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Brother Ramses wrote:

terranarc wrote:As FAQ triumphs codex, yes they need to hit.

However, as I play it, PSA = shooting and I use this order of operations:
Teardrop = autohit
If it specifically says it auto-hits then it auto-hits.
If its blast then it scatters as per shooting a blast weapon
If it does NOT specifically mentions that it auto hits but does mention that it is a PSA, then it rolls to hit.

Either way whether you play it RAI like me or hardcore RAW by GW, JotWW rolls to hit.

A FAQ to the BRB is not more specific then a codex exception as listed on page 50. So, wrong and please try again.

Ramses, if you have no rebuttal to cold hard logic then please leave the thread.

JotWW is a PSA, PSA's require a roll to hit. This was cemented in the FAQ. In your own words "try again".

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Ciaranannrach I was mearly commenting on how it is less ambiguous then people think, they are spliting hairs in order to gain an advantage and rules lawyering. That is what I find mildly disturbing.

or no in the end the results are the same. I just feel that at that point you were trying to deflect the arguement I was making and side tracking the discussion. Saying the rules are unclear and as far as your concerned couter acts your previous statement. If thats the way you feel do not try to argue other wise. Give up and say, "you know what I did not think of it that way" or disagree and give a reason why. Don't cop out and say the rules are unclear
and its GW's fault.

Logically, if the rules were not ambiguous, then there never would have been a disagreement over it. The fact there was a disagreement (and continues to be one) implies that it is ambiguous. My point was and still remains, the "automatic hit" text is not garbage, as it prevents threads like this. That was the point I was trying to make, which was directly due to your assertion that it was garbage. No attempts to derail the thread, deflect from it, or side track it - at least not consciously; everything was in response to your own assertions.

Having just looked up Vibro Cannons, I'll provide to you the skinny on how they operate. Vibro cannons: Eldar artillery weapon, page 45. "When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. "

The parallel is that both Vibro Cannons, JoTWW, and Blood Lance are shooting attacks which operate on all units (models, in JoTWW's case) that a drawn line from the firing model crosses. Vibro Cannons explicitly state in its rules that a roll to hit must be made before drawing the line, and if the firer misses the line is not drawn. (Precedence.) The GW FAQ state that psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, which since JoTWW and Blood Lance are both psychic shooting attacks, means they require a roll to hit. Vibro Cannons provide the precedence required to work out how you roll to hit for a shooting attack that hits every unit/model in a straight line.

This invalidates my previous understanding of Blood Lance, as I assumed (incorrectly) that it and JoTWW were unique in using a straight line. (I'm not an Eldar player, and my friend who plays Eldar didn't field them when I played him when I still lived in Memphis.) I had assumed the roll to hit would have occured after the line was drawn. So, DarknessEternal, you know what, I did not look at it that way.

Two things, first there is more the one way to skin a cat. The assumption that the only way to hit something without a roll is you have to see "automatically hits" is just that an assumption. In the PSA section it also tells you clearly that execptions will be covered in the codex but purposefully left ambiguous so they may use many different ways to make rules. That is why I feel it is garbage. It feels narrow minded and restrictive to me when its plain as day they meant to leave it open ended.

Secondly, you do notice that vibro cannons are different to Jaws and Blood Lance, the vibro cannon explicatly states you need to role to hit before placing the line, where Jaws and Blood lance tell you to place the line. It is a subtle difference, I know, but like you said (precedence) GW would have placed the same text in to make it that way.

Unlike Blood Lance or Jaws, Vibro Cannons are also explicitly exempt from rules concerning line of sight, which for instance Jaws is explicitly not. In it's essence, Vibro Cannon represents good rules, where all exceptions are covered. Jaws of the World Wolf must represent poorly written rules if and only if it is not meant to roll to hit - since the relevant exceptions aren't given.

Mahtamori wrote:
Unlike Blood Lance or Jaws, Vibro Cannons are also explicitly exempt from rules concerning line of sight, which for instance Jaws is explicitly not. In it's essence, Vibro Cannon represents good rules, where all exceptions are covered. Jaws of the World Wolf must represent poorly written rules if and only if it is not meant to roll to hit - since the relevant exceptions aren't given.

About the poor writing, of the original rule and the two FAQs, one-hundred percent right. House rule is the only solution, still.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
The problem is that the powers you have mentioned are templates/blasts. For templates, the rule book states "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end..." For blasts, the rule book states, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead..."

What this means is the codexes are not providing the exception to the rule that all PSAs require a roll to hit - it's the Rule Book itself. For the Tyranid/Ork/other powers which explicitly state they "automatically hit", there is a roll to hit, it's just that they automatically pass those rolls. I do agree that there are exceptions, but they are usually explicitly spelled out, either by stating they automatically hit or, like with templates/blasts, the rules for resolving that weapon type instruct you to do something else instead of rolling to hit.

However, there are still powers like Thunderclap which clearly does not either use Blast Rules, or require Roll to hit; even though it is explicitly stated that it is a PSA.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Two things, first there is more the one way to skin a cat. The assumption that the only way to hit something without a roll is you have to see "automatically hits" is just that an assumption. In the PSA section it also tells you clearly that execptions will be covered in the codex but purposefully left ambiguous so they may use many different ways to make rules. That is why I feel it is garbage. It feels narrow minded and restrictive to me when its plain as day they meant to leave it open ended.

