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Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So I know this isn't about Jaws but I think it is relevant to this particular discussion, Blood Lance says that you cast the power, roll 4d6, draw a line and everything in that line is hit.

Like Jaws where you draw a line and models are affected.

No as far as Blood Lance I see that in the paragraph discribing the power, how it is used and what not, that it says all units are hit, so does this mean they are hit by the power not requiring a to hit roll seeings how they are already hit, affected by the power?

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

It doesn't state that it automatically hits, so I would say yes, you have to roll to hit and then wound when using that power.

The big difference between JoTWW and Blood Lance is Blood Lance affects units, not individual models. So if the line traces through 4 members of the same unit, JoTWW affects all four members, whereas Blood Lance could only cause a maximum of one wound.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So I know this isn't about Jaws but I think it is relevant to this particular discussion, Blood Lance says that you cast the power, roll 4d6, draw a line and everything in that line is hit.

Like Jaws where you draw a line and models are affected.

No as far as Blood Lance I see that in the paragraph discribing the power, how it is used and what not, that it says all units are hit, so does this mean they are hit by the power not requiring a to hit roll seeings how they are already hit, affected by the power?

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

It doesn't state that it automatically hits, so I would say yes, you have to roll to hit and then wound when using that power.

The big difference between JoTWW and Blood Lance is Blood Lance affects units, not individual models. So if the line traces through 4 members of the same unit, JoTWW affects all four members, whereas Blood Lance could only cause a maximum of one wound.

So what your saying is I have to roll to hit units that are already hit????

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

Isn't the section I bolded enough to make you think they are already hit? If something suffers a hit, at what point do you roll to hit it? It seems redundant, and this "automatically hit" garbage is disgusting. Show anyone where in the rules that it must say automatically hit! Please, Please, Please!!!

Additionally, I know Jaws says it is a psychic shooting attack, but it also outlines how you affect models under the line right? (someone please post the rules for it) This is the same for blood lance only converted to units.

No, what we are saying is that it is one to hit roll.

if there are x models along the line, and you hit, you hit all x of them. if you miss, you miss all of them.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Show anyone where in the rules that it must say automatically hit! Please, Please, Please!!!

I think you are mistaken. The rules say psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, the rules have always said this, the FAQ actually doesn't change anything in that regard, just reminds people that they do have to roll to hit. The burden is upon you now, making the claim that it doesn't roll to hit.

"But," you say, "it tells us to draw a line, and that can be used to substitute the roll to hit." Well, that is all fine and dandy, but please, as you are making the claim that a line is a substitute for a roll to hit, show me where in the rules does it say "Drawing a line is a substitute to rolling to hit." Sure, a line is similar to a template. But the rules for templates do not also say lines.

As you will be hard pressed to find a rule outside of "How can a line miss?" stating that your line does not roll to hit, you have to fall back to the last known rule, that states something along the lines of "A Psychic shooting attack acts like other shooting attacks." So now, tell me, where does it say my storm bolter has to roll to hit?

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:So I know this isn't about Jaws but I think it is relevant to this particular discussion, Blood Lance says that you cast the power, roll 4d6, draw a line and everything in that line is hit.

Like Jaws where you draw a line and models are affected.

No as far as Blood Lance I see that in the paragraph discribing the power, how it is used and what not, that it says all units are hit, so does this mean they are hit by the power not requiring a to hit roll seeings how they are already hit, affected by the power?

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

It doesn't state that it automatically hits, so I would say yes, you have to roll to hit and then wound when using that power.

The big difference between JoTWW and Blood Lance is Blood Lance affects units, not individual models. So if the line traces through 4 members of the same unit, JoTWW affects all four members, whereas Blood Lance could only cause a maximum of one wound.

So what your saying is I have to roll to hit units that are already hit????

The exact wording of Blood Lance is "Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type."

