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I'm not convinced GK are heads and shoulders above the rest. There are so many expensive units that once I make a list to cover all the bases I'm over by 150pts. Something has to give. GK also suffer from range envy. Their guns are outranged by most other lists.

One thing they have going good for them is the Stormraven + Shrouding combo can deliver an assault element across the table. However that assault element will be outnumbered something fierce and the combined unit will be 600-700pts.

I think the GK have new toys and tactics and in the end they will take their place near the top, but they will not jump ahead and outpace the field.

As for Daemons I think they will need to change to combat the GK. Blessing of the Blood God can be a back breaker vs. GK and their low model count list. A Khorne DP with iron hide, wings and bessing is something to fear vs. GK's. Warp Quake doesn't cover the board nearly as much because Paladins, Terminators, Purifiers and Dreads are eating up points.

Blessing of the Blood God can be a back b....oh wait Dark Excommunication, you lose blessing. So sorry!


And as for "just shoot something else if they give the rhino a 3+ cover" - that's.....eh? Ok? We're getting into player skill here but if they've put that rhino on the game-winning objective, it's kind of important that THAT rhino dies, not just any rhino.

Spamming little units of henchmen in S6 heavy bolter razorbacks a detriment in kill points? Not if the enemy is dead. Especially if now you have lots of 1-2 model units running around. Congrats you got kp for my tank. Wanna use your 200 points of marines to shoot my one guy? KP are KP but point-for-point you're wasting your firepower.

Strikes have 1 attack this is true.

10 strikes charge - 20 attacks.

Techmarine attaches to squad, rolls grenades, gets....something, I dunno. You're either doing nothing, re-rolling misses against the enemy, hitting automatically, or a portion of the enemy is attacking themselves instead of you. Or they're Ld 2 so if you win combat they're toast.

Rad grenades bring the enemy's toughness down by 1, you hammerhand for S5. Now you can't activate your force weapons! Who the hell cares they're 1 wound enemy infantry. 20 attacks 10 hit 2+ to wound, 8 die. Oh wait two had psycannons. Meh, whatever, only 7. They get their attacks back, sure. Let's assume it's an assault squad. 20 attacks back, 10 hit, 5 wound, 2 fail saves. Yeah that's not one-sided at all!

Ok, it's a monstrous creature. Let's assume it's not a psyker like a tyrant or tervigon or a daemon prince. 20 attacks, 10 hit, one of them should be a wound - activate force weapons instead of doing hammerhand, creature dead. That was easy!

Ok, daemon prince. It's I1 so you go first. 20 attacks, 10 hit, re-roll preferred enemy, 5 more hit for 15. It's down 1 toughness and you use hammerhand for a 3+ to wound. 10 out of 15 wound and you ignore the armour save. Make 10 5+ invul saves. Ok we'll say you're Tzeentch, make 10 4+ invul saves. Oops, you took 5 wounds.


A basic strike squad is enough to ravage anything. I mentioned you could apply the grenade results but that's really not even necessary. You should still get a 6 to wound a monstrous creature and you will kill 5 marines instead of 7-8 needing the 3+. I didn't even actually factor in the psychotroke grenades, only rad and it makes only marginal difference. Losing rad grenades in the daemon prince example brings it down to about 6-7 wounds instead of 10, but that's still pretty dead if they have a 5+ save and not out of the question if it's a tzeentch prince for 4+. And they're always going to do whatever they can to make sure those grenades ARE in the combat, so...

Oh, and they could have shot before charging. With 16 stormbolter shots [S5] and 4 psycannon shots.

Now the immediate argument is "but that unit costs a lot of points". I was assuming I was charging space marines, but it could be any flavor of space marine. It could be a terminator squad, where they'd have fewer number [and the attack yourself psychotroke grenade becomes hilarious] and still take heavy casualties. They could be vanguard veterans, or perhaps a command squad. Hope that command squad isn't home to a Librarian or anything. Or there you go, you could be charging Mephiston. Or the Avatar. Or a Seer council. Or genest.....ok that'd be a mistake. Why didn't you gun them down with vastly superior firepower then?