Secondly, you do notice that vibro cannons are different to Jaws and Blood Lance, the vibro cannon explicatly states you need to role to hit before placing the line, where Jaws and Blood lance tell you to place the line. It is a subtle difference, I know, but like you said (precedence) GW would have placed the same text in to make it that way.

Not really, on the "automatically hit" bit. GW uses the "automatically pass" style of writing in other places as well - Fearless, for example, states "Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests". ATSKNF states "...automatically pass tests to regroup". There is a decent amount of precedence for GW using this language choice. It's how GW indicates that such rolls are not needed, unless the rules for resolving a power or test explicitly state to do something else instead of making the roll (templates), or state that no roll to hit is required (blasts).

The problem with Jaws and Blood Lance is that they don't tell you to roll to hit, but they also don't tell you to skip the roll to hit. You are arguing that in the absence of the power stating that it requires a roll to hit means its an exception to the FAQ, which states all PSAs require a roll to hit. We're saying there's nothing in the text of the power that allows it to skip this roll, and the FAQ supports us. The previous sticking point of how do you resolve the power if you add the roll to hit - and I'll admit, I had no clue about it either which never sat right with me - has been resolved, thanks to those who pointed out Vibro Cannons. Vibrocannons provides us the necessary precedence to clarify that one sticking point. Now it's purely a point of does the absence of text imply an exception to a hard rule.

As for your assertion that Vibro Cannons are special in that they explicitly state they have to roll to hit - well, you're half right. They are special, but not in that they have to roll to hit. If I'm understanding the rules right, and Eldar players who are more familiar with their rules please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you can have several vibro cannons in a single squad. No matter how many vibro cannons are in the squad, you only draw one line - even if all of them hit. Similarly, even if all but one miss, you still draw the line. Each additional vibro cannon in the squad increases the strength of the weapon by 1, and essentially provides greater reliability for the gun to hit. This intricacy in how to resolve multiple vibrocannons firing within the same squad is an intricacy that Blood Lance and JoTWW do not share. If you consider this, it's not all that unreasonable that the PSAs didn't include similar text.

Backfire wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
The problem is that the powers you have mentioned are templates/blasts. For templates, the rule book states "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end..." For blasts, the rule book states, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead..."

What this means is the codexes are not providing the exception to the rule that all PSAs require a roll to hit - it's the Rule Book itself. For the Tyranid/Ork/other powers which explicitly state they "automatically hit", there is a roll to hit, it's just that they automatically pass those rolls. I do agree that there are exceptions, but they are usually explicitly spelled out, either by stating they automatically hit or, like with templates/blasts, the rules for resolving that weapon type instruct you to do something else instead of rolling to hit.

However, there are still powers like Thunderclap which clearly does not either use Blast Rules, or require Roll to hit; even though it is explicitly stated that it is a PSA.

Hate to break it to you, but given GWs new FAQ Thunderclap scatters. It's a psychic shooting attack which uses blast marker and has a weapons profile and it does not have any sort of exception to normal shooting rules. It's the same deal as with Eldritch Storm. You see, they inherit all the rules regarding psychic shooting attacks, unless explicitly stated they have any form of exceptions.

Backfire wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
The problem is that the powers you have mentioned are templates/blasts. For templates, the rule book states "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end..." For blasts, the rule book states, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead..."

What this means is the codexes are not providing the exception to the rule that all PSAs require a roll to hit - it's the Rule Book itself. For the Tyranid/Ork/other powers which explicitly state they "automatically hit", there is a roll to hit, it's just that they automatically pass those rolls. I do agree that there are exceptions, but they are usually explicitly spelled out, either by stating they automatically hit or, like with templates/blasts, the rules for resolving that weapon type instruct you to do something else instead of rolling to hit.

However, there are still powers like Thunderclap which clearly does not either use Blast Rules, or require Roll to hit; even though it is explicitly stated that it is a PSA.

Thundrclap is interesting. One could argue that a roll to hit is required prior to placing the blast, but that's not an argument I'd particularly feel like making. It'd perhaps be an interesting thought exercise, but in a game I wouldn't bat an eye if a Wolf player didn't roll to hit when using Thunderclap. (Well, I might at the fact he's using Thunderclap - aren't there better powers?) You do have a point, there are still some holes where the rules are ambiguous, and some amount of interpretation is necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:
Hate to break it to you, but given GWs new FAQ Thunderclap scatters. It's a psychic shooting attack which uses blast marker and has a weapons profile and it does not have any sort of exception to normal shooting rules. It's the same deal as with Eldritch Storm. You see, they inherit all the rules regarding psychic shooting attacks, unless explicitly stated they have any form of exceptions.

Thunderclap doesn't have a weapons profile. It states as part of the text how to resolve the hits. Eldritch Storm is a poor comparison, as it does have a weapons profile, and a range. Thunderclap has no range - the template is placed so that it is touching the Rune Priest.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
Not really, on the "automatically hit" bit. GW uses the "automatically pass" style of writing in other places as well - Fearless, for example, states "Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests". ATSKNF states "...automatically pass tests to regroup". There is a decent amount of precedence for GW using this language choice. It's how GW indicates that such rolls are not needed, unless the rules for resolving a power or test explicitly state to do something else instead of making the roll (templates), or state that no roll to hit is required (blasts).

