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Night's Blood wrote:
Does JotWW specifically state is does not need a roll to hit?

No.

As I demonstrated, this line of reasoning does not hold water, since clearly there are other PSA's which 1) Don't have the words "automatically hits" in their description and 2) Nevertheless clearly do not roll to hit.

And JotWW is not one of them. Your "demonstration" is just showing more powers that indeed DO require a roll to hit.

All PSA must roll to hit unless a specifically stated exemption is listed.

So you find more things you should have been doing but werent, and thats the extent of your argument BR?

Poor, as usual.

I personally don't think JoTWW requires a roll to hit. I'm in the camp that believes the exception to the normal PSA rules is given in the text telling us how the PSA affects it's targets. Roll to hit is replaced by 'draw a line', comparison of BS to the to-hit chart is replaced by 'any models touched' by the line. I'd gladly play it either way, but that's just how all the rules read to me.

ChrisCP wrote:
The SW FAQ makes it abundantly clear that the first model touched by the line is the target model.

"Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e., impassable terrain)? (p37)

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!"
Followed by
"Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes."

Night's Blood wrote:And JotWW is not one of them. Your "demonstration" is just showing more powers that indeed DO require a roll to hit.

All PSA must roll to hit unless a specifically stated exemption is listed.

So your claim is that Thunderclap requires roll to hit?

Yes it's just that and one finds that when dealing with blast markers a roll-to-hit is substituted with a roll-to-scatter - when following the core rules laid out in the BRB.
"When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle. You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it.

Next, check if the shot has landed on target. If the hole at the centre of the marker is beyond the weapon’s maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed." Pg 30

Thunder Clap actually contains specific instructions to over-ride part of the base rules by telling us "Place the large blast maker so it is touching the ruin priest" ironically this means that most of the time the Rune priest is going to take a S3 AP5 hit.

ChrisCP wrote:Yes it's just that and one finds that when dealing with blast markers a roll-to-hit is substituted with a roll-to-scatter - when following the core rules laid out in the BRB.
"When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle. You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it.

Next, check if the shot has landed on target. If the hole at the centre of the marker is beyond the weapon’s maximum range, the shot is an automatic miss and the marker is removed." Pg 30

Thunder Clap actually contains specific instructions to over-ride part of the base rules by telling us "Place the large blast maker so it is touching the ruin priest" ironically this means that most of the time the Rune priest is going to take a S3 AP5 hit.

As usual, stumbling over rules and combining them when they are not combined.

Using the blast marker does not make a blast weapon. You have been shown this upteen times and still present this flawed argument.

Thunderclap does not have a weapon profile that designates it as a blast weapon. It uses the small blast marker to symbolize the range of the Thunderclap, yet another codex exception on how to employ a psychic shooting attack.

Upteen? Umpteen maybe? Care to find the first one that you can. I can at least show you that - "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise)." Pg 50 - Would still mean that Thunderclap counts as firing a ranged assault weapon and would still need to roll to hit, but naturally using a blast marker would indicate the use of a blast weapon so one would consider the rules for firing blast weapons.... And it actually uses the large blast marker....

PSAs always count as firing a range weapon - "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack." Pg 50

This means to use a PSA one must:
1 Check line of sight & pick a target.
2 Check range.
3 Roll to hit.
4 Roll to wound.
5 Take saving throws.
6 Remove casualties.

Unless one is told not to.
So to use thunderclap one must, Check line of sight and pick a target. Then not follow the instructions of "models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model," as we are told to place the marker touching the Priest. This naturally means the shot is in range. Which means... "If the target is in range, the large area affected by the blast means it’s going to be very hard to miss completely. Nonetheless, the shot may not land exactly where it was intended to. Roll the scatter dice and 2D6 to see where the shot lands."

But if you don't want to follow the rules for firing ranged weapons, and ignore the fact that the FAQ stating PSAs must roll to hit. Meh, just please, support your argument with rules. We have shown exceptions to the normal process with PSAs that state 'the shot does not scatter' and 'hits automatically' when exceptions are granted from the normal shooting process. It this explicit languge that allows one to not roll to hit ro to not scatter.

So please find a position which is supported by the rules, not just the weight of your opinion.

ChrisCP wrote:
So please find a position which is supported by the rules, not just the weight of your opinion.

It's very simple. Scatter rules are for weapons which have Blast rule. Look it up from the rulebook. It is very unambigious.

"Blast" is a special weapon rule. Just like Melta, Pinning, Gets hot etc.

Thunderclap has no Melta rule in its profile, so it's not a Melta weapon. It has no Gets hot rule in its profile, so it does not Get Hot!. Etcetera.

And finally, it has no Blast rule in its profile, so it does not use Blast weapon rules, and hence, does not use scatter rules.

