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Fetterkey wrote:Psycannons don't synergize very well with storm bolters,...

That's funny. Of course they do! they all move and fire and should you stay still, you get even more shots, and they all benefit from psybolt, so what's not synergistic! ? You're a contrarian aren't you! Heh.

Ya, the psycannon only gets 2 shots if you move, but those 2 shots are still decent at both anti infantry and anti tank; it's almost like a mobile missle launcher.

These squads aren't for killing, they're for winning the game. A 16 point Tactical Marine claims an objective just as well as a 20 point Grey Knight, and provides better support to the rest of the army while doing so with his more synergistic special rules (Combat Tactics, more efficient Combat Squads) and superior special and heavy weapon options.

I don't understand that stance at all. Personally, I think a unit that can deepstrike, prevent units from deepstriking nearby it, and has all force weapons is MUCH better at taking and holding an objective. If you can't find a way to make those abilities useful... I don't know what to say. Superior special weapons? Not really. The only time a melta surpasses the pyscannon is when you are within melta range; and weren't you just complaining about lack of range being the gk ss weakness? 6" for a melta seems a bit shorter than 24". The only real advantage the vanilla squad has in weapons is the ability to get a lascannon. Too bad I have to take a squad of 10 crappy marines in order to get that 1 gun.

Not sure what competitive scene you play on, but the few vanilla marines I've seen that win consistently were the guys running the minimum possible tac squads

omerakk wrote:Personally, I think a unit that can deepstrike, prevent units from deepstriking nearby it, and has all force weapons is MUCH better at taking and holding an objective. If you can't find a way to make those abilities useful... I don't know what to say.

I can find ways to make those abilities useful, but I find it easier to make Combat Squads and Combat Tactics useful. Your mileage may vary, but that's good for the game-- if you'd rather have GKSS, go ahead and play with GKSS. I'll stick with my Tactical Squads, and maybe sometime we'll get the chance to play each other and see how this debate looks on the battlefield!

omerakk wrote:Superior special weapons? Not really. The only time a melta surpasses the pyscannon is when you are within melta range; and weren't you just complaining about lack of range being the gk ss weakness? 6" for a melta seems a bit shorter than 24". The only real advantage the vanilla squad has in weapons is the ability to get a lascannon. Too bad I have to take a squad of 10 crappy marines in order to get that 1 gun.

The thing is, my Tactical Squad can have both two meltas (one from the special weapon and one from the Sergeant's combi-melta) AND a lascannon, and I can split into two units to make each of those weapons maximally effective. So while five Marines sit on an objective in the back with the lascannon, the other five move up to use their meltas and claim objectives in the middle of the field. Grey Knight armies don't really have a good option for claiming backfield objectives, at least not without bringing HQ choices into the mix. I, for one, definitely prefer two meltas and a las to two psycannons, though again your mileage may vary.

omerakk wrote:Not sure what competitive scene you play on, but the few vanilla marines I've seen that win consistently were the guys running the minimum possible tac squads

Ben Mohile, who just won Best General at WargamesCon, might disagree with you...

Ben "Spacecurves" Mohile wrote:
2000pt Space Marine List
Vulkan He'Stan
Librarian: Null Zone, Gate of Infinity , combi-flamer

5 Assault Terminators: TH/SS
Dreadnought: twin-linked auto-cannon, twin-linked auto-cannon

10 Marines, meltagun, missile launcher, Sgt. with Power fist and combi-melta + Rhino w Dozer Blade
10 Marines, flamer, missile launcher, Sgt. with Power fist and combi-flamer + Rhino w Dozer Blade
10 Marines, flamer, missile launcher, combi-flamer + Razorback w heavy bolters

Land Speeder: heavy bolter, typhoon missiles
Land Speeder: heavy bolter, typhoon missiles
Attack Bikes: 2 attack bikes with multi-meltas

Land Raider: extra armor, Multi-Melta
Thunderfire Cannon

No, I don't think he would disagree at all, seeing as how he's the only one winning with a 3 troops marine list, and the others that place fairly well are running the minimum 2.

I also notice that he only has 2 melta's and zero lascannons in his tac marines, so I guess I'm not the only one that thinks there are better weapons to put on tac squads

Fetterkey wrote:Ben Mohile, who just won Best General at WargamesCon, might disagree with you...