Of course this is an idealized situation [GK charging - that NEVER happens right?.....right?] but it's not a lot better if I charge. I'm having a hell of a time with my blood angels. Sure I get more attacks at higher initiative, but my army starts peetering out FAST from all those power weapon wounds. Against most things, I'm still spess muhrines so even when I'm down to 3 or 4 guys, I can still be a deadly charge and be effective. Against GK, not so much. I do a couple casualties, and then the fact that they're all armed with POWER WEAPONS means those odd 3-4 wounds back that they get is 3-4 DEAD marines, not just 1 or none on a good armor save roll.

Back to the Purgation squad example, you're telling me that because the grey knights have 4 less attacks, it's balanced? Two of their attacks became power weapon attacks. No, FORCE weapon attacks. The unit gained the ability to instant-kill Mephiston, a tervigon, a hive tyrant, etc. etc. if that guy rolls a 6 to wound. Know what the havocs get if they get 4 6's to wound from those extra attacks? They get.....to watch the enemy shrug off 3-4 of them with armor saves. How often have you hung your head as your enemy passed all their armor saves when you got a lucky wound roll? A thing like a power weapon is mega game-changing because it takes away that chance. "No, I don't care how lucky you are, I got a wound, so you are dead." And really, how much of the enemy is going to be left after 4 S6 flamers? A lot fewer than the 4 S4 flamers, so those 4 cc attacks are really pretty trivial.

Oh, and the Purgation squad has 4 fewer attacks, but all their attacks can be S5. Pretty even trade.

No one takes Dark Excommunication. It can only be used in base to base contact with a librarian of dreadknight. Purifiers, strike squads, interceptors, paladins, and terminators don't have it and can't get it.

Maybe you should play with a grey knight army. If you don't win all your games who would you blame?

Draigo has it as well, I believe. And nobody takes Librarians or Dreadknights, I mean NOBODY.

I win the vast majority of my games now. My only losses come from tournaments, and with my chaos army, my only losses usually came from leafblower IG if they went first and had good luck [anything less and I can pull out a tie]. Oh and grey knights, which basically sit there and roll dice.

"Yeah we out-shoot you, so we'll just stand here. Oh...Oh you want to charge? Oh, I'm sorry" *butcher butcher butcher* "You really should have let us shoot you, you'd only have been tabled in 5 turns then, not 3."

My BA have proven to not do as well, because I chose to run them as jumpers. My chaos army is all mechanized so I wanted something different. BA razorspam is probably the way to go [though I defeated it in round 7 of the con with 30 points, so maybe that's too general of a statement].

Same army was easily slapped aside by GK though, without much of a concern for their own safety. Had I not forgotten which objective was primary and which was secondary I could have gotten him simply by him taking a very very tiny army and not having enough units to take the objectives. All I could kill of his was dreadnoughts and the stormraven he handed to me though, so he had little to worry about.

Spellbound wrote:

And as for "just shoot something else if they give the rhino a 3+ cover" - that's.....eh? Ok? We're getting into player skill here but if they've put that rhino on the game-winning objective, it's kind of important that THAT rhino dies, not just any rhino.

Spamming little units of henchmen in S6 heavy bolter razorbacks a detriment in kill points? Not if the enemy is dead. Especially if now you have lots of 1-2 model units running around. Congrats you got kp for my tank. Wanna use your 200 points of marines to shoot my one guy? KP are KP but point-for-point you're wasting your firepower.


Rad grenades bring the enemy's toughness down by 1, you hammerhand for S5. Now you can't activate your force weapons! Who the hell cares they're 1 wound enemy infantry. 20 attacks 10 hit 2+ to wound, 8 die. Oh wait two had psycannons. Meh, whatever, only 7. They get their attacks back, sure. Let's assume it's an assault squad. 20 attacks back, 10 hit, 5 wound, 2 fail saves. Yeah that's not one-sided at all!