It uses a large Blast marker, but that is completely incidental. They might just as well specify using a dinner plate. Or your own palm. Or, I dunno, say a line which is 24 inches long?

By the way, Thunderclap specifies that it only affects enemy models.

How is there still confusion with this?

It explicitly says anything touched by the line must take an Initiative test. Anything TOUCHED, not hit. So no need to roll to hit, at all.

A psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon. So he doesn't get to shoot his bolt pistol or whatever, doesn't mean he has to roll to hit, as anything touched MUST take an Initiative test.

Yet he MUST roll to hit, unless told otherwise

There is no exception to the "roll to hit", so you still do it. You still declare a target, as it is a PSA.

We are told otherwise. We are told that anyone touched by the Blast marker is hit. That replaces Roll to hit.

And even if you still argue that it MUST be rolled, the roll is inconsequential. Blast marker does not disappear from "miss" result.

As a psychic shooting attack, the Rune Priest may trace a line along the board........models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test.

Since it is effectively a template, they would be auto hit. Like shooting a flamer, but its a line instead.

Line /= template. This isnt fantasy

Backfire wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
So please find a position which is supported by the rules, not just the weight of your opinion.

It's very simple. Scatter rules are for weapons which have Blast rule. Look it up from the rulebook. It is very unambigious.

"Blast" is a special weapon rule. Just like Melta, Pinning, Gets hot etc.

Thunderclap has no Melta rule in its profile, so it's not a Melta weapon. It has no Gets hot rule in its profile, so it does not Get Hot!. Etcetera.

And finally, it has no Blast rule in its profile, so it does not use Blast weapon rules, and hence, does not use scatter rules.

It uses a large Blast marker, but that is completely incidental. They might just as well specify using a dinner plate. Or your own palm. Or, I dunno, say a line which is 24 inches long?

By the way, Thunderclap specifies that it only affects enemy models.

Exactly, can you find a clause saying it always hits/doesn't scatter?

Being a PSA means it counts as firing an Assault weapon - unless othrewise specified - if you wish to contest that it's actually an assault weapon as it doesn't state it a blast, despite using the marker, then okay. It still needs too roll-to-hit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Line /= template. This isnt fantasy

Anything touched by the line has to take an initiative test. ANYTHING TOUCHED...TOUCHED TOUCHED TOUCHED.... not hit.

ChrisCP wrote:
Exactly, can you find a clause saying it always hits/doesn't scatter?

Already did.

And not that it's needed, but there is also common sense. Clapping ones hands together is pretty hard to miss even for the clumsiest person, not to mention that already weak power would be essentially useless if it required a scatter or To hit-roll.

Toasted - meaning you still need a roll to hit. Because it doesnt say you dont.

The rules say you need to roll to hit. Find a rule saying you dont. Note, nothing you have posted so far constitutes that rule, in case you have any doubt

Backfire wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
Exactly, can you find a clause saying it always hits/doesn't scatter?

Already did.

And not that it's needed, but there is also common sense. Clapping ones hands together is pretty hard to miss even for the clumsiest person, not to mention that already weak power would be essentially useless if it required a scatter or To hit-roll.

Sorry, I see a fluff explanation. Could you provide some rules to show that the power 'automatically hits' or 'does not scatter'?

Roll to hit what? all of them? or only the first model? would missing miss everything in the line? or do i have to roll for each separately? Find me a rule that explicitly says I do need to roll to hit for JotWW.

ChrisCP wrote:
Sorry, I see a fluff explanation. Could you provide some rules to show that the power 'automatically hits' or 'does not scatter'?

It does not "automatically hits": instead, any enemy model touched by the Blast marker is hit. Since that provides the "To hit" mechanism, no Roll to hit is needed.

And it does not scatter for the simple reason that only Blast weapons scatter, and Thunderclap is not a Blast weapon.

Toasted - the rules dont work that way

PSAs roll to hit. Jaws is a PSA, therefore it rolls to hit.

YOU now need to find a RULE saying it doesnt need to roll to hit. You have yet to do so.

ChrisCP wrote:
Thunder Clap actually contains specific instructions to over-ride part of the base rules by telling us "Place the large blast maker so it is touching the ruin priest" ironically this means that most of the time the Rune priest is going to take a S3 AP5 hit.

It doesn't say that the hole has to be over the Rune Priest, just the template has to touch him. Doesn't that imply you can use the very bottom of the circle to touch him and the entire template goes in front of him?

Just found this:

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

So if it is a psychic shooting attack, then I have to nominate a target, check distance, roll to hit.

Could be handy for checking distances in tournaments.

