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There were a lot of GK lists at Wargamescon and they seemed to do well. Anytime Hank Edley does well in a tournament there has to be more than meets the eye. In the top spots I did not see purifier/dread spam, though I could have missed it. There seemed to be different lists using Stormravens for speedy delivery or Terminators in bolstered ruins with shrouding (2+ armor and 2+ cover). One thing for sure it seemed the techmarine with grenades was standard in each list. Once again I could have been missed one.

I am wondering if these players have hit upon a new power in the codex and metagame or can their success be attributed to the newness of the codex and a lack of familiarity with the units.

Quite possibly a bit of both.

There is a lot of room for variation whether it's henchmen spam, purifier spam, paladins, jump lists or a whole host of other things. It's going to take a while for all-comers lists to successfully shift and take into account these new builds. My thoughts anyway.

Its just a good codex. Many different ways to play them and filled with solid units and options while not being overpowered. I'm highly doubtful that a standard build will pop up.

I think its a bit of both, they're reasonably powerful, and new, and the GK do have a unique appeal to them.

Anytime Hank Edley does well in a tournament there has to be more than meets the eye.

Darth,

If anyone would know it would be you since a few of those wins back in the day came at your expense.

I was doing my best to channel my 2000-2006 40K-Fu at WarGamesCon. Follow the W.W.F.D principle,.. Appears it was not lost, only suppressed, and now once again unleashed and on display for another generation. Now just got to get Chua and Weeks back on the circuit and it will be like a sequel to Hot Tub Time Machine.

- Hank

GK codex IS a good codex. All of their units are "good" but none of them except for purifiers and all vehicles raise an eyebrow for overpowered.
Now, if everything in a codex is above average good and certain units are a super bargain, then what does that make the codex?

Food for thought.

I personally think more codices should be written like the GK one.

Imagine a 40K universe where all codices have powerful yet balanced units throughout all of the FOC slots. Imagine a large range of variation that could be competitive regardless of what you take because there is no junk, just different capabilities and different styles of play.

The GK codex appears overpowered because it lacks something most other codices have...a bad choice/several bad choices (IMHO).

I think their are some egregiously imbalanced things in the GK codex.

Why does the plasma funnel shut off burst weapons?
Why do Grey Knights have Techmarines?
Why does Psybolt amo work on things that aren't psykers and demons?
Why do all the troops cause ALL deep strike nearby to misshap completely?

These things don't match the narrative at all, and are creating imbalances in the game when they are used out of context. I wouldn't want to play a GK army that digs in ruins and gets 2++ saves with terminators? That's not what GKs are suppose to do. Psybolt amo is suppose to be for use against psykers and demons, the sudden prevalence of Quadracannon cybolt dreads is egregiously out of character for the army. Nemesis weapons are suppose to be effective versus psykers and demons, not general power weapons, ironically their not any better versus demons... etc.

Those kinds of things make the codex behave in ways during play that don't match the narrative or intent of the army. They are clearly oversights and show the typical GW lack of play testing, and general dis-respect for their own canon and general apathy toward the effect of overgeneralized sweeping rules.

It's a bad codex IMO, it's overpowered. I'm sure it sells well. Typical.

As a Tau player, who is friends with lots of other Tau players, I can honestly say that none of us care about the Plasma Syphon/Funnel thing. Its a situational piece of gear, and like all other situational gear, no one puts it in all-comers lists. And it's range is really short too.

As for the other stuff, most real complaints I hear about the army as a whole are fluff related, which to me doesn't really matter anymore, at least not since Space Wolves broke that mold years ago.

I understand that people really want all gear to fit the narrative, but when they do that then you end up with a Codex where a huge chunk of the wargear is never used, ever, because its too situational. I'm also a Sisters player, see the Wargear section of that Dex for several pages of examples of fluffy gear that no one ever uses.

As it is in the GK dex one of the things I saw during my first read through were pieces of gear/psykic powers/characters that I knew would never make it into any general lists, because they were only useful against a narrow field of targets (Daemons, psykers). Playing against Tau, Orks, Dark Eldar? (not exactly rare armies), well that stuff you paid points for is worthless. As a result anyone that plays games in a non-Tailoring atmosphere is not going to take that stuff. I don't understand why they would put even more of that stuff into a new Dex.