The problem with Jaws and Blood Lance is that they don't tell you to roll to hit, but they also don't tell you to skip the roll to hit. You are arguing that in the absence of the power stating that it requires a roll to hit means its an exception to the FAQ, which states all PSAs require a roll to hit. We're saying there's nothing in the text of the power that allows it to skip this roll, and the FAQ supports us. The previous sticking point of how do you resolve the power if you add the roll to hit - and I'll admit, I had no clue about it either which never sat right with me - has been resolved, thanks to those who pointed out Vibro Cannons. Vibrocannons provides us the necessary precedence to clarify that one sticking point. Now it's purely a point of does the absence of text imply an exception to a hard rule.

I am saying that with the absence of the statment roll to hit combined with the statement that anything in the lines path suffers strength 8, ap 1 hit. Makes it so it is an execption. Not that the absence alone makes it so I don't have to roll.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
As for your assertion that Vibro Cannons are special in that they explicitly state they have to roll to hit - well, you're half right. They are special, but not in that they have to roll to hit. If I'm understanding the rules right, and Eldar players who are more familiar with their rules please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you can have several vibro cannons in a single squad. No matter how many vibro cannons are in the squad, you only draw one line - even if all of them hit. Similarly, even if all but one miss, you still draw the line. Each additional vibro cannon in the squad increases the strength of the weapon by 1, and essentially provides greater reliability for the gun to hit. This intricacy in how to resolve multiple vibrocannons firing within the same squad is an intricacy that Blood Lance and JoTWW do not share. If you consider this, it's not all that unreasonable that the PSAs didn't include similar text.

When does a rule from one codex set a precendence for another? Like you said there is an intricacy to firing virbo cannons seeing how you can have more then one in a squad and only one every hits. This intricracy is not present with Jaws or BL, so how does this effect either of said rules? You say it is a presedence, I agree we differ in where the precedence occurs. I see that Vibro cannons are a unique set of circumstances, they ignore the normal rules for shooting and submit thier own. Just like Jaws and BL, they explain how they work and ignore the rules for normal PSA's.

With this much said, I think we are going to agree to disagree here. I will talk with TO's and other gamers at the time of the game and see where they come out on this.

Makes taking a chooser of the slain an easy choice

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

I am saying that with the absence of the statment roll to hit combined with the statement that anything in the lines path suffers strength 8, ap 1 hit. Makes it so it is an execption. Not that the absence alone makes it so I don't have to roll.

The absence of the statement does not imply that the roll is no longer required. Most of the psychic powers do not explicitly include the text "roll to hit", or "if the power hits." Under your logic, can we then say that every psychic shooting attack that doesn't state it must roll to hit is an exception to the FAQ? If no, then why not? Why does the absence of text for JoTWW/Blood Lance mean they are an exception, but for everyone else it doesn't? Do you see the logical inconsistency?

That the power says that anything in the lines path suffers a strength 8, ap 1 hit - vibro cannons also have that same line, but it's 1d6 hits and doesn't give the strength and AP. If stating "anything in the lines path suffers a X hit" meant that to fire the weapon you didn't require a roll to hit, then the rules for vibro cannons would contradict itself. Now, what that does imply is that after the initial roll-to-hit to see if the line is placed, additional rolls to hit against each unit are not necessary. But that's it. It doesn't support your argument at all.

There's nothing in the text that provides the exception. JoTWW and Blood Lance both require a single roll to hit, as per the FAQ. Vibro Cannons do not change whether or not the roll to hit is required, it just provides a precedence for when - that is, prior to drawing the line. This does not negate or contradict anything in the text of those powers. And as I've already pointed out, GW uses the text "automatically pass/hit", "instead of rolling to hit", "do not roll to hit. Instead...", or some other text that makes it abundantly clear what is going on when they are indicating that no roll is required. So, how do you justify the lack of similar text in JoTWW/Blood Lance? If they wanted these powers to skip the roll to hit, they would have said "Instead of rolling to hit, draw a line...." - but they don't.

When does a rule from one codex set a precendence for another? Like you said there is an intricacy to firing virbo cannons seeing how you can have more then one in a squad and only one every hits. This intricracy is not present with Jaws or BL, so how does this effect either of said rules? You say it is a presedence, I agree we differ in where the precedence occurs. I see that Vibro cannons are a unique set of circumstances, they ignore the normal rules for shooting and submit thier own. Just like Jaws and BL, they explain how they work and ignore the rules for normal PSA's.

With this much said, I think we are going to agree to disagree here. I will talk with TO's and other gamers at the time of the game and see where they come out on this.

The intricacy for firing multiple vibro cannons in a squad is justification for them going back to base-rule-book level explanation and detailing how you fire a weapon that impacts everything on a single line. Without that intricacy, would they have felt the need to include all of the roll-to-hit stuff? I don't know, maybe. I just know your argument that "vibro cannons are unique in stating they require a roll to hit, but my power doesn't say I have to, so I don't have to. And because it doesn't say I have to, I get to ignore this other rule in the FAQ that states I require a roll to hit, because I'm obviously an exception." is a really weak argument.