Back to the Purgation squad example, you're telling me that because the grey knights have 4 less attacks, it's balanced? Two of their attacks became power weapon attacks. No, FORCE weapon attacks. The unit gained the ability to instant-kill Mephiston, a tervigon, a hive tyrant, etc. etc. if that guy rolls a 6 to wound. Know what the havocs get if they get 4 6's to wound from those extra attacks? They get.....to watch the enemy shrug off 3-4 of them with armor saves. How often have you hung your head as your enemy passed all their armor saves when you got a lucky wound roll? A thing like a power weapon is mega game-changing because it takes away that chance. "No, I don't care how lucky you are, I got a wound, so you are dead." And really, how much of the enemy is going to be left after 4 S6 flamers? A lot fewer than the 4 S4 flamers, so those 4 cc attacks are really pretty trivial.

Oh, and the Purgation squad has 4 fewer attacks, but all their attacks can be S5. Pretty even trade.

The only way a Rhino will have a 3++ cover next to an objective on turn 5 is if the GK player has not popped smoke yet on the Rhino and the Librarian is still alive and is inside or within 6" of the Rhino, so if it happens it's because the GK player out played his opponent. If a player ends up in that situation what it comes down to is that player had 4 turns to kill that rhino where it at best had a 6++ cover save, and being close to the librarian that Rhino should have been a priority target earlier in the game.

S6 bolterbacks will struggle against AV12 IG if the IG player refuses to allow the GK player to outmaneuver him into gaining side shots. When they explode the GEQ units inside are T3 with a 5+ save and most importantly a leadership of 8. If a SM player shoots at them with 200 points of marines they deserve to lose. A simple storm bolter from a rhino or drop pod has enough dakka to force a small group of henchmen to take a morale test.

Rad grenades can bring toughness down to 1. Grats the unit of S3 WS3 5+ armor save GEQ are now T1 and the mean scary S5 GK are going to wound them on a 2+, because that's so much worse than being wounded on a 2+ when S5 goes against T3. A pair of GK HQ's can make the mother of all deathstars, which is pretty damn useless if 10 melta vets is the toughest CC unit the other side fields.

Quad flamer Purgation are great all around squads, but they compete with psyfleman dreads in an army that already lacks long ranged firepower. Long fangs are far better than Purgation squads because GK and SM don't really need another decent CC unit that has amazing point blank firepower.

So what you're saying with the Purgation squad is "Yeah they're completely undercosted and utterly broken, but they won't usually take them so that's a moot point."

And yeah, rad grenades in cc versus guard only means that the GK don't need to use their hammerhand whatsoever. Now they just don't have to take the chance of perils and cause instant death with their base attacks, provided any guard lived through the S5 stormbolters in the first place.

I'll give you that guard is a fairly rough matchup for GK. But I've seen them take as much anti-marine as possible and still lose to a smartly constructed GK army that fixed its main problem: Take more dudes.

Augustus wrote:I think their are some egregiously imbalanced things in the GK codex.

Why does the plasma funnel shut off burst weapons?
Why do Grey Knights have Techmarines?
Why does Psybolt amo work on things that aren't psykers and demons?
Why do all the troops cause ALL deep strike nearby to misshap completely?

1: because Burst weapons use plasma. but who cares? it only works within a very small area and is expensive, no one is going to take one in a competitive game.

2. well, why not? they have vehicles just like every other chapter. Serfs only can do so much.

3. because it is the psychic power of the GK improving the power of the shot. increased force and penetrating power is simply achieved through psychic means. it can hurt anything. its no different from a psyker hurling some warp lightining at someone.