Creeping Dementia wrote:...anyone that plays games in a non-Tailoring atmosphere is not going to take that stuff. I don't understand why they would put even more of that stuff into a new Dex.

Right that makes sense actually. Why use 'good vs. demons only stuff'

Allow me to try and explain from a broader point of view though. The perspective of situational wargear makes a lot more sense when considered outside of the tournament environment. Furthermore, with some discretion and playtesting I suspect both could happen, as in their could be no options that cost points that were good versus only demons and still be codex unique rules that have a point versus ALL comers, some of which would be worth points.

A suggestion would be, psybolt amo be a special rule for all grey knights 'bolter' type weapons and ads +1 to wound vs. demons, possessed vehicles and psykers and is an army wide rule. There, done, this doesn't cost more points, doesnt handicapo the codex versus other armies, doesn't create any worthless wargear options that never get used, eliminates pages of psybolt amo rules, doesn't create an advantage vs nonliving vehicle units, and decreases recordkeeping while staying true to the narrative and may have a few fluffy side effects like versus Eldar and other psykers etc.

What we got instead was a bad rule, that made things like quadracannon dreads a new standard and more record keeping. See what I mean?

The plasma deal is the same way, so is the deep striking thing, why should that affect anything other than units arriving by demonic assault? It shouldn't, or if it does, it should be an upgrade to make it universal.

Anti demon powers suddenly became anti everyone powers, that's why it's a bad codex.

In response to the original question:

The GK codex is not overpowered. I think the newness of it scares people as they have not had quite enough time to come up with super effective counters for them yet. The only reason I can't consider the dex overpowered is because of the Jy2 report he just completed. A rather standard GK list got trounced by a Tau army. The newest dex was destroyed by the oldest dex. Now this is obviously an isolated incident, but I think it should at least say something to the supposed imbalance of the codex.

Its an army with different rules and advantages that when taken in the context of the greater viewpoint of all the codecies are rather tame.

I totally understand where you're coming from Augustus, but from my perspective things like that doesn't make a bad codex. It really just depends on why you play the game. Personally, I like the game, and the painting/modelling. I don't really get into the fluff much at all, and I avoid the '40k Background' forum here like its carrying the Bubonic Plague.

In my mind, the name of the upgrade is '+1Strength to this units shooting', Psybolt is just the codeword for it, so it doesn't really bother me. The same thing is true for me with the Deep Strike mishap stuff, the fact that they have Techmarines, etc, its just rules they have. It is a little annoying that Rifledreads are such a good no-brainer option in the Dex, but even that doesn't make it a bad Codex. The fact that I can run my 'no Vehicle' pure GK list and have it work well, while completely ignoring some obvious builds (Crowe/Coteaz/Dreads), is a sign that its a good Codex. Allowing multiple competitive builds IMO is a key to judging whether a Dex is 'good'. Also, the fact that its not extraordinarily difficult to beat a GK army with my other armies (Tau/Sisters) tells me that its not inherently overpowered, also a sign that its a good Dex.

Fluff wise? The Dex may be bad/horrible/abysmal, but I have no idea, thats not even on the radar for me.
Gameplay wise? Its not rolling over all other competitive armies easily, there are lots of different ways to play them, and do well at most point levels. That to me makes it a good Codex in the gameplay category.

Creeping Dementia wrote:...multiple competitive builds IMO is a key to judging whether a Dex is 'good'....

I agree by that criteria.

I just wanted to say that some of the things the grey knights do now aren't very grey knight ish. I suppose that doesn't necessarily matter.

I'm a player with 20 years history in the game, so I see things through colored glasses sometimes. What things are now is what they are, I suppose one can't expect them to always stay the same. Thanks for making points with me.

I agree that the whole Psyflemen thing is pretty silly (and way overestimated --- plain old psycannon dreads are pretty darn good!).

But it wasn't a mistake. GW did it wholly on purpose, to try cut down on rhino spam. Completely wrong way to solve the problem, but whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Creeping Dementia wrote:I totally understand where you're coming from Augustus, but from my perspective things like that doesn't make a bad codex. It really just depends on why you play the game. Personally, I like the game, and the painting/modelling. I don't really get into the fluff much at all, and I avoid the '40k Background' forum here like its carrying the Bubonic Plague.