Night's Blood wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

terranarc wrote:As FAQ triumphs codex, yes they need to hit.

However, as I play it, PSA = shooting and I use this order of operations:
Teardrop = autohit
If it specifically says it auto-hits then it auto-hits.
If its blast then it scatters as per shooting a blast weapon
If it does NOT specifically mentions that it auto hits but does mention that it is a PSA, then it rolls to hit.

Either way whether you play it RAI like me or hardcore RAW by GW, JotWW rolls to hit.

A FAQ to the BRB is not more specific then a codex exception as listed on page 50. So, wrong and please try again.

Ramses, if you have no rebuttal to cold hard logic then please leave the thread.

JotWW is a PSA, PSA's require a roll to hit. This was cemented in the FAQ. In your own words "try again".

Considering that you obviously have zero comprehension over the hierarchy of the rules in this game, you don't belong in this forum or any rules discussion.

The BRB are the general rules for this game. The codexes are specific rules that work within the BRB framework. A BRB FAQ applies the the general rules of the BRB, however does not overrule the specific rules of the individual codexes. This is reinforced by the BRB ruling that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be found in the codexes.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Two things, first there is more the one way to skin a cat. The assumption that the only way to hit something without a roll is you have to see "automatically hits" is just that an assumption. In the PSA section it also tells you clearly that execptions will be covered in the codex but purposefully left ambiguous so they may use many different ways to make rules. That is why I feel it is garbage. It feels narrow minded and restrictive to me when its plain as day they meant to leave it open ended.

Secondly, you do notice that vibro cannons are different to Jaws and Blood Lance, the vibro cannon explicatly states you need to role to hit before placing the line, where Jaws and Blood lance tell you to place the line. It is a subtle difference, I know, but like you said (precedence) GW would have placed the same text in to make it that way.

Not really, on the "automatically hit" bit. GW uses the "automatically pass" style of writing in other places as well - Fearless, for example, states "Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests". ATSKNF states "...automatically pass tests to regroup". There is a decent amount of precedence for GW using this language choice. It's how GW indicates that such rolls are not needed, unless the rules for resolving a power or test explicitly state to do something else instead of making the roll (templates), or state that no roll to hit is required (blasts).

The problem with Jaws and Blood Lance is that they don't tell you to roll to hit, but they also don't tell you to skip the roll to hit. You are arguing that in the absence of the power stating that it requires a roll to hit means its an exception to the FAQ, which states all PSAs require a roll to hit. We're saying there's nothing in the text of the power that allows it to skip this roll, and the FAQ supports us. The previous sticking point of how do you resolve the power if you add the roll to hit - and I'll admit, I had no clue about it either which never sat right with me - has been resolved, thanks to those who pointed out Vibro Cannons. Vibrocannons provides us the necessary precedence to clarify that one sticking point. Now it's purely a point of does the absence of text imply an exception to a hard rule.

As for your assertion that Vibro Cannons are special in that they explicitly state they have to roll to hit - well, you're half right. They are special, but not in that they have to roll to hit. If I'm understanding the rules right, and Eldar players who are more familiar with their rules please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you can have several vibro cannons in a single squad. No matter how many vibro cannons are in the squad, you only draw one line - even if all of them hit. Similarly, even if all but one miss, you still draw the line. Each additional vibro cannon in the squad increases the strength of the weapon by 1, and essentially provides greater reliability for the gun to hit. This intricacy in how to resolve multiple vibrocannons firing within the same squad is an intricacy that Blood Lance and JoTWW do not share. If you consider this, it's not all that unreasonable that the PSAs didn't include similar text.

Awesome, well reasoned point. Really refreshing to see something so well put versus the continous parroting of the BRB FAQ. Now here is where I see fault in your point;

The general rule for psychic shooting attacks is that they need a hit roll. That is plain as day. However the first paragraph on page 50 that explains how the general rules for psychic powers are EMPLOYED and how exceptions for said psychic powers are to be EMPLOYED will be found in the codexes destroys any argument that you must specifically dictate that you do not roll to hit, when you do not roll to hit.

The codex exceptions are not a checklist of exclusions from the general rules. It is an exception on how you employ the psychic power that differs from how you employ them normally. For example;

I point back to my previous remarks about JotWW not specifically telling you that you do not roll to wound despite that being a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. Your are not specifically excluded from rolling to wound, but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by determing how models are, "wounded" by failing an iniative test. JottWW does not specifically tell you not to declare a target but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by telling you that the first model the power affects will be treated as the target model.

This is how codex exceptions work. They do not go by a checklist telling you each and every general rule is specifically excluded. The proof lies in the comparison of the following three psychic shooting attacks;

Jaws of the World Wolf
Living Lightning
Fury of the Wolf Spirits

You can go through each one of them word by word and see where the codex exceptions are employed and where they are not and thus must follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:The absence of the statement does not imply that the roll is no longer required. Most of the psychic powers do not explicitly include the text "roll to hit", or "if the power hits." Under your logic, can we then say that every psychic shooting attack that doesn't state it must roll to hit is an exception to the FAQ? If no, then why not? Why does the absence of text for JoTWW/Blood Lance mean they are an exception, but for everyone else it doesn't? Do you see the logical inconsistency?