4. because they can cause things to scatter off course using their psychic abilities. Teliportation involves the Warp so their powers can cause direct interference. Drop Pods and jump packs can have their thrusters messed with. it wouldn't be fair to the GKs, or Deamons, for the power to only effect Deamons. This power is all that bad. sure you can totally screw a deamon player over but that would require a bit of list tailoring to do(Scouting Strikes or Interceptors forward and spread out. and it requires 2 Grandmasters to pull it off reliably so thats a fair chunk of your army)

I've found that the majority of people complaining about gk's are either using armies from the older codexs (which were already having problems against other armies to begin with), or are average players relying on the cookie cutter builds they read online and can't figure out how to adapt their lists to make them work against a new codex. Heard way too many sw and ig players complain about de last year; despite the fact that you always had a good 50/50 shot at winning. Adjusted builds hit the web, then those complaints went away. The same thing will happen here. The only ones who are getting screwed are the older armies that have trouble in the massive spam that is 5th edition. That will pass in time as well.

If gk's knock sw and ig players off the top slots and consistently win tournament after tournament, then you can complain about how overpowered they are. I wouldn't hold your breath though

and even if Gks knock IG and SW off the top, who cares?

just the IG and SW players.

its just the normal power shift that comes with almost every new codex. GKs will swing back down to the bottom eventually.

so collecting deamons was a bad idea? :(
Not played many or any big games only just got
1000pts of deamons and getting my head round how unreliable they are but after reading you guys ranting about GK's specialy the bit about making all deepstrikes scatter! Well nackers to it I'll stay in the warp when GK turn up
Or is it a case that they need to tune there army depending on foe?
Second thing, do you guys think and army of PlazCannon weilding Marines( CC troops in razors, Devastator plus sterns in rhinos backed up by cheap 70pts Preds would do a number on these toffy nosed GKs ?

Deamons arn't any worse against GKs then any other army.

only a Warp Quake tailored army will completely screw deamons and it does require a good chunk of your army to do it right(2 Grandmasters and 4 strike or interceptor squads)

If your definition of "completely screw" is automatically win with no dice being rolled, then yeah.

If your definition of "screw" is just make it extremely difficult for the Daemon player to win, assuming equal player skill, the GK just needs to take his regular stuff and use it right. Even a single Strike Squad, spread out, bones daemon deployment a good deal.

Darth- Coteaz comes with Dark Excommunication. So every army using multiple squads of Henchmen has it. For any army using a Librarian it's a 5pt silver bullet. Why not take it? You see daemon armies in tournaments.

I've never said that GK are totally broken or head and shoulders above all other codices. I do think that they are obviously unbalanced against daemons, as I believe my earlier argument made clear, and that they have a number of clearly underpriced upgrades and abilities. Like psy-ammo, Fortitude, rad and psych-out grenades. I agree with you that their limited long range shooting and higher base cost per model are drawbacks and keep them from being utterly busted. But they're pretty nasty. Especially since Coteaz has a way of helping you make a rounded army without going over by those 150pts.

Yeah it requires them to take a solid, standard HQ with lots of utility and effectiveness. On the downside, it also requires them to bring their basic troop choice that gets 40+ points of rules and equipment for free and completely dominates pretty much every other troop choice in the game easily.


Despite this, I will not say don't play daemons. I will not say daemons can't capitalize on mistakes and win against GK. Many GK will do things like purifier spam, etc. etc. which is honestly horrible versus daemons [depending on the flavor of demon the purifiers get in cc with]. What it WILL do is give you a hefty challenge, one you can feel very, VERY rewarded by when you DO claim a victory.

As for Warp Quake, it does not make you auto-scatter. What it does is the following:

A) Your icons don't work anymore if it's within 12" of someone who uses the psychic power and

B) If you should land within 12" of someone that used the power, whether by scattering there or placing it there and rolling a hit, then you automatically mis-hap. You then will either 1-2: die 3-4 get placed where your opponent wants you or 5-6: go back in reserves.