In my mind, the name of the upgrade is '+1Strength to this units shooting', Psybolt is just the codeword for it, so it doesn't really bother me. The same thing is true for me with the Deep Strike mishap stuff, the fact that they have Techmarines, etc, its just rules they have. It is a little annoying that Rifledreads are such a good no-brainer option in the Dex, but even that doesn't make it a bad Codex. The fact that I can run my 'no Vehicle' pure GK list and have it work well, while completely ignoring some obvious builds (Crowe/Coteaz/Dreads), is a sign that its a good Codex. Allowing multiple competitive builds IMO is a key to judging whether a Dex is 'good'. Also, the fact that its not extraordinarily difficult to beat a GK army with my other armies (Tau/Sisters) tells me that its not inherently overpowered, also a sign that its a good Dex.

Fluff wise? The Dex may be bad/horrible/abysmal, but I have no idea, thats not even on the radar for me.
Gameplay wise? Its not rolling over all other competitive armies easily, there are lots of different ways to play them, and do well at most point levels. That to me makes it a good Codex in the gameplay category.

Crowe sucks, he's a honey pot for suckers, mark my words. The fact that purifier spam wasn't prevalent among the top lists, according to OP, I see as vindication on that. Anyone know where I can get some data on that?

But yes, there are many, many viable builds for GK (I have one that did pretty darn well for me here, http://prometheusatwar.com/2011/06/stormraven-and-land-raider-grey-knight-list-the-army-to-dominate-boston-brawlcon/)

I otherwise agree with almost everything you said. Except, in my old age, I do care at least a little about the fluff. In my opinion, the fluff is pretty awesome, if more than a little overblown, but it's not really reflected in the stat lines.

Prometheus,

I love using a stormraven and land raider together in my blood angel list. It's a great 1-2 punch and maybe you could do that with your GK's, but in another way. I read through your posts about the Boston Brawl and have you considered taking 2 stormravens and no land raider? I'd change the assault dread for a 2nd rifleman dread. As you said the assault dread underperformed since it wasn't venerable so save 5pts and make it a shooty dread with range. In the second stormraven you could flesh out the terminators or you could put 10 purifiers in there and grand strategy can make them scoring when needed.

gpfunk wrote:In response to the original question:

The GK codex is not overpowered. I think the newness of it scares people as they have not had quite enough time to come up with super effective counters for them yet. The only reason I can't consider the dex overpowered is because of the Jy2 report he just completed. A rather standard GK list got trounced by a Tau army. The newest dex was destroyed by the oldest dex. Now this is obviously an isolated incident, but I think it should at least say something to the supposed imbalance of the codex.

Its an army with different rules and advantages that when taken in the context of the greater viewpoint of all the codecies are rather tame.

your right every dex is placed as a massive overpowered juggernaut kindof like the idea of security as we create the threats by our views like tyrnaids was pegged to destroy and actually was very reasonanble.

Creeping Dementia wrote:As a Tau player, who is friends with lots of other Tau players, I can honestly say that none of us care about the Plasma Syphon/Funnel thing. Its a situational piece of gear, and like all other situational gear, no one puts it in all-comers lists. And it's range is really short too.

As for the other stuff, most real complaints I hear about the army as a whole are fluff related, which to me doesn't really matter anymore, at least not since Space Wolves broke that mold years ago.

I understand that people really want all gear to fit the narrative, but when they do that then you end up with a Codex where a huge chunk of the wargear is never used, ever, because its too situational. I'm also a Sisters player, see the Wargear section of that Dex for several pages of examples of fluffy gear that no one ever uses.

As it is in the GK dex one of the things I saw during my first read through were pieces of gear/psykic powers/characters that I knew would never make it into any general lists, because they were only useful against a narrow field of targets (Daemons, psykers). Playing against Tau, Orks, Dark Eldar? (not exactly rare armies), well that stuff you paid points for is worthless. As a result anyone that plays games in a non-Tailoring atmosphere is not going to take that stuff. I don't understand why they would put even more of that stuff into a new Dex.

People take the xenos inquisitor for the grenades, and even after the grenades a xenos inquisitor is still plenty cheap with plenty of room for a plasma siphon. The grenades work great against any army except gunlines such as ig or tau, in which case the xenos inquisitor is worthless without a plasma siphon. I would expect to see a siphon in any all comers list that already includes a xenos inquisitor. That being said you won't see one often because gk hq slots are crazy competitive with a lot of good options, and if you do see one as you said the range is short.

