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canthatenuff wrote:[Here is where henchmen come into play. As you point out, Purifiers and Strike Squads are not the best backfield units, their weapons are mid-range and they are too expensive to camp with. So you buy yourself a 62 point razorback with scoring units. Problem solved.

You mean that 162 point henchman squad? Or the 2 for 112 each? And what exactly happens if someone happens to blow up said av 11 box? The Glorious Mathhammer says that 2 of the 3 are wounded, and at least one is likely to die, forcing a morale check and then likely running off of the table.

Considering the odds of hitting, penetrating, rolling a 6, getting a wound, failing it, failing morale which isn't horrible really.....

Pretty good odds.

... right have to do this I've been wondering the odds ... destroyed or worse result

Melta BS4
AV10 = 32.7%, AV11 = 31.1%, AV12 = 28.7%, AV13 = 25.3%, AV14 = 21..%
so having 2 (one combi)
AV10 = 54.7%, AV11 = 52.5%, AV12 = 49.2%, AV13 = 44.1%, AV14 = 37.6%

PsyCannon (1 Shot)
AV10 = 11.1%, AV11 = 07.4%, AV12 = 03.7%, AV13 = 03.7%, AV14 = 02.5%
(2 Shots) (1 moving)
AV10 = 21..%, AV11 = 14.3%, AV12 = 07.3%, AV13 = 07.3%, AV14 = 04.9%
(4 Shots) (2 moving or 1 still)
AV10 = 37.6%, AV11 = 26.5%, AV12 = 14..%, AV13 = 14.0%, AV14 = 09.5%
(8 Shots) (4 moving or 2 still)
AV10 = 61..%, AV11 = 46..%, AV12 = 26.1%, AV13 = 26.1%, AV14 = 18.1%

(16 Shots) (4 still)
AV10 = 84.8%, AV11 = 70.8%, AV12 = 45.3%, AV13 = 45.3%, AV14 = 33.3%

... While the melta does do better the psycannon does hold its own everywhere but AV14. For any tank hunting you need a minimum of two and if possible to stand still. Still moral of the story don't take any vehicles near a unit with 4 especially if they don't need to move.

I don't see what the hype is about, it's just codex creep. Keeps the game from getting stale, and makes sure that the same builds arn't the best builds forever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit for double post.

Essentially you are right loota boy, but we aren't really talking about hype, we are discussing how much GK influence the meta and how they are handle the current power builds out there.

Everyone seems to picked up on their weaknesses already:

1. Generally short ranged guns, though powerful.
2. Expensive basic troops
3. Even more expensive specialists

But then we look at the positives and (IMO) it gets confusing since there are so many potential builds:

1. Purifiers are a great underpriced (though still expensive) anti-horde unit. Throw in the fact that currently the armies they work well against also lack psychic defense and they are a great choice.

2. Psybolt ammo Autocannons. 4 Twin-linked S8 48" rnage guns on an AV 12 chassis...need I say more

3. Fortitude. A game breaker at a mere 5pts.

4. Henchmen. A great counterpart to a GK list since they bring much needed melta and plasma and are ridiculously cheap. They also allow you to field the chimera, perhaps one of the most broken transports in the game.

5. Paladins. Powerhouses. Expensive on their own and will most certainly draw a lot of S8+ firepower, but at the same time have the potential to be extremely effective in a Coteaz list where you supoprt them with a load of AV12 and plasma/melta guns.

6. HQ's. Librarian, Coteaz, Grandmaster (of any variety) and Crowe. Choose 1 or 2 and watch them shape your army.

So out of all this you somehow have to build a coherent army. I didn't mention Strike Squads (which are actually almost mandatory) or a host of other acceptable options for making a competitive list. I seriously believe that a Coteaz list will will be one of the most competitive since we get cheap stuff with the points left over for tons of support, but as said earlier, there are far too many options to actually locate 1 superbuild and have it wipe the floor with everything. With a variation of good, competitive builds in 1 codex you are also changing the meta for your opponent...can they build an allcomers that has to contend with an AV12 wall, 50 infantry with 3+ cover saves, rhino rush purifiers etc, etc.

Yesterday I got the chance to play a game I was really looking forward to vs Grey Knights! My good friend just recently got back into the game and did a GK army with some of his usual incredible paint jobs. It put this issue to the test with 2 5th edition codices at a good points level.