Ben "Spacecurves" Mohile wrote:
2000pt Space Marine List
Vulkan He'Stan
+ STUFF

OK you're right, one guy winning a questionably run tourney in Texas decides it. TAC > GKs 4 ever.

Augustus wrote:OK you're right, one guy winning a questionably run tourney in Texas decides it. TAC > GKs 4 ever.

That would indeed be a silly argument, but that's not the one that I was making. omerakk asked for an example of a vanilla marine player doing well with non-minimal Tac squads, and I provided one. Also, if you think WGC was a "questionable" event, that's certainly your prerogative-- what do you think of the Boston Brawlcon, which the same player won Best Overall at using the same list?

omerakk wrote:No, I don't think he would disagree at all, seeing as how he's the only one winning with a 3 troops marine list, and the others that place fairly well are running the minimum 2.

I also notice that he only has 2 melta's and zero lascannons in his tac marines, so I guess I'm not the only one that thinks there are better weapons to put on tac squads

Nice goalpost moving, but I provided the link to Ben's results because they were the most recent, not because they were the "only ones--" tons of people take more than the minimum Tacs. Here's a link to a Dakka member's report of a recent RTT he won with another 30-Tac Marine list. Again, this is just from what I remember reading in the last month or so-- I'm sure if you tried you could find many more results where people win events with more than the minimum possible amount of Tacs in their armies.

Note also that Ben runs Vulkan He'Stan, who radically alters the equation pertaining to what weapons you should take, both on Tactical Marines and everywhere else.

Incinerators are horrible on Strikes. they are so freakin expensive it doesn't make any sense.

the Pyscannon is more versitile and 1/2 the cost.

Nice goalpost moving, but I provided the link to Ben's results because they were the most recent, not because they were the "only ones--" tons of people take more than the minimum Tacs. Here's a link to a Dakka member's report of a recent RTT he won with another 30-Tac Marine list. Again, this is just from what I remember reading in the last month or so-- I'm sure if you tried you could find many more results where people win events with more than the minimum possible amount of Tacs in their armies.

Goalpost moving, like trying to prove your theory on tac squads is correct by using one of the top players in the world is able to do instead of the majority of players? By that logic, Necrons must be the best army in the game since Dash is undefeated with them. Yes, there are "tons" of people who take more than the minimum squads, and if you have read the reports, you'll see its always the same 3 guys winning major tournaments with them. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you could find someone with 6 tac squads winning a local tournament. Hell, I remember reading a cron player winning a local tournament with a 6 warrior slots, zero monolith, no deceiver list... twice. Would I use that to back up a claim that necron warriors are > sm tac squads? Of course not.

Note also that Ben runs Vulkan He'Stan, who radically alters the equation pertaining to what weapons you should take, both on Tactical Marines and everywhere else.

And maybe he does that because it works better than melta and lascannon spam in tac squads?

Back to your original argument that tac squads > gk strike squads, you have given no evidence of that whatsoever. You've made several good points,
Tac squads are better at:
1. long range support
2. utility with combat squads
3. survivability with combat tactics

and have ignored the fact that
Strike squads are better at:
1. mid range firepower
2. close combat
3. utility with pys powers

Yes, your tac squads have excellent synergy... with vanilla marines; and strike squads have excellent synergy with... grey knights. I don't understand how you can say unit A is better than unit B when both of them do their jobs perfectly for the army they are in.

The problem with everyone saying that the 4 points more over a standard marine regarding all of the stuff they get extra is that in a perfect world, yes, the storm bolters will shoot every turn, they will assault models with lower initiative every turn and mop them up in time for their turn, and that the entire enemy army is going to be trying to deep strike near them always. That sort of situation doesn't happen.

Those 20 (or 24 if you take Crowe and purifiers) basic troopers still die to lasguns the exact same as the 16 point marines. Giving a force sword to a 1 wound model that has 1 base attack, no bonus for a pistol, and at best two attacks on the charge on paper looks very powerful, but when it hits the tabletop, potentially it can do well, but rarely does. My local area has several Tau players, they have never faced the plasma siphon (too situational for an all comers list, plus it eats a valuable hq slot) and have a very good record against the Grey Knights.