You are ignoring the very fact that the power says that any unit in the lines path suffers a hit. You, and this is the second time you have done this, are putting words into my mouth by saying that I think that since it does not say you must roll to hit it does hit. When in fact that is what you are thinking. You missed the second part of the quote where I say that because it says units under the lines path suffers hits. That right there is the execption. Plain as day! Not that it doesn't say I have to roll to hit. You are more interested in trying to make what I say out to be absurd and are missing the point.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:That the power says that anything in the lines path suffers a strength 8, ap 1 hit - vibro cannons also have that same line, but it's 1d6 hits and doesn't give the strength and AP. If stating "anything in the lines path suffers a X hit" meant that to fire the weapon you didn't require a roll to hit, then the rules for vibro cannons would contradict itself. Now, what that does imply is that after the initial roll-to-hit to see if the line is placed, additional rolls to hit against each unit are not necessary. But that's it. It doesn't support your argument at all.

Execpt that you are ignoring the first part of the sentence for Vibro cannons, "If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction." So right there it is specific to exclusively Vibro cannons. Your arguement that virbo cannons do in fact effect Jaws and BL are cut down by the very wording in Virbo cannons, because it is specifically callling out vibro cannons. Also you have to hit with at least one vibro cannon in order to fulfill the rest of the rules yes? So at the point to where you draw the lines there is already a hit! You cannot draw the line without the hit, where BL and Jaws tell you to draw the line without any precursors or requirement after taking the test. Where does the presence, again, in a rule in one codex relate specifcally to another in a different codex?

CiaranAnnrach wrote:There's nothing in the text that provides the exception. JoTWW and Blood Lance both require a single roll to hit, as per the FAQ. Vibro Cannons do not change whether or not the roll to hit is required, it just provides a precedence for when - that is, prior to drawing the line. This does not negate or contradict anything in the text of those powers. And as I've already pointed out, GW uses the text "automatically pass/hit", "instead of rolling to hit", "do not roll to hit. Instead...", or some other text that makes it abundantly clear what is going on when they are indicating that no roll is required. So, how do you justify the lack of similar text in JoTWW/Blood Lance? If they wanted these powers to skip the roll to hit, they would have said "Instead of rolling to hit, draw a line...." - but they don't.

Please see above

CiaranAnnrach wrote:The intricacy for firing multiple vibro cannons in a squad is justification for them going back to base-rule-book level explanation and detailing how you fire a weapon that impacts everything on a single line. Without that intricacy, would they have felt the need to include all of the roll-to-hit stuff? I don't know, maybe. I just know your argument that "vibro cannons are unique in stating they require a roll to hit, but my power doesn't say I have to, so I don't have to. And because it doesn't say I have to, I get to ignore this other rule in the FAQ that states I require a roll to hit, because I'm obviously an exception." is a really weak argument.

You are ignoring the text of the rule and what I have said multiple times with this statment.... The FAQ which is a part of the BRB reference the PSA stuff, right? Well you must read all of the PSA stuff, which includes how there are execptions. Pointing to the FAQ and saying but this say all PSA require rolls to hit, but ignoring the other half of the rules where it tells you execptions are listed in the codexes is faulty reasoning and feels like people are putting thier fingers in their ears and saying nope can't hear you! Especailly when I can point to a section where in the PSA that says that units under the line suffers a blah blah blah hit. Virbo cannons in fact have to hit before placing the line, BL and Jaws tells you to place the line. There is also another similarity between these rules you must roll to see if they work. Virbo cannon to hit roll, then if any hit, place a line blah blah blah. Jaws and BL take a psychic test place line blah blah blah.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Awesome, well reasoned point. Really refreshing to see something so well put versus the continous parroting of the BRB FAQ. Now here is where I see fault in your point;

The general rule for psychic shooting attacks is that they need a hit roll. That is plain as day. However the first paragraph on page 50 that explains how the general rules for psychic powers are EMPLOYED and how exceptions for said psychic powers are to be EMPLOYED will be found in the codexes destroys any argument that you must specifically dictate that you do not roll to hit, when you do not roll to hit.

The codex exceptions are not a checklist of exclusions from the general rules. It is an exception on how you employ the psychic power that differs from how you employ them normally. For example;

I point back to my previous remarks about JotWW not specifically telling you that you do not roll to wound despite that being a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. Your are not specifically excluded from rolling to wound, but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by determing how models are, "wounded" by failing an iniative test. JottWW does not specifically tell you not to declare a target but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by telling you that the first model the power affects will be treated as the target model.

This is how codex exceptions work. They do not go by a checklist telling you each and every general rule is specifically excluded. The proof lies in the comparison of the following three psychic shooting attacks;

Jaws of the World Wolf
Living Lightning
Fury of the Wolf Spirits

You can go through each one of them word by word and see where the codex exceptions are employed and where they are not and thus must follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

I've read the first paragraph of page 50, and I completely understand your point about how a codex can override the general rules. I'm just not seeing where in the text of JoTWW that it provides the exception to requiring a roll-to-hit. If it had something like "instead of rolling to hit", or "do not roll to hit" like the text does for resolving templates or blasts, then I'd have no problems with JoTWW not requiring a roll to hit. But as it is worded, any exception JoTWW has against the FAQ is an exception implied by a lack of text, which is something I have a hard time swallowing, particularly when most psychic powers don't state they require a roll to hit in their descriptions, either.