DarthDiggler wrote:Prometheus,

I love using a stormraven and land raider together in my blood angel list. It's a great 1-2 punch and maybe you could do that with your GK's, but in another way. I read through your posts about the Boston Brawl and have you considered taking 2 stormravens and no land raider? I'd change the assault dread for a 2nd rifleman dread. As you said the assault dread underperformed since it wasn't venerable so save 5pts and make it a shooty dread with range. In the second stormraven you could flesh out the terminators or you could put 10 purifiers in there and grand strategy can make them scoring when needed.

I'm really very, very happy with that list I linked to, and it worked well. The only change I've made in the list is to shift some points and add psycannon to the GKT squad. (without one, they feel a little useless when the LR does bite it)

I hate using duplicates of the same unit, if I can help it. "Redundancy" does not mean duplication. If you can find two different units to accomplish much the same task (such as SR and LR) that is awesome because variety gives you options.

I'm going to keep using the Land Raider because it's firepower is awesome, and it's very, very hard to stop. (There were some very bad dice with during Brawlcon, but that happens.).

No, I'm never going to use two psyflemen, eww. I'm surprised I'm using the one. To be honest, it's much more there to deal with DE raiders than rhinos. Don't have trouble with rhinos, psycannons work.

I'm absolutely convinced the GK codex is overpowered and agree it was done the wrong way.

In the last codex, the designers made a note. GK had several special anti-demon abilities that made them VERY effective at killing demons, but did nothing vs other armies. Rather than make them pay points for them, they just gave daemons the sustained assault rule, where their troops and beast units kept coming back after getting killed - albeit from the table edge, not deepstrike.

They should have done that again. Instead they made the weapons usable against everyone, and then STILL didn't make them pay the points for it.

Marine: Marine statline, bolter. 16 points.
Grey Knight: Marine statline, STORMbolter [way better, gives way more tactical options, can be upgraded to be able to glance rhinos and penetrate AV10 skimmers], anti-psychic leadership debuff, psychic power to increase strength, psychic power to destroy/delay/redirect deepstrike, anti-psyker grenades, and a POWER WEAPON, which is actually a force weapon once using another psychic power, but it's actually BETTER than a force weapon because it can insta-kill demons, too- activated or not - if they fail a ld test.
AND they get preferred enemy: demons, which includes things with the demon rule and other things outside the demons codex like defilers, obliterators, the avatar, and mandrakes.
....20 points.

So which....which of those abilities is worth 4 points, anyway? Can I buy my chaos marines power weapons for 4 points a model? What about the chosen? What about.....anything? Can an assault marine in a space marine army buy a power weapon for 4 points? Can I buy a psychic power that makes me S5 for 4 points? Can I get some psychic defense for any model in any army for just 4 points?

FOUR. POINTS. It's ridiculous. And have you seen what some basic death cult assassins do to marines? Take a bunch of squads consisting of 3 meltaguns and some deathcult assassins and drive around in chimeras. Go ahead, charge me. See what happens.

Then, for TEN points, you upgrade to a psycannon. Now I know for a fact if anyone allowed basic space marines to take an assault cannon for 10 points, people would complain. People would throw a FIT. So now we'll give them the same thing, but it's a point of strength higher and can fire on the move with half the number of shots.

....WHAT?

And we'll let their jump troopers take it too.

.....WHAT?!

And let's have a look at the incinerator purgation squad. But first, let's look at the CSM havoc squad outfitted the same way.

5 havocs, 4 flamers, rhino - 130 points. Deadly vs hordes. Decent vs marines, might cause a few wounds. Wooo.

5 Purgation squad, 4 incinerators, rhino - 140 points.

10 points more. Those 4 flamers are S6, not S4. They're AP4, not Ap5. The unit has ATSKNF. The unit has hammerhand. The unit has "you're behind a solid wall? I'll shoot anyway" psychic power. Preferred enemy: demons. Psych-out grenades. Their sergeant has a force weapon and a stormbolter, so he can instant-kill a hapless trygon that tries to charge the unit. Their rhino can ignore shaken and stunned results with a Ld 10 check.

Which of THOSE is worth 10 more points? It's not a problem of things in other codexes costing too much. I've never really had issue with the points costs of most chaos things, really. It's the crap like this that JUST. COSTS. TOO. LITTLE. and is way too good.

Augustus wrote:I just wanted to say that some of the things the grey knights do now aren't very grey knight ish. I suppose that doesn't necessarily matter.

