. The catalyst of the chain reaction? EDIT: Then again, the last time I learned about this was in like... the 10th grade from our notoriously factual error ridden US history books

dogma wrote:Really?

The 2nd Barbary War.
Great White Fleet.
Panama v. Colombia.
Everything related to Taiwan.
India v. Pakistan.
Vietnam.
Korea.
Kosovo.
Iraq.
Afghanistan.
Nicaragua.

Huh... I guess I've just always thought of Gunboat Diplomacy as being shooting your boats guns at a nation you're not at hostilities with XD. Which if Wiki is correct is not the proper way to approach the term

Good thing I can fall back on the excuse that I'm not a naval or foreign policy historian

Would that whole thing with Iran after one of our boats struck a mine in the 80's count too?

**Albatross**

purplefood wrote:
Albatross wrote:
Ratius wrote:Oooops Ratius has had a few (to drink obviously!), how far do you want to go into the negatives in relation to The Republic of Ireland?

The influence of the UK on the Republic of Ireland has been overwhelmingly positive.

Ireland overall (and throughout histroy) however... not so much.

I don't think that it's that simple actually.

**purplefood**

Albatross wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Albatross wrote:
Ratius wrote:Oooops Ratius has had a few (to drink obviously!), how far do you want to go into the negatives in relation to The Republic of Ireland?

The influence of the UK on the Republic of Ireland has been overwhelmingly positive.

Ireland overall (and throughout histroy) however... not so much.

I don't think that it's that simple actually.

Nothing ever is...

**Toastedandy**

purplefood wrote:
Albatross wrote:
purplefood wrote:
Albatross wrote:
Ratius wrote:Oooops Ratius has had a few (to drink obviously!), how far do you want to go into the negatives in relation to The Republic of Ireland?

The influence of the UK on the Republic of Ireland has been overwhelmingly positive.

Ireland overall (and throughout histroy) however... not so much.

I don't think that it's that simple actually.

Nothing ever is...

Unlike the Irish....................

**Albatross**

Stay classy.

**Da Boss**

Argh. It's a bit complicated to work out whether the influence of Britain on Ireland is positive or negative overall. There are plenty of positives, plenty of negatives. I think what people tend to forget is that stuff like the Famine might have had it's root cause in English colonisation and dispossession (and any narrative or Irish history cannot ignore the Famine, population levels are still massively down from pre-Famine days), it was really the greedy actions of the Irish ruling class that allowed it to reach the horrific scale it did. You can argue that they weren't irish, but they would certainly have seen themselves as Irish. A lot of the narrative has been polluted by nationalists after the fact and distorted to fit their narrative.
If I had to pick one English figure that I thought had an extremely negative effect I would say Cromwell, not just for the massacres and slavery, but for the dispossession of huge amounts of the populace that lead to widespread discontent and set the stage for later poverty.
But for every Cromwell there are a hundred examples of benevolence and concern for the Irish if you go looking for them.
I think the British Empire was pretty good as Empires go- my favourite thing is the fact that they decided they werent' having any of this slavery nonsense before a lot of other major world powers, and then went about stopping it.

**purplefood**

Da Boss wrote:Argh. It's a bit complicated to work out whether the influence of Britain on Ireland is positive or negative overall. There are plenty of positives, plenty of negatives. I think what people tend to forget is that stuff like the Famine might have had it's root cause in English colonisation and dispossession (and any narrative or Irish history cannot ignore the Famine, population levels are still massively down from pre-Famine days), it was really the greedy actions of the Irish ruling class that allowed it to reach the horrific scale it did. You can argue that they weren't irish, but they would certainly have seen themselves as Irish. A lot of the narrative has been polluted by nationalists after the fact and distorted to fit their narrative.
If I had to pick one English figure that I thought had an extremely negative effect I would say Cromwell, not just for the massacres and slavery, but for the dispossession of huge amounts of the populace that lead to widespread discontent and set the stage for later poverty.
But for every Cromwell there are a hundred examples of benevolence and concern for the Irish if you go looking for them.
I think the British Empire was pretty good as Empires go- my favourite thing is the fact that they decided they werent' having any of this slavery nonsense before a lot of other major world powers, and then went about stopping it.

+1 to all of this...

**Toastedandy**

The famine was caused by the British occupation, there is no denying that. They gave power to a small minority of Irish people, but the vast majority of the rich and powerful were British, not Irish. It was the greedy actions of the BRITISH ruling class, not the Irish that allowed it reach such a scale.

**Da Boss**

Dude, most of the landowners were irish. Perhaps sometime back in the day their ancestors had lived in britain, but by the time of the Famine they were the IRISH ruling class. The truth of the whole story is not one of nations screwing over nations so much as rich fethers screwing over poor fethers, much as it is today and ever has been.

**Toastedandy**

The tenants were Irish, the landowners were not

Even so, the famine wasn't a famine so much as theft. The English took away the land from its rightful owners, and then they took the food from the people who really needed it. Though there was a blight on the potato crops in Ireland (and across Europe, though not with such disastrous results), there was actually plenty of other food being produced there. Crops like wheat, barley, and oats were successfully grown by the English landlords, but they were shipped to England. Likewise, beef, lamb, and pork, as well as butter, eggs, and poultry. It was all out of reach for the Irish.

**htj**

Ah, good, we can finally sort out the Irish question. I'm sure this thread will succeed where decades of serious research and politcal discourse have failed!

Goooo, INTERNET!