The problem I have with your comparison of JoTWW and the other two powers is that the other two inflict wounds, whereas JoTWW forces a characteristic test and does not wound, and only wounds require a to-wound roll. So in a sense you are specifically excluded from rolling to wound. It's the same logic that denies models hit by JoTWW from taking a cover save, but those are differences for the power's effects on models - not for how the power is fired, which is the point of contention here. That particular argument breaks completely if you consider Blood Lance, which is identical in how you fire the weapon, but instead of forcing a characteristic tests it inflicts wounds on a per-unit basis. Or are you of the opinion that you do have to roll-to-hit for Blood Lance and not for JoTWW?


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Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

You are ignoring the very fact that the power says that any unit in the lines path suffers a hit. You, and this is the second time you have done this, are putting words into my mouth by saying that I think that since it does not say you must roll to hit it does hit. When in fact that is what you are thinking. You missed the second part of the quote where I say that because it says units under the lines path suffers hits. That right there is the execption. Plain as day! Not that it doesn't say I have to roll to hit. You are more interested in trying to make what I say out to be absurd and are missing the point.

And you are ignoring the point that, if the roll-to-hit comes before placing that line, then that line never occurs, and no models are hit. The difference is I fully understand where you are coming from, and haven't ignored your point at all. You have, however, completely ignored my point, and continue to parrot that one fragment of text - a fragment of text that vibro cannons share. The text of the power does not preclude there being a roll to hit between "This power is a psychic shooting attack." and "Extend a straight line..."

Execpt that you are ignoring the first part of the sentence for Vibro cannons, "If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction." So right there it is specific to exclusively Vibro cannons. Your arguement that virbo cannons do in fact effect Jaws and BL are cut down by the very wording in Virbo cannons, because it is specifically callling out vibro cannons. Also you have to hit with at least one vibro cannon in order to fulfill the rest of the rules yes? So at the point to where you draw the lines there is already a hit! You cannot draw the line without the hit, where BL and Jaws tell you to draw the line without any precursors or requirement after taking the test. Where does the presence, again, in a rule in one codex relate specifcally to another in a different codex?

I'm not claiming vibro cannons affect Jaws and BL. I'm claiming the FAQ affects Jaws and BL, stating that they require a Roll to Hit, and that we can use vibro cannons as a model for how to apply the FAQ to Jaws and BL.

Please see above

Please, by all means, take your own advice.

You are ignoring the text of the rule and what I have said multiple times with this statment.... The FAQ which is a part of the BRB reference the PSA stuff, right? Well you must read all of the PSA stuff, which includes how there are execptions. Pointing to the FAQ and saying but this say all PSA require rolls to hit, but ignoring the other half of the rules where it tells you execptions are listed in the codexes is faulty reasoning and feels like people are putting thier fingers in their ears and saying nope can't hear you! Especailly when I can point to a section where in the PSA that says that units under the line suffers a blah blah blah hit. Virbo cannons in fact have to hit before placing the line, BL and Jaws tells you to place the line. There is also another similarity between these rules you must roll to see if they work. Virbo cannon to hit roll, then if any hit, place a line blah blah blah. Jaws and BL take a psychic test place line blah blah blah.

I've read that. I'm asking you where the exception is, and so far you have not given me a satisfactory exception. The same can be said for you, it really feels like you are just parroting that one line, and ignoring the possibility that the roll-to-hit comes prior to placing the line. Yes, vibro cannons tell you to roll to hit. But Jaws and BL don't tell you not to roll to hit. But neither does almost any other PSA - so again, why is the roll-to-hit implied for, say, Living Lightning but not Blood Lance?

Mahtamori wrote:

Backfire wrote:
However, there are still powers like Thunderclap which clearly does not either use Blast Rules, or require Roll to hit; even though it is explicitly stated that it is a PSA.

Hate to break it to you, but given GWs new FAQ Thunderclap scatters. It's a psychic shooting attack which uses blast marker and has a weapons profile and it does not have any sort of exception to normal shooting rules. It's the same deal as with Eldritch Storm. You see, they inherit all the rules regarding psychic shooting attacks, unless explicitly stated they have any form of exceptions.

Hate to break it to you, but Thunderclap is not a Blast weapon (unlike Eldritch Storm, which is), hence, it does not use scatter. And clearly, it does not Roll to hit either. So there we have it - PSA which does not roll to hit.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Awesome, well reasoned point. Really refreshing to see something so well put versus the continous parroting of the BRB FAQ. Now here is where I see fault in your point;

The general rule for psychic shooting attacks is that they need a hit roll. That is plain as day. However the first paragraph on page 50 that explains how the general rules for psychic powers are EMPLOYED and how exceptions for said psychic powers are to be EMPLOYED will be found in the codexes destroys any argument that you must specifically dictate that you do not roll to hit, when you do not roll to hit.