I'm a player with 20 years history in the game, so I see things through colored glasses sometimes. What things are now is what they are, I suppose one can't expect them to always stay the same. Thanks for making points with me.

I know where you're coming from, Augustus. The codex seems to put a focus on stuff that clashes with the established vision of GKs. That's one of the things I give Phil K. credit for with DE...what's there now in terms of fluff, units and overall feel is a lot of what was there before, just...better.

But like you said, things change...and sometimes a lot with GW. GKs don't really fit the vision I had, but then I'm an opinion of one. With time I'll embrace Psyfleman dreads, etc as being a "GK thing." Probably helps that I'm a Tyranid player who's seen his army go through a codex progression of fast and deadly => slow hordey steamroller => Carnifex cavalcade => whatever it is today. *shrug*

@Augustus -

The biggest problem, from a Game Design point of view, in developing Grey Knights is that they're inherently supposed to be an 'anti-daemon' force.

The reason GK have all these tools that are great against the whole field is because in a point-based game, you simply cannot have one faction that is anti another faction without creating a huge imbalance for that anti-faction.

Grey Knights aren't always going to face daemons, and if you make the assumption that Daemons are priced appropriately, that leads to the following conundrum;

If you give them anti-daemon tools, that aren't good against everyone else, do you make them free, or do you make them pay for them?

If they have to pay for them, for what they're actually worth against daemons, you end up with a force that is fairly priced when fighting daemons, but that pays too many points for advantages that don't come into play against other codexes.

If you make the anti-daemon stuff 'free', you end up with a codex that is fairly priced against the rest of the field, and underpriced against daemons.

There is no good solution to this question, except, giving them tools that are good against daemon's special rules, but that are also good against everyone else. A good example of this is psybolt ammo. Daemon saves are invulnerable, so giving them better AP or something doesn't mean much, but giving them +1S means more wounds, and more saves. Volume of fire is what whittles down daemons. It also impacts everyone else though.

Why not give daemons sustained assault vs gk then, like before?
Eh? Eh?

Because their new design philosophy is that every book should stand as much on its own as possible. So adding new rules to one player's army based on the other player's army would fall outside that concept.

Henchman are the biggest issue. Coteaz is under priced by about 50 points. Add the ability to take a scoring unit of 3 Acolytes in a st 6 heavy bolter Razor that can ignore shaken and stunned for only 62 points total is out of control. The customizability of those units leads to brokenness. Death Cult Assassins, melta spam, crusaders to soak wounds, storm bolter Acolytes with Jokearo buffs, and all of this aided by IC's who make them even better.

Why even bother with Crowe when you can take a Libby, Coteaz, henchman, psyfleman, and pepper in some Purifiers as elites?

The over the top stuff besides henchman/Coteaz:

1. Fortitude- this is a game changer and really hurts anyone relying on stun lock to deal with multiple targets (which GK can do very well). I wouldn't have a problem with it's existence if it cost more than a whopping 5 points....

2. Psycannons- these are just incredible for 10 points. I just think that's too low, especially for units like Purifiers who can easily spam them. Not as bad on Strike squads but still very good.

3. Psyfleman- Again, just too few points for the immense boost they get.

4. Cleansing Flame- against hoards this is a little much. It would be one thing if it was GK's only answer to them...

5. Shrouding- 3+ cover saves are way too good, especially when it's easy to give multiple vehicles this buff.


The reasons GK haven't assumed the top spot:

1. Newness
2. Noob traps

GK are new and haven't been fully figured out yet, that's a given. However, the reason most players will suck with them is that there are tons of ways to waste points and make GK units overcosted. These are the noob traps. Synergy is especially effective in this book and players who don't take it into account will make especially bad lists. Still, good players who min max and build nasty lists will have take all comers potential that is almost unmatched.

gorgon wrote:I know where you're coming from, Augustus....Tyranid player who's seen his army go through a codex progression of fast and deadly => slow hordey steamroller => Carnifex cavalcade => whatever it is today. *shrug*

Hey thanks, makes me feel a little less old and alone.

I hear you on the Tyranid codex I have the same reaction there, I recall when it was suppose to be a very horde army and what a change the carnifex thing was, and now, I wouldn't even play the little bugs, not witht he combo melee morale fearless rules, it just gets them all (the biug ones too) killed when they fight together.