On the table, hysterics removed, they are a good middle of the road army. While an individual model has a lot going for it, they don't get the free special weapons (what special weapons?) or the free heavy weapons of their tactical brethren. Barring monkeys, dreadnaughts and Landradiers, the range of the entire army is 24", and while the psycannon is rending, relying on rending to bust armor value 14 is chancy at best, mathhammer says that it should happen fairly often, in reality, it sure doesn't seem to pan out that way.

I myself am planning on taking a purifier with halberd heavy list, I've played them a few times, but with each trooper costing 26 points minimum, you end up having a ton of points invested in your easiest to kill models.

I would say however, in the defense of the most vocal people here, that in my opinion, the Death Cult Assassin and Crusaders are very under costed for what they can do. Especially when a storm shield for an acolyte costs more than an entire Crusader in a henchman squad.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Those 4 points add up if you have to take them en masse. Nobody's paying *just* four points, in the end.

I don't know why i see any lists with strike or Purgation squads ... Just take Castellan Crowe and so long as you're taking 2+ Psycannons, Purifiers work out the same price or cheaper. (OK Purgation are cheaper if you want 4 incinerators but that heavy slot should have a dread in it)

So, I assume that everyone has read the codex? It seems like a lot of people are overreacting or think that certain abilities are "auto win."

1. Interceptors have warp quake, that is true. But I haven't seen them used that often. And 12" inches around the unit will hardly "screw" a Daemon player, it simply requires them to rethink their deployment. And hell, it won't even be that much of a problem if the GK don't go first. Secondly, even if you do stray into the mishap zone you have a decent, not great chance of surviving. Either being moved back or re-entering reserves. Thirdly, you have to use your one psychic power of the turn and also have to make a test to see if it goes off. LD 9 is decent, but doesn't mean that it'll be going off. And hell, if you have any sort of psychic defense the poor justicar will either be rolling at reduced LD or with 3 dice. Perils of the warp take their toll.

2. Psybolt ammo. +1 Strength. Seems like a fair way to make GK a bit different from tacticals with a 20 point price tag. Is this really game breaking? If i'm shooting at T3 i'm wounding with a bit more efficiency. Most of the units that would be really effected by this, that I cant think off, have saves that are negated by the AP value. It's minimal, and I haven't seen many bat reps on dakka that used them. Its nice to have, and it helps differentiate the codex from the 700 other marine codecies.

3. Psychic powers. Psychic powers fail. People assume they always go off so of course they look scary. A librarian is a two wound model, and the models you take your psychic tests with in GK units are generally one model. Perils of the warp nukes them pretty quick with below average rolling. And psychic defense will hurt them incredibly badly. Dark excommunication is alright, provided you get a DK or special character in B2B contact. But how often has that happened since the codex came out? Probably not that much, but its conjecture.

4. DCA's and Crusaders. I suppose people think the only way to deal with CC monsters is to get into CC with them? If you don't want to deal with them, then shoot them till they're dead. Better yet, nuke their transport in their deployment zone and make them walk. A 3+ invul is very hearty, but goes down to sustained fire, especially since the model holding it is T3. People are simply learning how to deal with them, in time, itll be a normal consideration.

Overall, I still think people are overreacting about this. Their anti daemon abilities are tame and in general I find it to be a good codex with simple and hard counters.

DakkaDakka wrote:

gpfunk wrote:So, I assume that everyone has read the codex? It seems like a lot of people are overreacting or think that certain abilities are "auto win."

Auto win? No ... however they do come with some massively cheap toys.
Space marine on his own ... 16pts
Grey Knight on his own ... 20pts

So what do we pay 4pts for? We swap a bolt gun and bolt pistol for a storm bolter and a force weapon ... oh and the unit can boost their strength with hammer hands ... twice if there's a character.

Tri wrote:

gpfunk wrote:So, I assume that everyone has read the codex? It seems like a lot of people are overreacting or think that certain abilities are "auto win."

Auto win? No ... however they do come with some massively cheap toys.
Space marine on his own ... 16pts
Grey Knight on his own ... 20pts

So what do we pay 4pts for? We swap a bolt gun and bolt pistol for a storm bolter and a force weapon ... oh and the unit can boost their strength with hammer hands ... twice if there's a character.

On a model that dies exactly as easily as the 4 point cheaper model, gets no free special or heavy weapon either when you take a squad of them. Has a chance to take a perils of the warp hit killing the leader of the squad instantly 1/18th of the time, doesn't get any of the special chapter tactics either. If you decide to upgrade from the storm bolter, you also lose your force sword as well.