It requires you to deepstrike far away from them [relatively] and then run in. Honestly you don't want to land within 12" anyway per se, as they could then move up, shoot you, then charge you. Daemonettes still, if charging, go before grey knights and carve them up. Bloodletters, while they'll die in droves, will still ignore their armour saves. Bolts of change will still kill dreadnoughts and the Masque will still move units around. Most of your abilities still WORK and grey knights still DIE. They're just VERY effective at killing YOU so get ready for an uphill battle.

Well they could look alittle better maybe lol the B@§%@£ds but then everybody likes to kill the unbeatable hey or nearly unbeatable

If you don't hav unbalance between the codexes then where do you start to update them? Maybe they just raised the bar for the other dexes to catch up. I hate having the best army, hurts more when you lose! Give me the underdogs so I can throw there lives away in the chase of a great victory


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And 'blessing of the blood god' must hurt them up close with a 2+ invulnerable save against psychic powers or force weapons?
suppose getting there is the challenge

I think the best thing about Grey Knights is that they can have a pure shooty list but because everything has str 5 power weapons it becomes a balanced list. Alot of people are afraid to assault because of 2 halberds but they fail to realize its just 2 attacks.

IMO GK armies are, when put together properly, basically even with all of the other 5th edition codexes (with the exception of Nids, which GW apparent hates).

When DE came out, everyone cried about them being overpowered. When SW came out, everyone whined about them too. Gk are just as good as those books in their own way.

The main problem with the actual GK armies that you see in tournaments and battle reports is that they are not actually very good armies. People keep trying to make CC GK armies, use purifiers and strike squads in rhinos, take lots of paladins, and spend way too many points on cool upgrades (like halberds in strike squads) that aren't really worthwhile in the long run, all of which are mistakes in my opinion.

Almost all of the units in the codex have competitive uses (with paladins, land raiders, some of the henchmen, and some of the named characters being the "worse" units in the book, and honestly very few/none of those are actually "bad"), the problem if that people haven't figured out / agreed on what those uses are, or just haven't built the armies yet. Once they do, i expect GK to take a strong place with the rest of the 5th ed codexes like SM, SW and DE.

When all the dust settles here is how I see it.

GK<IG, DE
GK=SW, Codes Marines
GK>BA, Nids
GK WTF>>>>>Chaos Daemons

The only army that is completely 100% screwed by GK is daemons provided the GK has 1 squad of SS or interceptors that can CS.

That being said I can see why GK thinks it's good business practice to screw chaos daemons.

Let's look at some basic facts about chaos daemons.

Players can base chaos daemons with magnets in multiple ways for easy conversion between WHFB and 40k so you get 2 armies for the price of 1 (which means GW is giving away a 2nd army anytime somebody purchases chaos deamons.)

Chaos daemons and Vampire counts were the most powerful armies in WHFB 7th edition. It got to the point where it was a common sight to see 85% of a competitive tournament show up with daemons and vampire counts despite WHFB having a larger number of armies to select from than 40k.

Many of the best units in WHFB were the best units in 40k, mainly flamers, bloodcrushers, and fiends. One of the most broken armies back in WHFB 7th edition was a giant wall of bloodcrushers. Throw in a Lord of Change as fateweaver and it turns into fatecrusher, what is probably one of the most respected deamon builds. The only units a WHFB player really needs to purchase for 40k is stuff for their heavy support slots because deamon princes were the uncontested worst lord selection in WHFB.

Chaos daemons were competitive in 40k , but never top tier in 40k, and they were stupid overpowered in WHFB 7th ed. If you look at the personalty types of WHFB chaos deamon players they are not the type to play a 4th ed book in a competitive game of 40k, and are the most likely to codex hop onto what they believe is the most powerful 40k codex as their main most powerful army. Chaos daemons could crush just about anything in WHFB 7th ed that wasn't another deamon army or Vampire Counts. As a result WHFB players have an irrational hatred of daemons and vampires that lasts now to this day. Many of them to this day refuse to play against chaos daemons, and will openly mock the use of chaos daemons as a sign of being unskilled. Many of them quite the tournament seen because they were sick of chaos daemons, and many of them quite the game during 7th ed because their armies were useless against chaos daemons. Things have calmed down a bit in WHFB, but daemons are still the #1 top tier army.