Isn't the section I bolded enough to make you think they are already hit? If something suffers a hit, at what point do you roll to hit it? It seems redundant, and this "automatically hit" garbage is disgusting. Show anyone where in the rules that it must say automatically hit! Please, Please, Please!!!

Additionally, I know Jaws says it is a psychic shooting attack, but it also outlines how you affect models under the line right? (someone please post the rules for it) This is the same for blood lance only converted to units.

They are still apples and oranges. Blood Lance and JoTWW have completely different wordings. The only similarity between the two powers is that it works on a straight line - past that the two powers are completely different.

I'll concede your point on Blood Lance though - checking the terminology used for blasts and templates, they use the same terms - i.e. models under the blast are "hit". This is, however, somewhat easy to overlook when reading the power, and a consistency problem on GW's part. (Some powers inflict "hits" and don't have weapon profiles, others have weapon profiles or don't inflict wounds but explicitly state they automatically hit.)

But the "automatic hit garbage", as you politely put it, is the terminology used in other psychic powers to denote they do not require a roll to hit. And when the power states it automatically hits, there's no room for argument or disambiguation. So it's not "garbage" as you put it, but rather the way GW should be doing things if they intend for a psychic power to not require a roll to hit. Especially with the latest FAQ, which states that psychic shooting attacks do require a roll to hit. I would think that it's fairly obvious that something of that nature would need to be present if the power does not need a roll to hit.

Also, it's not just Tyranid PSAs which have the "automatic hit" text - the Ork powers Frazzle and Zzap also explicitly state they automatically hit. So there's a bit more precedence for it's use than a single codex.

JotWW specifically tells you that models the line touches must take a initiative test. It specifically makes an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks by telling you that what the line touches must take an initiative test.

Please point out where being touched by a line and taking an initiative test is any part of the general rules for psychic shooting attacks? It is the EXCEPTION.

And it still hasn't been answered what you are rolling to hit with JotWW.

The entire rule is a codex exception because nothing ever hits anything with the power. Whatever the line TOUCHES must take an initiative test. The first model AFFECTED by the power is in effect the target model. At no time whatsoever does JotWW hit an enemy model because the entire rule is a codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Grey Templar wrote:the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

it also doesn't say it has to target anything either

Bluewulf wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

it also doesn't say it has to target anything either

Neither does it day to NOT check range or NOT roll to wound, so JottW must also do those as well? Nope, because the entire rule is a codex exceptipn to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Brother Ramses wrote:the entire rule is a codex exceptipn to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

No, it is what happens when the psychic shooting attack works as intended.
It never mentions rolling a psychic test either, does it?
You still need to roll that one, right?

kirsanth wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:the entire rule is a codex exceptipn to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

No, it is what happens when the psychic shooting attack works as intended.
It never mentions rolling a psychic test either, does it?
You still need to roll that one, right?

Good point that it still follows he rules for using a a psychic power in that there is no exception to taking the psychic test nor is there an exception to Perils of the Warp. However we are talking about the existing exception to a psychic shooting attack not the general rules normallyfollowed on page 15.

JPong wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Show anyone where in the rules that it must say automatically hit! Please, Please, Please!!!

I think you are mistaken. The rules say psychic shooting attacks have to roll to hit, the rules have always said this, the FAQ actually doesn't change anything in that regard, just reminds people that they do have to roll to hit. The burden is upon you now, making the claim that it doesn't roll to hit.

"But," you say, "it tells us to draw a line, and that can be used to substitute the roll to hit." Well, that is all fine and dandy, but please, as you are making the claim that a line is a substitute for a roll to hit, show me where in the rules does it say "Drawing a line is a substitute to rolling to hit." Sure, a line is similar to a template. But the rules for templates do not also say lines.

As you will be hard pressed to find a rule outside of "How can a line miss?" stating that your line does not roll to hit, you have to fall back to the last known rule, that states something along the lines of "A Psychic shooting attack acts like other shooting attacks." So now, tell me, where does it say my storm bolter has to roll to hit?