Ah well.

Some of the fun of the game is adapting to the dynamic parts as thihngs change, and new lists are exciting. I'll have to try and see it that way more. But the stodgy part of me doesn't want to when I see techmarine grey knights in ruins and 3x Psiflemen dreads...

EDITS:

gorgon wrote:That's one of the things I give Phil K. credit for with DE...what's there now in terms of fluff, units and overall feel is a lot of what was there before, just...better.

Exactly, the dark eldar didn't suddenly change into a static shooting army with big tanks and heavy armor, they kept their feel, in fact I think they were elegantly 5th editionized to coin a phrase. I'm not getting the same sense of craft and elegance from the Grey Knights dex at all.

Spellbound wrote:.....WHAT?!

IN so few words, well said Spellbound. I find my regular friend and I in combat often, he has a chaos army and on a point for point base his troopers are so outclassed compared to mine when I play my 5th ed codex aarmies (Blood Angels and Space Wolves) against him, even the vanilla marines do pretty well, (free weapon options for full size squads), he would love something like that. I guess this is just codex creep all over again. The Chaos dex needs some help doesn't it?

Redbeard wrote:Because their new design philosophy is that every book should stand as much on its own as possible. So adding new rules to one player's army based on the other player's army would fall outside that concept.

Maybe so, but what they did with GK is much worse. If you assume that a) GK are costed fairly to fight other codices than Daemons, and b) Daemons are costed fairly to fight other codices than GK, then what is the result of GK having extra awesome powers and special rules against Daemons, which they do? Daemons bite it against GK. If GW wanted to give GK the flavor benefits of special rules which make them even nastier against Daemons, then they had to give daemon armies something to compensate in those games, or throw balance in that matchup right out the window. And we see which option they chose, sadly.

---------

All of the above, of course, assuming that you think GK are costed fairly vs. other codices. Which I'm not entirely convinced of, even if I'm not at Spellbound-levels of incredulity.

JGrand wrote:Henchman are the biggest issue. Coteaz is under priced by about 50 points. Add the ability to take a scoring unit of 3 Acolytes in a st 6 heavy bolter Razor that can ignore shaken and stunned for only 62 points total is out of control. The customizability of those units leads to brokenness. Death Cult Assassins, melta spam, crusaders to soak wounds, storm bolter Acolytes with Jokearo buffs, and all of this aided by IC's who make them even better.

Why even bother with Crowe when you can take a Libby, Coteaz, henchman, psyfleman, and pepper in some Purifiers as elites?

The over the top stuff besides henchman/Coteaz:

1. Fortitude- this is a game changer and really hurts anyone relying on stun lock to deal with multiple targets (which GK can do very well). I wouldn't have a problem with it's existence if it cost more than a whopping 5 points....

2. Psycannons- these are just incredible for 10 points. I just think that's too low, especially for units like Purifiers who can easily spam them. Not as bad on Strike squads but still very good.

3. Psyfleman- Again, just too few points for the immense boost they get.

4. Cleansing Flame- against hoards this is a little much. It would be one thing if it was GK's only answer to them...

5. Shrouding- 3+ cover saves are way too good, especially when it's easy to give multiple vehicles this buff.


The reasons GK haven't assumed the top spot:

1. Newness
2. Noob traps

GK are new and haven't been fully figured out yet, that's a given. However, the reason most players will suck with them is that there are tons of ways to waste points and make GK units overcosted. These are the noob traps. Synergy is especially effective in this book and players who don't take it into account will make especially bad lists. Still, good players who min max and build nasty lists will have take all comers potential that is almost unmatched.

Reasons they have not made it to the top.

The ability to take a scoring unit of 3 Acolytes in a st 6 heavy bolter Razor that can ignore shaken and stunned for only 62 points total is 2 kill points for 3 GEQ and an AV11 vehicle. 1/3 games will be KP based, so in a 6 game tournament 4 victories + 2 losses= 4 ties + 2 wins= just above middle of the pack.

Customization of acolytes does not = brokenness. If there was 1 broken build everybody would be taking it, but there are multiple competitive builds. Are you saying every single build of henchmen is broken? If you have a beef against 1 particular build of henchmen make the case, but saying the customization is what breaks henchmen will only trap you into defending a straw man argument.

GK HQ units are absolutely uberlicious, but force org limits them to 2. They also get real expensive really fast, except the inquisitors.