In short chaos daemons killed WHFB 7th edition. When 8th ed came out other armies could now stand a chance against them, but GW took a lot of backlash over the massive changes going into 8th ed from 7th ed, and most of the damage caused by chaos daemons was already done. It's quite possible that GW deliberately decided to make daemons worthless against GK in an attempt to rescue WHFB from the damage daemons have done. Honestly I see it as a logical and pragmatic choice to completely sacrifice a single 40k codex on the nerf alter in an attempt to save all of WHFB which has 15 armies, scenery, and a core rule book. If you ask me the risk of deamon players completely quitting 40k as a game (which is not that bad imo because most deamon players are codex hoppers that have daemons as an extra army) is worth the reward of saving WHFB from the same fate that lord of the rings now suffers.

wow.....really?

You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high? You think 4 extra points for all the extra stuff a GK strike gets over a tactical marine is fair and "not that much better"? Really?

GK are incredibly powerful....

Psycannons are extremely underpriced. 4 S7 Autocannon shots that rend? All I have to do is stand still? Sign me up. Once GK get to midfield they easily out-shoot any army in the game.

Purifiers are all sorts of broken. Cleansing Flame is too much.

Fortitude for 5 pts? Really? Cheaper than extra armour, but why?

Psyflemen Dreads, +1 str for 5 points? Ridiculous. In my experience using them they have far outperformed my Long Fangs who pack 5x Missiles per squad.

Librarian's powers are undercosted. 5 points for shrouding? A smart player with a good size mech force can make sure his vehicles consistently have a 3+ cover save by being meticulous about how he moves and pops smoke. It's just too much. Sanctuary is slowed. It bones anything without grenades (Nids) and seriously hampers anyone trying to assault. This is huge as it allows the GK player to truly sit and shoot.

Henchmen spam is disgusting. Someone earlier said that a 3 man hench squad with a razor isnt effective because you will automatically lose a KP game. This is absolutely false. The fact of the matter is that a good GK player can take these 62 point scoring squads to round out his list and maximize his objective capturing potential. The increased killpoints are meaningless because these squads have such low target priority in any mission. If you decide to shoot at the henchmen squads with their razorbacks, good luck. A covered vehicle is never easy to destroy, covered troops even if they are T3 are also not THAT easy to destroy. I mean how many armies really pack a large amount of long-range anti-infantry? IG, sure. Most marines? Not so much. Shooting the puny 3 man squad also means you are ignoring the psyflemen dreads and all the other goodies the GK player is capable of bringing along. Henchmen overpower the codex because it allows the GK player to bring as many bodies as any other MEQ player, if not more.

Mike Brandt (the guy running the NOVA) posted a good article on his blog Whiskey and 40k. In it he considers a core that any GK player can take. That core is:
Coteaz
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
5 Acolytes w/ Storm Bolters, Psyback
Psyfleman
Psyfleman
Psyfleman

The list now has maximum amount of troops, 9 vehicles and quite a bit of long-range anti tank and capable AND reliable long range anti-infantry, oh and it also only takes up about 1,000 pts. With the leftover 1000 you can take 3 BIG purifier squads, Paladins, elite HQS, etc. Good luck beating this list.

Spellbound wrote:wow.....really?

You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high? You think 4 extra points for all the extra stuff a GK strike gets over a tactical marine is fair and "not that much better"? Really?

If you judge the books purely on SS versus tacticals GK win. When you look at how the lists as a whole work it's a pretty even fight. Null zone + bolters=bad news for DCA. TH/SS termies + Null zone=bad news for paladins. TH/SS termies=bad news for purifiers. While tactical marines have always been the weak link in the codex the book is actually competitive as whole.

Spellbound wrote:You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high?