Question: If Grey Knights are so beatface awesome, super easy to build killer lists, why aren't they dominating the gaming scene?

The only major problems with GKs I see are:
1) The massive benefits every unit gets-4 points over a basic marine for a Force Weapon, Stormbolter and array of psychic powers. A basic Marine has to pay 10 points for a Power Sword-Grey Knights pay just 4 to become able to ID Carnifexes, and that's not even the whole story. That's just too much.

2) Psybolt ammo. 5 points to upgrade a Dread to have 4 S8 Autocannon shots rather than S7. That's a no-brainer, which you should never have in a Codex.

3) Purifiers. 5 Force weapons, so some of the toughest guys in the game can get completely curbstomped by them, and Cleansing Flame, so swamping them isn't a good idea either. For assault-oriented armies like Tyranids and Deamons, this can make them a real pain.

I'm not too worked up over plasma syphons-the only army that doesn't have enough low-AP non-plasma weaponry (eg Meltas) or volume of fire to take down Terminators reliabley are Tau, and even with most of their weapons being affected, they have to be within charging range and are dead anyway.

The main problem with people perceptions about point value is they seem to overvalue killing power, or think that the upgrades that GKs are super effective. Force sword? Good right? Well, 1 attack force swords... not so much. Storm bolter? Killing power same as a regular bolter, but is assault 24 instead of RF... So you aren't really getting much. 4 pts for a force sword and a storm bolter looks more reasonable in that light, especially since the Strike squad dies just like any chump space marine. Defensive ability? Yeah, you will and should pay through the nose for that, it means that your guy is going to be doing his thing much longer. Why are wyches (with pain token), nobs, death company taken (and effecitive)? Its not offensive power (though it is good) its the fact they can do their thing and live another day, while much cheaper squads trying to do the same will most likely die trying.

20 pts for a GK strike squad member is also fair when you consider that the 15-16 pts you pay for a tactical marine is a bit too much, especially when compared to what other non marine armies can get (DE, guard, even eldar get more bang for their buck, but in more specialized and easier to kill units). Marines pay through the nose to be generalists with decent defensive stats.

Comparing the costs for sarges to get the upgrades that the basic GK standard is not fair, especially in the CC and psyker department. How much a vanilla marine sarge with 4 attacks pays for a power sword doesn't have anything to do with how much it costs to give a strike squad with a single attack them (especially since most people seem to agree that PWs on sarges in vanilla is over priced to begin with). Also, LD 9 is awful for trying to get powers off against any psyker defense. LD 10 hoods? Good Luck. Eldar runes or nids shadow? uh, not even going to try unless its critical (it usually isn't)... Some armies don't have access to defense, and that problem lies with those books not GKs. Most armies that lack defense aren't as vulnerable to the powers to begin with... Oh noes, my tau are wounded on 2s and will lose combat! So business as usual then?

Where GKs might have legitimate complaints is the fact that they don't have much in the way of unit choices for long range anti armor, or long range anything. The best way to get it is to spam henchmen and psifflenaughts. Which is funny since people complain the most about those two units. Most GK players love those two choices, but the reason they take them is A: They fill a role that MUST be filled B: they are cheaper than any other option. C: They are resilient either through spam or unit rules and D: They get the job done.

One last thing, purifiers. People rightly fear these guys, able to kill MCs and ICs with their 2 attack force weapons, can take 2 special weapons per 5, and can clear out hordes with their unit ability. Problem? They die just like any other marine once they get hit. They also cost more than just a little. If you take them as troops, you have to take a nearly useless character (competing with points and slots with some pretty awesome chocies), and to take enough for scoring purposes means you don't have as much left to support them properly. If you take them as elites, you don't get to have other units in that slot (like ven dreads, non coteaz henchies, assassins, or paladins). They do have a real cost, and they aren't the duh choice that people make them out to be.

I'm sure these guys are good in small games but will lose there strengths in bigger games?
As quantity adds flexibility and more possible tactics than small quality forces and that will force them to be alittle predictable

DakkaDakka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:Question: If Grey Knights are so beatface awesome, super easy to build killer lists, why aren't they dominating the gaming scene?