Fortitude millage may vary. In a gun line henchmen army with razorspam versus IG or DE then Fortitude can be game winning. Against armies with psychic defense such as eldar, SW, or BA fortitude is of limited use and hardly the end of the world. Fortitude is only out of control against select armies with select builds.

Purifiers are psycannons are 36 points a pop, and they lose their power weapons. Still a great unit, but keep in mind that 10 point psycannon has hidden costs.

Psyfleman are an great deal, but it's the only long range option GK have besides BS3 monkeys.

Cleansing flame...purifiers are all around nasty. Purifier spam is a hard counter to cc hordes. Purifier spam is also likely to get eaten alive by very fast shooty armies such as IG or DE.

Shrouding is overrated.
Rhino pops smoke while shrouded for a 3+ cover=shoot a different target, and next turn it only has a 6+ cover save.
Rhino pops smoke while not shrouded for a 4+ cover save=shoot a different target, and next turn it has no cover save.
Purifiers in cover have a 3++ cover because of shrouding=shoot ap5 weapons at them an take chances with their 3+ armor, and shoot the AP3 or better weapons at units out in the open.
Purifiers in cover have a 4++ cover because they are in cover=shoot ap5 weapons at them an take chances with their 3+ armor, and shoot the AP3 or better weapons at units out in the open.
It's amazing how little shrouding does when you keep basic 40k tactics and target priorities in mind.

GK are a mean and nasty codex that is far better than any 4th ed codex, but you can say the same about almost every 5th ed codex. Six out of seven of other 5th ed books are still competitive against GK.

For those convinced grey knights are broken:
I used to think the same way but a few things become apparent after having played them/ seen them played. heres a few things i noticed:

First, and this is a big one- GK, with the the exception of purifiers, have ONE ATTACK at a mediocre WS and the same save as any other marine. if you charge them with a unit that will beat up marines they will most likely beat up GK too. you may be thinking what about hammer hand? Well if they use hammer hand they aren't using warp quake or their force weapons thus it behooves you to keep track of power usage.

As to the cheap weapon upgrades keep in mind that power armored marines must give up their wonderful force weapon in order to take a heavy weapon making them a liability in close combat. so you could also look at it as paying extra points to make them bad at combat. I would charge a purgation squad just as often as i would a devastator squad given the chance (which in case you're wondering is every time) As a side note spell bound in your example with the havocs they get to keep their bp & ccw on the guys with flamers; very hand for the following close combat especially considering the kind of unit you would be using 4 flamers on.

3. another thing to keep in mind is that alot of their cool toys have little to no effect on daemons. Think about it; all daemons have eternal warrior and most don't have an armor save so the GK might as well be using pointy sticks against daemons. even the daemonbane rule isnt that big of a deal since most multi-wound daemons are ld 10. Their aegis is completely pointless since daemons don't have psychic powers. their main bonus is preferred enemy but that doesn't guarantee a win in close combat.

Theres probably other points i could make but i am a horrendously slow typer so ill call it there

Remember that sustained assault was pretty worthless, since you had to move on from your own table edge if I remember right. Which generally meant you had slow melee demon units walking on the board on turn 2 or 3 and accomplishing little.

I'd say prefered enemy and hammerhand with halberds is quite dangerous, on top of stormbolters being quite dangerous against most demon units.

Mannahnin wrote:
Maybe so, but what they did with GK is much worse. If you assume that a) GK are costed fairly to fight other codices than Daemons, and b) Daemons are costed fairly to fight other codices than GK, then what is the result of GK having extra awesome powers and special rules against Daemons, which they do? Daemons bite it against GK. If GW wanted to give GK the flavor benefits of special rules which make them even nastier against Daemons, then they had to give daemon armies something to compensate in those games, or throw balance in that matchup right out the window. And we see which option they chose, sadly.

I agree. I've got 20,000 points of daemons painted and playable in just about any configuration, and I could use all of it and lose to a GK player with 1000 points and a good grasp of geometry. There is no good way to have a faction that is specifically anti another faction in a system where all-comer games need to be considered and that points are used to set up the armies.

I don;t think that there's "no good way", though. I think a better-considered version of what they had last time could well have worked. If Daemons did get some form of Sustained Assault, or Preferred Enemy, or SOMETHING in their games against GKs, it would have improved the situation. You just need to keep it relatively simple.