The codex exceptions are not a checklist of exclusions from the general rules. It is an exception on how you employ the psychic power that differs from how you employ them normally. For example;

I point back to my previous remarks about JotWW not specifically telling you that you do not roll to wound despite that being a general rule for psychic shooting attacks. Your are not specifically excluded from rolling to wound, but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by determing how models are, "wounded" by failing an iniative test. JottWW does not specifically tell you not to declare a target but the psychic power employs an exception to the general rules by telling you that the first model the power affects will be treated as the target model.

This is how codex exceptions work. They do not go by a checklist telling you each and every general rule is specifically excluded. The proof lies in the comparison of the following three psychic shooting attacks;

Jaws of the World Wolf
Living Lightning
Fury of the Wolf Spirits

You can go through each one of them word by word and see where the codex exceptions are employed and where they are not and thus must follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

I've read the first paragraph of page 50, and I completely understand your point about how a codex can override the general rules. I'm just not seeing where in the text of JoTWW that it provides the exception to requiring a roll-to-hit. If it had something like "instead of rolling to hit", or "do not roll to hit" like the text does for resolving templates or blasts, then I'd have no problems with JoTWW not requiring a roll to hit. But as it is worded, any exception JoTWW has against the FAQ is an exception implied by a lack of text, which is something I have a hard time swallowing, particularly when most psychic powers don't state they require a roll to hit in their descriptions, either.

The problem I have with your comparison of JoTWW and the other two powers is that the other two inflict wounds, whereas JoTWW forces a characteristic test and does not wound, and only wounds require a to-wound roll. So in a sense you are specifically excluded from rolling to wound. It's the same logic that denies models hit by JoTWW from taking a cover save, but those are differences for the power's effects on models - not for how the power is fired, which is the point of contention here. That particular argument breaks completely if you consider Blood Lance, which is identical in how you fire the weapon, but instead of forcing a characteristic tests it inflicts wounds on a per-unit basis. Or are you of the opinion that you do have to roll-to-hit for Blood Lance and not for JoTWW?

You acknowledge that JotW has an exception to the to wound rolls because it does not cause wounds but cannot see the exception to a to hit roll when JotWW never hits a target?

The rule is clear as day that it never hits a target. A psychic test is passed, a 24" line is placed. The first model that will be affected by the power must be in LoS. Any of the susceptible unit types touched by the line must take an initiative test. It never hits a target.

That is the exception employed instead of rolling to hit as per the general rules. The psychic power affects units based on placement of a line that touches, NOT HITS, models that must then take an initiative test.

I haven't even acknowledged the vibro cannon argument as it specifically tells you to roll to hit before placing the line to actually hit models. Not to see if the line touches models, but to see if it hits models. That is the key difference.

Blood Lance is a little less clear because it does specify hits, however the instructions given by the rule itself still set it as a codex exception on how to employ a psychic shooting attack that partially does and doesn't follow the general rules.

Brother Ramses wrote:

The rule is clear as day that it never hits a target. A psychic test is passed, a 24" line is placed. The first model that will be affected by the power must be in LoS. Any of the susceptible unit types touched by the line must take an initiative test. It never hits a target.

The FAQ specifically defines that a PSA to hit test is required between these two events.

BR - you're being disingenuous again. THe FAQ does specify a target for Jaws

JotWW does not roll to hit for the simple reason that the line already causes "hits".

If you have a psychic attack which causes wounds (like Mind War) you do not roll to wound, do you? Similarly, when you have psychic attack which causes "hits", you don't roll to hit, because the target was already "hit".

It is really that simple.

"........models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test........."

Seems simple really, the line touches the models, they must take an Initiative test, no mention of a roll to hit.

In the end, leave it for the TOs and in-house rules decisions to decide if they do or do not need to roll a hit.

do you roll to hit with murderous hurricane then?
it's a psychic shooting attack...? since it says the unit takes 3d6 hits it doesnt look like it.
similar jotww says each model affected takes a "hit" you also dont need to roll it seems

BoTW,

RAW, Yes, as it doesn't specificly state it auto hits.

Order of Operations are as follows:

Roll Psychic Test, Pass
Does Murderous Hurricane Hit, roll to hit
How many times does it hit, roll 3D6
Etc.

Toastedandy wrote:"........models that are touched by this line must take an Initiative test........."

Seems simple really, the line touches the models, they must take an Initiative test, no mention of a roll to hit.

Lack of mentioning to-hit would imply it is required, as the ability is of a type that states this is the case.
Again, it also neglects to mention that psychic tests are needed (as well as to hit rolls). Do you ignore both? Ignoring one seems...shady

The rules for abilities list what happens when they WORK.

This mean psychic test and to-hit rolls for PSAs.

Unless you use INAT.

Oddly, SW actually DO have a PSA that does affect its target even if the to-hit fails. JotWW is not it.
(P.S. blast weapons do not roll to-hit as a rule)
Regardless, if it is a real debate at a table, always play the weaker interpretation for yourself.
If a Space Marine failing a to-hit roll costs you a game, nit-picking rules interpretations is not where your focus should be.