Time

Well, if I have a beef with the Grey Knight codex, it's that the henchman cover everything. Are grey knights expensive? Do their points add up? Do they have limited melta?

All those are answered with a yes except in the case of taking henchmen.

The real broken power build is essentially mech ig with Grey Knight counter charge and rhinos/razorbacks immune to shaken and stunned.

However, most players are focusing on the grey knights themselves, when the real power in 40k are the mechanized transports and the cheap units that go in them.

However, I haven't seen anyone try to go that route yet....In time though.

Question: If Grey Knights are so beatface awesome, super easy to build killer lists, why aren't they dominating the gaming scene?

Because it's hard for most people to make a good list unless the internet tells them how. People somehow haven't caught on to how crazy good a Coteaz based MSU list is. They will soon.

Well, if I have a beef with the Grey Knight codex, it's that the henchman cover everything. Are grey knights expensive? Do their points add up? Do they have limited melta?

All those are answered with a yes except in the case of taking henchmen.

The real broken power build is essentially mech ig with Grey Knight counter charge and rhinos/razorbacks immune to shaken and stunned.

However, most players are focusing on the grey knights themselves, when the real power in 40k are the mechanized transports and the cheap units that go in them.

However, I haven't seen anyone try to go that route yet....In time though.

This. Henchman are broken. There is really not much of a reason to take more than a Strike Squad or two. Henchman can make anything. Want a CC monster? Take 5-6 DCA's and maybe pepper in some Crusaders or Acoyltes with Coteaz, a Libby, or a Techmarine. Want a cheap and arguable better Vindicator? A PBS with 1 Acoylte in Rhino that ignores shaken or stunned works. Want a dirt cheap scoring unit? Take 3 Acolytes in a PsyRazor. It's only 62 points.... Think about that. There is no better troop choice for that price. The combinations are endless.

As someone posted earlier, 6 MSU Acolytes in Psybacks with Coteaz and 3 Psfleman is 877. Which leaves 1123 points in which to otherwise kit out the army or upgrade any of these units. Add in a Libby, and 3 5 man Purifiers in Rhinos and you still have close to 400 points. Use those to upgrade 2 of these troop units to DCA stars in Chimeras for the Libby and Coteaz to go with. That list could take on anything.

scuddman wrote:The real broken power build is essentially mech ig with Grey Knight counter charge and rhinos/razorbacks immune to shaken and stunned.

The problem with this build is that it doesn't have the units that make mech IG good-- Hydras, Manticores, and Vendettas. You're essentially fielding a fake mech IG army, and when the real mech IG is already dying out on the competitive scene... I don't expect these lists to get too far. They sure seemed good in the prerelease pirate Codex where you could take unlimited special weapons in Henchman squads, but that time has come and gone.

No but you do get access to a lot of support units since the henchmen are so cheap. In my mind a mixed list is where the power is at. Cheap henchmen as troops (psykers, DCA, or meltas seem to be the most competitive) backed up by dreads, Strike Squads, chimeras and razorbacks. Heck my 2k list could include 5 dreads (3 ven, 2 regular), 4 chimeras and 2 razorbacks. Not as many as IG can field but the contents are generally more lethal at range.

I do love henchmen ... Current build is 3 Deathcult (for 6-9 Pw attacks), 2 Psykers (for a Range 36" Str4, AP5, Assault 1, Large blast), 2 monkeys (2 Heavy flamers or 2 Multi-Meltas or 2 Lascannons ... Which may have better range or rend ... and the chance to get better armour and/or a 5++) ... not forgetting 5 warrior wounds.

Hordes of enemies? Heavy flamers, and a large blast.
Vehicles? Lascannons or multi-melta

My current Army list
Coteaz
Henchmen +chimera x4 840
Psy-Dread x3 405
Total 1345 ....
Then I just fill up on Purifiers.

Lukus83 wrote:No but you do get access to a lot of support units since the henchmen are so cheap. In my mind a mixed list is where the power is at. Cheap henchmen as troops (psykers, DCA, or meltas seem to be the most competitive) backed up by dreads, Strike Squads, chimeras and razorbacks. Heck my 2k list could include 5 dreads (3 ven, 2 regular), 4 chimeras and 2 razorbacks. Not as many as IG can field but the contents are generally more lethal at range.