WarOne wrote:In the end, leave it for the TOs and in-house rules decisions to decide if they do or do not need to roll a hit.

I'm in the mid-south of the United States and frequent the Memphis Factory Store on a regular basis. As many of you know this is now the new GW headquarters. I asked the manager, and tourney organizer, last month before a tournament that I played in (I was playing Eldar so the decision wasn't going to affect me either way) and this is what I was told:

"Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't need to roll to hit. It is essentially an odd shaped template weapon. You place the line after declaring your target and work out the results from there."

The example of Thunderclap was also used as an example that not all template weapons are teardrop shaped. I'm not saying that every TO will rule it this way so it's best to check with your local TO before a tourney, but if you are playing at the Memphis Factory Store (GW's HQ) this is how it was ruled.

Good enough for me.

bigbaboonass wrote:

WarOne wrote:In the end, leave it for the TOs and in-house rules decisions to decide if they do or do not need to roll a hit.

I'm in the mid-south of the United States and frequent the Memphis Factory Store on a regular basis. As many of you know this is now the new GW headquarters. I asked the manager, and tourney organizer, last month before a tournament that I played in (I was playing Eldar so the decision wasn't going to affect me either way) and this is what I was told:

"Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't need to roll to hit. It is essentially an odd shaped template weapon. You place the line after declaring your target and work out the results from there."

The example of Thunderclap was also used as an example that not all template weapons are teardrop shaped. I'm not saying that every TO will rule it this way so it's best to check with your local TO before a tourney, but if you are playing at the Memphis Factory Store (GW's HQ) this is how it was ruled.

Good enough for me.

I had a feeling they might rule it as an odd shaped template weapon. That justification works for me.

Though, for JoTWW it's pretty obvious that cover saves are not taken, as no wounds are inflicted. But what about Blood Lance? Does it follow all of the template rules, and thus denies models their cover save, or is it a template only in the sense it doesn't require a roll to hit?

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

bigbaboonass wrote:

WarOne wrote:In the end, leave it for the TOs and in-house rules decisions to decide if they do or do not need to roll a hit.

I'm in the mid-south of the United States and frequent the Memphis Factory Store on a regular basis. As many of you know this is now the new GW headquarters. I asked the manager, and tourney organizer, last month before a tournament that I played in (I was playing Eldar so the decision wasn't going to affect me either way) and this is what I was told:

"Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't need to roll to hit. It is essentially an odd shaped template weapon. You place the line after declaring your target and work out the results from there."

The example of Thunderclap was also used as an example that not all template weapons are teardrop shaped. I'm not saying that every TO will rule it this way so it's best to check with your local TO before a tourney, but if you are playing at the Memphis Factory Store (GW's HQ) this is how it was ruled.

Good enough for me.

I had a feeling they might rule it as an odd shaped template weapon. That justification works for me.

Though, for JoTWW it's pretty obvious that cover saves are not taken, as no wounds are inflicted. But what about Blood Lance? Does it follow all of the template rules, and thus denies models their cover save, or is it a template only in the sense it doesn't require a roll to hit?

Sorry. I never thought to ask about Blood Lance, but the next time I'm at GW I'll find something out. The way I saw it played however was people were taking cover saves from wounds caused by it.

Funnily, I just posted a thread about this in our local club's forum.

Wanted to clear this up and get the TOs input on whether INAT trumps FAQ 1.1.

Will post his judgement here.

bigbaboonass wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

bigbaboonass wrote:

WarOne wrote:In the end, leave it for the TOs and in-house rules decisions to decide if they do or do not need to roll a hit.

I'm in the mid-south of the United States and frequent the Memphis Factory Store on a regular basis. As many of you know this is now the new GW headquarters. I asked the manager, and tourney organizer, last month before a tournament that I played in (I was playing Eldar so the decision wasn't going to affect me either way) and this is what I was told:

"Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't need to roll to hit. It is essentially an odd shaped template weapon. You place the line after declaring your target and work out the results from there."

The example of Thunderclap was also used as an example that not all template weapons are teardrop shaped. I'm not saying that every TO will rule it this way so it's best to check with your local TO before a tourney, but if you are playing at the Memphis Factory Store (GW's HQ) this is how it was ruled.

Good enough for me.

I had a feeling they might rule it as an odd shaped template weapon. That justification works for me.

Though, for JoTWW it's pretty obvious that cover saves are not taken, as no wounds are inflicted. But what about Blood Lance? Does it follow all of the template rules, and thus denies models their cover save, or is it a template only in the sense it doesn't require a roll to hit?

Sorry. I never thought to ask about Blood Lance, but the next time I'm at GW I'll find something out. The way I saw it played however was people were taking cover saves from wounds caused by it.

That's what I thought would be the case. That's very interesting.