Heh, exactly. Loved your examples!

Oh and people whined about SW and Dark ELdar being better than everyone else, because... They are... and now so are GKs.

Augustus wrote:

gorgon wrote:I know where you're coming from, Augustus....Tyranid player who's seen his army go through a codex progression of fast and deadly => slow hordey steamroller => Carnifex cavalcade => whatever it is today. *shrug*

Hey thanks, makes me feel a little less old and alone.

I hear you on the Tyranid codex I have the same reaction there, I recall when it was suppose to be a very horde army and what a change the carnifex thing was, and now, I wouldn't even play the little bugs, not witht he combo melee morale fearless rules, it just gets them all (the biug ones too) killed when they fight together.

Ah well.

Some of the fun of the game is adapting to the dynamic parts as thihngs change, and new lists are exciting. I'll have to try and see it that way more. But the stodgy part of me doesn't want to when I see techmarine grey knights in ruins and 3x Psiflemen dreads...

I think anyone who remembers when GKs were a specialist ally unit will be particularly biased. GKs as an army was a bridge we crossed a long time ago, but clearly these GKs are even less specialized than the Codex: DH version. So it probably hits home for an old-timer more than someone who started since 2002 or 2003. Not saying they shouldn't be an army or that they shouldn't be more of an all-comers army for balance purposes, of course. It's just a little jarring in its execution.

I still wonder if -- assuming there's some truth to the 6th ed rumors -- Daemons will become Eternal Warrior (1), thereby making them vulnerable to GK and other Instant Kill (2) force weaponry. I think it'd be pretty harsh to Daemons considering Warp Quake, etc. is already in there, but it'd bring the rules in line with fluff. *shrug*

Re: Tyranids, I've actually been having a lot of fun with all-reserve builds lately. Very fresh compared to the old dynamic. Does decently vs. mech...although mech GK are about as big of a rock to my scissors as I could imagine. Fortitude or Warp Quake would be bad enough alone. Together...whew.

Edit: And you want to talk about feeling old...I'd guess at least of the people who saw my Genestealer Cult at the 2008 Baltimore GT had NO idea what a GCult was. With reflection, it made complete sense...GCults haven't been a fully legal army since 1998, they're basically invisible even in fluff now, and plenty of today's players have started the game within the past 5 years. Made me feel very O-L-D, though. Which I kinda am, but still. LOL.

EDITS:

gorgon wrote:That's one of the things I give Phil K. credit for with DE...what's there now in terms of fluff, units and overall feel is a lot of what was there before, just...better.

Exactly, the dark eldar didn't suddenly change into a static shooting army with big tanks and heavy armor, they kept their feel, in fact I think they were elegantly 5th editionized to coin a phrase. I'm not getting the same sense of craft and elegance from the Grey Knights dex at all.

The key to defeating Grey Knights, for the most part, is the shooting phase. Either by forcing them to roll enough dice(for 10 PAGK you can have 40 Lasguns, 50 if we include Halberds, and the command squad if they want a transport) to fail some rolls, or to have enough quality shooting to destroy them, as save Crusaders and Draigo, outside of CC not an awful lot has a respectable invun save.

Spellbound wrote:wow.....really?

You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high? You think 4 extra points for all the extra stuff a GK strike gets over a tactical marine is fair and "not that much better"? Really?

Obviously yes? I play Codex Marines, and I consider Tactical squads to be way better than Strike Squads. It's not even close. If I could replace my Tac squads with Strike squads at equal cost I would not do so, much less at the extra prices GK pay. When you get right down to it, it's all about the special and heavy weapons for these units, and psycannons on power armored units are IMO quite underwhelming. Meltaguns aren't. When you couple that with the fact that Grey Knights can't take long range weapons and therefore can't make as good use of Combat Squads and Razorbacks, the Tacs seem clearly better.

the Tacs are more flexable, but Psycannons are a pretty good weapon.