I have been playing my Blood Angels army lately, as I like the theme of it and I was waiting to give him a go. We played 2K armies:

BA
Dante
Sanguinary Guard x5 fist melta pistol
Sanguinary Priest Jump Pack Melta Bombs Melta Pistol
Assault Squad 2x Meltaguns Fist Melta pistol Meltabombs x10
Assault Squad 2x Meltaguns Fist Melta pistol Meltabombs x10
Assault Squad 2x Meltaguns Fist Melta pistol Meltabombs x10
Tac Squad Pod Multimelta, Flamer, Power Weapon
Attack bikes Multi metla x2
Dreadnought Blood Talons Melta Flamer Extra Armor Pod
Dreadnought Blood Talons Melta Flamer Extra Armor Pod

GK
Librarian
Terminators x5 Halbred x2 Hammer
Terminators x5 Halbred x2 Hammer
Gunship Melta Assault Cannon
Gunship Melta Assault Cannon
Strike Squad x5 Hammer, Psicannon Psibolt Razorback
Strike Squad x5 Hammer, Psicannon Psibolt Razorback
Strike Squad x5 Hammer, Psicannon Psibolt Razorback
Strike Squad x5 Hammer, Psicannon Psibolt Razorback
Psiflemen
Psiflemen

As the game continued I realized this new marine army had THE answer to every single special rule and ability I had. It was shocking:

Feel No Pain: We are all power weapons
Decent of the Angels & Melta: Deep strike spell
Overwhelmed by mass attacks: instant I 10 spell
Jump pack speed and assault: Difficult and Dangerous Terrain spell
Speed: Alll Gk knights units move and fire, effective 30 inch range on every model
Melta for vehicles: Ceramite armor
Assault vehicles vulnerable to HtH: Gunships rear armor is still 12 (no assault S4(5) attacks even work, no grenades work, not even melta bombs)
Expensive gunships vulnerable: shrouding ads to speed save
GK don't have AT in troop squads: Psibolt
Dreads in Melle: Hammer w/ S10
Furious Charge +1 I: quicksilver

I was nearly tabled by games end in what was a close played battle for a seize and control mission. Look at the army lists. They are comparable in size and ability. But it's obvious the Grey Knights get loads of 'special' powers and pay no points for them or have any downsides as temper at all. They're nearly perfectly designed take all comers power houses.

Basic troops with marine statlines, power armor, power weapons, psychic powers and S5 storm bolters for < 20 points. It's completely absurd. GK strike models should be 25 points each at least.

Even if you think this is ok, or argue the builds are just a miss match (admittedly that's my fairly fluffy BA list), do you really want to make an army where the opponent MUST have psychic defense? Some armies can't even get any.

The GK codex is clearly advantaged, it plays itself and every unit has significant advantages they don't really pay anything for.


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Lukus83 wrote:Everyone seems to picked up on their weaknesses already:

1. Generally short ranged guns, though powerful.
2. Expensive basic troops
3. Even more expensive specialists

I want to offer some counterpoint to this:

(1) GK basic troops ALL have a 30 inch effective range and they move and fire. Every troop unit is at least the equivalent of a heavy bolter marine dev squad that moves and fires, AND they can crack light vehicles and fight in mellee...
(2) Not in proportion to all the other marines basic troops, see the example and compare a GK to a BA assault marine, clearly advantage GK.
(3) What do you need specialists for when the regular troops have an answer to everything? It's an optional novelty IMO.

Augustus that looks like an aweful matchup for your Blood Angels. Your longest range anti-tank is 24" on the 2 attack bikes. You literally have to be in his face in order to destroy a transport. and the contents can pile out and assault whatever just blew up their ride.

Next the 2 Stormravens have free rein of the whole battlefield. Your melta only has a shot to kill them (without the extr d6) after the stormravens have gotten so close to you (or you have to move rightnext to them) that they can drop the terminators into squishy non-vehicle units. Ouch.

I think you both would have a very different experience and outcome if your list was even a standard BA armor 13 spam. You can drop transports at 48" instead of 12" and watch the Strike squads flounder across the battlefield. His two dreads would be the only means of destorying your tanks until he got almost halfway across the battlefield (imagine a spearhead deployment which this GK list would almost have to go into reserve just to help close the gap).

Don't get me wrong the GK list is nice. I like it. It covers a lot of bases and your friend picked good combinations. I just think you brought a very short range army to a fight vs. another very short range army and it showed.

Augustus wrote:

Furious Charge +1 I: quicksilver

Maybe your friend should reread his Rule book as this would never happen. Quicksilver only works on his turn, not your. It likely not the only rule mistake he made that game.

GK aren't over powered, people are just stuck in the old Meta, and having trouble changing to the new.

Edit: Change of Meta a good thing, it should happen ever Codex.

Yeah, but if he had Halberds it would be a moot point as the GKs would still go first(I6)

Yes, but then those strike squad marines would cost 20 (base) + 5 (psybolt ammo) + 5 (halberd) = 30 points a piece and would still only have 1 attack.

In regards to Augustus his post, if you field a list without any reliable longer range transport popping power you are not fielding a list that will do much in todays meta game.

Augustus wrote:As the game continued I realized this new marine army had THE answer to every single special rule and ability I had. It was shocking:

Feel No Pain: We are all power weapons

Feel No Pain still works against all or almost all of the shooting from a typical GK army. Yes, GK beat Blood Angels in assault. Is that really unexpected?