/shrug

Night's Blood wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

The rule is clear as day that it never hits a target. A psychic test is passed, a 24" line is placed. The first model that will be affected by the power must be in LoS. Any of the susceptible unit types touched by the line must take an initiative test. It never hits a target.

The FAQ specifically defines that a PSA to hit test is required between these two events.

You are a lost cause, not even going to bother since it has been rehased 1000x over.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - you're being disingenuous again. THe FAQ does specify a target for Jaws

Nos, you do not declare a target and check LoS with JotWW per the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. The FAQ itself is a codex exceptionto employ the psychic power that is different from declaring a target and checking LoS. Point out where I am being disingenuous.

General Rule:

Declare a Target/Check LoS

JotWW:

The first model the power will affect is treated as the target model and must be in LoS.

That is supernova-blindingly a different method of employing the psychic shooting attack versus the general rules. So again, how am I being disingenuous?

You keep on stating there is no target. That is a straight lie.

Additional problem with the interpretation that "JotWW needs roll to hit" is that what happens if the roll fails?

Some people assumes that the power then fails completely, but given that Murderous Hurricane already estabilishes that the power "works" even if it "fails to hit" (whatever that means), then it seems to me that JotWW would work even if you failed to hit.

Anyway, that's pretty irrelevant as it is pretty clear to me that powers like JotWW are not meant to roll to hit.

i dont know about the english codex, but the german one says jotww is a psa,therefore has to roll to hit.

you need to roll to hit the first target,anything else on the line is an auto hit.

and like posted before:

arch1angel wrote:Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes

Does JotWW specifically state is does not need a roll to hit?

No.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You keep on stating there is no target. That is a straight lie.

Haha, no we actually see who is being the liar, you.

I said that the power never hits a target, and it doesn't. The power is resolved when it touches a target. I find ithilarious that a weak attempt at my argument actually results in your attempt at lying for misdirection.

Here is an easy one Nos, show me where JotWW has you declare a target, checks range to said target, and then where the power hits a target.

I know that you take a psychic test per the rules for psykers on page 50. If passed I know I place a 24" line starting from the rune priest per the rules in Codex SW. The first model that the power will be treated as the target mode and must be in LoS per the rules in Codex SW. I know any eligible model per the rules in Codex SW that is TOUCHED by the line must take an initiative test and if failed,is removed from play without any saves allowed.

So go ahead, try and misdirect and lie yourself out of this one.

Brother Ramses wrote:

You acknowledge that JotW has an exception to the to wound rolls because it does not cause wounds but cannot see the exception to a to hit roll when JotWW never hits a target?

The rule is clear as day that it never hits a target. A psychic test is passed, a 24" line is placed. The first model that will be affected by the power must be in LoS. Any of the susceptible unit types touched by the line must take an initiative test. It never hits a target.

That is the exception employed instead of rolling to hit as per the general rules. The psychic power affects units based on placement of a line that touches, NOT HITS, models that must then take an initiative test.

I haven't even acknowledged the vibro cannon argument as it specifically tells you to roll to hit before placing the line to actually hit models. Not to see if the line touches models, but to see if it hits models. That is the key difference.

Blood Lance is a little less clear because it does specify hits, however the instructions given by the rule itself still set it as a codex exception on how to employ a psychic shooting attack that partially does and doesn't follow the general rules.

Jaws doesn't have an exception to the roll-to-wounds. There is no exception to that roll, because in order for there to be an exception it would have to cause a wound. But because there are no wounds, there is no roll-to-wound. The exceptions in this power is that it affects all models in a straight line, and that it does not wound and instead forces an initiative test. But I have two problems with this argument. One, the presence of an exception does not imply the existence of another. Two, the exceptions that JoTWW does have are explicitly stated. Draw a line. Models touched by the line take an initiative test. What is not in the text is that the power doesn't require a roll-to-hit. But most PSAs don't mention the to-hit roll at all, so this isn't unusual.

The other problem with your argument in general is you claim the power never hits a target. This is untrue - it does hit a target, and the FAQ explicitly states that the first model/unit touched by the power is the target of this power. Otherwise, if it never hit a target, the Rune Priest could fire the power at any squad he wants, and then still be free to assault a different unit.

Vibro cannons I only bring up to demonstrate when in the resolution of the power the roll-to-hit would take place. That is, once prior to placing the line, and not for each model touched. The former doesn't break the text of the power, whereas the latter obviously does.


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Brother Ramses wrote:
Nos, you do not declare a target and check LoS with JotWW per the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. The FAQ itself is a codex exceptionto employ the psychic power that is different from declaring a target and checking LoS. Point out where I am being disingenuous.

General Rule:

Declare a Target/Check LoS

JotWW:

The first model the power will affect is treated as the target model and must be in LoS.

That is supernova-blindingly a different method of employing the psychic shooting attack versus the general rules. So again, how am I being disingenuous?

I actually don't see where JoTWW says that you do not declare a target. But most PSAs don't mention you declare a target, either. So where are you pulling this from? Is this another exception because the power doesn't say you have to declare a target? Interestingly enough, the only shooting attack I've seen so far that explicitly says you don't declare a target is Vibro Cannons.

If there wasn't a target of sorts, then JoTWW could be fired without LoS. But the fact it does require LoS means there must be a visible target for the Rune Priest to fire upon.