Heavy 4 or assault 2 Str7 rending is a powerful weapon for close range.

on Heavy 4, you get about 3 hits(rounding up) and then about a 50% chance of a rend. against Av13 thats a garunteed penetration. a 1/3 chance of a Glance against Av14 and a 2/3 pen.


its also at 24", much longer then a melta gun and you can have 2 per squad. 4 on Purifiers and Purgation squads.

GKs don't need Melta guns.

Fetterkey wrote:

Spellbound wrote:wow.....really?

You....think GK is equal in power to basic codex marines?

Are you high? You think 4 extra points for all the extra stuff a GK strike gets over a tactical marine is fair and "not that much better"? Really?

Obviously yes? I play Codex Marines, and I consider Tactical squads to be way better than Strike Squads. It's not even close. If I could replace my Tac squads with Strike squads at equal cost I would not do so, much less at the extra prices GK pay. When you get right down to it, it's all about the special and heavy weapons for these units, and psycannons on power armored units are IMO quite underwhelming. Meltaguns aren't. When you couple that with the fact that Grey Knights can't take long range weapons and therefore can't make as good use of Combat Squads and Razorbacks, the Tacs seem clearly better.

lol this made me giggle ^^

Edit: And you want to talk about feeling old...I'd guess at least of the people who saw my Genestealer Cult at the 2008 Baltimore GT had NO idea what a GCult was. With reflection, it made complete sense...GCults haven't been a fully legal army since 1998, they're basically invisible even in fluff now, and plenty of today's players have started the game within the past 5 years. Made me feel very O-L-D, though. Which I kinda am, but still. LOL.

I miss those cult days. They were always fun to play as or against

omerakk wrote:I miss those cult days. They were always fun to play as or against

Indeed, remember the limos?



Tactical marines? > Grey knights, of course, in everything except a direct comparison, ha. Obviously the storm bolter GKs would beat the tacs in any kind of fight, ranged or CC, which means they're clearly not as good. LOLWUT?

Grey Templar wrote:the Tacs are more flexable, but Psycannons are a pretty good weapon.

Psycannons are good weapons on Terminators and Purgation squads. They aren't so hot for Strike Squads. Honestly, were I running Grey Knights, I would seriously consider giving my Strike Squads incinerators instead of psycannons.

Augustus wrote:Obviously the storm bolter GKs would beat the tacs in any kind of fight, ranged or CC, which means they're clearly not as good. LOLWUT?

These squads aren't for killing, they're for winning the game. A 16 point Tactical Marine claims an objective just as well as a 20 point Grey Knight, and provides better support to the rest of the army while doing so with his more synergistic special rules (Combat Tactics, more efficient Combat Squads) and superior special and heavy weapon options.

Fetterkey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Tacs are more flexable, but Psycannons are a pretty good weapon.

Psycannons are good weapons on Terminators and Purgation squads. They aren't so hot for Strike Squads. Honestly, were I running Grey Knights, I would seriously consider giving my Strike Squads incinerators instead of psycannons.

Can I ask why to the statement in bold? (noob GK player here)

nectarprime wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Tacs are more flexable, but Psycannons are a pretty good weapon.

Psycannons are good weapons on Terminators and Purgation squads. They aren't so hot for Strike Squads. Honestly, were I running Grey Knights, I would seriously consider giving my Strike Squads incinerators instead of psycannons.

Can I ask why to the statement in bold? (noob GK player here)

Psycannons don't synergize very well with storm bolters, at least not for non-Terminators. Storm bolters are the same regardless of whether you move. In practice, this means you should almost always be moving when using them so that you can ensure you're in the best possible position. Psycannons, on the other hand, rapidly become inadequate once you start moving. They're good on Paladins and Terminators, who can move and fire at full effectiveness, Purifiers or Purgation squads, where you can get them in numbers to make up for their weaknesses, and debatably Interceptors, where you can get rear and side shots easily, but for GKSS I think they might be too inefficient to live.