Augustus wrote:Decent of the Angels & Melta: Deep strike spell

It's true that Warp Rift counters Deep Striking units fairly effectively, but so does deploying properly or going into reserves. Relying on Deep Striking units for your anti-tank was a bad choice even prior to Codex: GK.

Augustus wrote:Overwhelmed by mass attacks: instant I 10 spell

This can only be cast in your own turn, so doesn't work in half the assault steps-- most notably all the steps in which you are charged. Further it doesn't really effect mass attacks-- mass attack units such as horde Orks, IG power blobs, and the like don't care about what Initiative you are, since you're already higher than them.

Augustus wrote:Jump pack speed and assault: Difficult and Dangerous Terrain spell

Other armies can do very similar things. Ever run into a Venomthrope? A Thunderfire Cannon?

Augustus wrote:Speed: Alll Gk knights units move and fire, effective 30 inch range on every model

Other armies already have this and with better guns to boot. Hell, Space Marine bike armies move and fire with an effective 36" range for multi-meltas!

Augustus wrote:Melta for vehicles: Ceramite armor

If you're relying on melta to kill Stormravens you've already screwed up badly. They are a fast gunship unit. Further, strength 8 vs. AV 12 isn't exactly bad, especially since it's strength 8 AP 1. I have never had the ceramite armor rule affect my play at all.

Augustus wrote:Assault vehicles vulnerable to HtH: Gunships rear armor is still 12 (no assault S4(5) attacks even work, no grenades work, not even melta bombs)

Melta bombs are still strength 8+d6, aren't they? Besides, the only other assault vehicle in the game (the Land Raider) is also more or less immune to normal melee attacks. This isn't a unique element of the Grey Knights Codex. Besides, you play Blood Angels. If you think Stormravens are so good, take some of your own! If anything, the Codex: Blood Angels Stormraven is better, since it has AT missiles (good against almost every army) instead of anti-psyker missiles (highly situational).

Augustus wrote:Expensive gunships vulnerable: shrouding ads to speed save

True, this is a good combo. If you brought along psychic defense, though, it would be much less effective.

Augustus wrote:GK don't have AT in troop squads: Psibolt

Psybolt ammo doesn't really improve your AT capabilities at all, except maybe against Chimera side armor. Strength 5 storm bolters are not going to be reliable anti-tank, nor are strength 6 heavy bolters on Razorbacks.

Augustus wrote:Dreads in Melle: Hammer w/ S10

If they pass Hammerhand, which, again, can be mitigated by bringing psychic defense. This works extra well because Strike Squads are testing on leadership 8 or 9, not leadership 10, so your hood will have the advantage in dispelling their powers.

Augustus wrote:Furious Charge +1 I: quicksilver

This will literally never be a valid counter, since Quicksilver can only be used in your own turn.

Augustus wrote:Look at the army lists. They are comparable in size and ability. But it's obvious the Grey Knights get loads of 'special' powers and pay no points for them or have any downsides as temper at all. They're nearly perfectly designed take all comers power houses.

Uh, I wouldn't consider those two armies comparable at all. The first list, as you admitted in your own post, looks primarily themed, not oriented towards competitive play. It has literally zero long range anti-tank weapons! The second list looks moderately competitive, though rather unoptimized (why don't those terminators have heavy weapons?).

Augustus wrote:Basic troops with marine statlines, power armor, power weapons, psychic powers and S5 storm bolters for < 20 points. It's completely absurd. GK strike models should be 25 points each at least.

I disagree. After all, you lose all or almost all of those advantages when meching up. Storm bolters can't fire from transports, and when you jump out you'll likely be able to get within 12" anyway. GKSS seem like a quite underwhelming unit to me, and I personally don't think I would ever field them. They just fail to impress across all categories-- I suppose you could take a ten-man squad in a Rhino and fire two Psycannons out of the hatch, but that's absurdly inefficient when you could take five Purifiers to fulfill the same role. I've yet to see a Strike Squad layout that actually seems powerful to me in the context of a mechanized force. That said, they are rather impressive on foot.

When you get right down to it, I'd rather pay 16 points per model than 20 points per model for a unit that primarily scores and brings special/heavy weapons, especially when the cheaper unit has better special and heavy weapons.

Augustus wrote:Even if you think this is ok, or argue the builds are just a miss match (admittedly that's my fairly fluffy BA list), do you really want to make an army where the opponent MUST have psychic defense? Some armies can't even get any.

I agree that this is an issue with the Grey Knights codex. Then again, Dark Eldar generally seems to have the advantage against Grey Knights, and they don't have any psychic defense at all! Psychic defense strikes me as less than completely necessary against Grey Knight armies, though it is certainly a boon to have. And if you believe the 6th Edition rumors, especially the elements regarding stratagems, it will be a lot easier to counter hostile psychic powers in the future...