I would like to point out that DCAs are 15 pts, and melta acolytes are 14, neither which fit my personal definition of "cheap" when you are talking about T3 models with a 5+ save. The whole squad being cheap? Yeah, sure, since you can make them really small. I'll just laugh when their entire henchmen scoring contingent is killed by exploding chimeras/razors, and you are left with nothing but two small strike squads to score with. Henchmen are good, but c'mon, spamming small little units of them as your main troop is a good way to never win objective missions.

I also never really heard anybody get excited about the psykers untill now, you have to have more than 1 to get that blast to be more than a gimmick, and their LD being 8 means that it isn't exactly a sure thing to use it, especially in the face of defense like a hood or runes (or shadow in the warp for that matter).

I find the henchman army interesting. It has very little defense vs. a Dreadknight/Furioso. Once in the lines nothing can stop those. I think it looks good on paper, but unless you play on the plains of Nebraska, any los blocking terrain will make half the army ineffective and allow the enemy to deliver a CC unit that will attack from tank to tank and stop everything. 1-2 pure GK squads can be targeted with shooting and eliminated so they can't counter attack. Now find a way to reliably kick the Bloodthirster (a euphism for some tough as nails CC unit) out of your lines and you might have something

Anytime Hank Edley does well in a tournament there has to be more than meets the eye.

Darth,

If anyone would know it would be you since a few of those wins back in the day came at your expense.

I was doing my best to channel my 2000-2006 40K-Fu at WarGamesCon. Follow the W.W.F.D principle,.. Appears it was not lost, only suppressed, and now once again unleashed and on display for another generation. Now just got to get Chua and Weeks back on the circuit and it will be like a sequel to Hot Tub Time Machine.

- Hank

Dude, that would be awesome. I'd like to see that. It would be like getting a band back together. LOL.

Fetterkey wrote:

scuddman wrote:The real broken power build is essentially mech ig with Grey Knight counter charge and rhinos/razorbacks immune to shaken and stunned.

The problem with this build is that it doesn't have the units that make mech IG good-- Hydras, Manticores, and Vendettas. You're essentially fielding a fake mech IG army, and when the real mech IG is already dying out on the competitive scene... I don't expect these lists to get too far. They sure seemed good in the prerelease pirate Codex where you could take unlimited special weapons in Henchman squads, but that time has come and gone.

I don't agree. It has a similar base component of mech IG, but it doesn't quite play the same. As for mech IG dying out...doesn't look like it's dying out at all. Here in LA, full frontal nudity IG won the so cal slaughter, and IG is in the so cal league finals. You are right that you can't take unlimited special weapons...but you can still take 3. You can also take essentially unlimited lascannons taking monkeys. I feel the psydread is a good match for hydra and vendetta shooting..and henchman like I said have better access to lascannons/multimeltas. And all that being said...the henchman core is very cheap, so taking other stuff to compensate is very much a viable strategy. You could, for instance, use the extra point savings from henchman to buy stormravens as replacements for vendettas. I already mentioned psydreads. THere is also access to the landraider and many varieties of terminators, etc. Last I checked, Mech IG couldn't take a monstrous creature with a 2+ save and a 30" shunt move and access to scout and scoring.

I find the henchman army interesting. It has very little defense vs. a Dreadknight/Furioso. Once in the lines nothing can stop those. I think it looks good on paper, but unless you play on the plains of Nebraska, any los blocking terrain will make half the army ineffective and allow the enemy to deliver a CC unit that will attack from tank to tank and stop everything. 1-2 pure GK squads can be targeted with shooting and eliminated so they can't counter attack. Now find a way to reliably kick the Bloodthirster (a euphism for some tough as nails CC unit) out of your lines and you might have something

You stop this the same way mech IG does. Monster flies over and pops a 40-50 point transport, maybe or maybe not munches the unit inside. Then he gets shot off the table.
No way is the monster worth the 40-50 points spent on the transport..and there should be tons of special weapons all around. As for los blocking terrain, we play in an era of true los, and most transports can move and shoot. It is really really hard to hide things. I find it essentially impossible in 5th edition to hide while moving forward and not get shot. It might be possible to avoid getting shot completely if something sits in the back..but then it's not moving. But then...that's essentially what makes mech really good. You pop out and kill a transport...so what? You traded a big piece for a pawn.