Oh Jpong, I am not saying that the line causes the power to hit, I am saying in the power's explanation that "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type."
So right there I see that the power says that any enemy unit that is in the lines path suffers a hit. Not has a chance to be hit, might be hit, could be hit, but suffers a hit. I have an execption because I can plop down my codex and point to the part where it says this.

Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit. I was also asking for someone to post the actual power for Jaws because I do not own the codex and wish to see the full explantion of it.

And CiaranAnnrach why would they put that it "automatically hits" in the explantion if the rule says "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." At that point they are being redundant. Because the part about "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." makes the automatically hit part obsolete. Would they not have said that any enemy unit in the lines path could suffer a strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type? Or something to the same effect.

I look at it this way, I cast blood lance, pass (WOHOO!! ) I then see how long the lance will go, roll 4d6 (random number) 14inches I then decide to lay down the line in a certain direction. "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." I check how many units are on that path and they suffer a hit.

I also think that there is more similarity to these two powers other then the line. but that is niether here nor there. Maybe I should start another thread about blood lance, but it has been done before and I think these two powers will have the same ruling if ever FAQ'd.

My god, even after GW FAQ's it people still demand otherwise.
Also, INAT means diddly squat. INAT isn't remotely perfect and has been wrong on many things. But before going to INAT, I believe we should follow GW's rules.

Is JOTWW a PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACK?
If yes, refer to FAQs on how PSAs need to roll to hit.

If no, continue this debate and ignore the fact that JOTWW is written to be a PSA by GW, the creators of this game.

Whether a power is under/overpowered holds no merit in debating game mechanics.

So all Psychic Shooting Attacks require a roll to hit? No exceptions allowed at all?

Chrysis wrote:So all Psychic Shooting Attacks require a roll to hit? No exceptions allowed at all?

What does the FAQ say? Does it list any exceptions?

I'll take that as a "Yes, all PSAs roll to hit" and a "No, no exceptions allowed at all."

So now "The Avenger" (C: SM), "Wind of Chaos" (C: CSM), "Warp Rift" (C: GK), "Vortex of Doom" (Various), all of the Psychic Shooting Attacks from Codex: Tyranids, etc, all require rolls to hit because they are PSAs and the FAQ does not list any exceptions. Even though all have specified ways of resolving hits.

This is, frankly, absurd. Codexes must be able to override the requirement to roll to hit, or a huge number of psychic powers break down.

Bluewulf wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

it also doesn't say it has to target anything either

The SW FAQ makes it abundantly clear the the first model touched by the line is the target model.

"Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight? Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e., impassable terrain)? (p37)

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he is treated as the target model; the power just happens to hit everybody else on its way through!"
Followed by
"Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit? (p50)
A: Yes."



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:I'll take that as a "Yes, all PSAs roll to hit" and a "No, no exceptions allowed at all."

So now "The Avenger" (C: SM), "Wind of Chaos" (C: CSM), "Warp Rift" (C: GK), "Vortex of Doom" (Various), all of the Psychic Shooting Attacks from Codex: Tyranids, etc, all require rolls to hit because they are PSAs and the FAQ does not list any exceptions. Even though all have specified ways of resolving hits.

This is, frankly, absurd. Codexes must be able to override the requirement to roll to hit, or a huge number of psychic powers break down.

...the Nid dex has various PSAs that state 'this is a PSA that automatically hits.'

Are you trying to say that the other PSAs, in the same codex, which lack this type of wording, also do not need to roll to hit?

What about "This power is is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 24" that only affects vehicles. If the Machine Curse hits, the target vehicle automatically suffers a single glancing hit.".... with 'if it hits'.
or for PSAs which take the form of blast markers
"If when using this power the Librarian fails his Psychic test, place the Vortex of Doom blast marker on the Librarian - in this case the template will not scatter."

How about Codex BA, that has PSAs which take the time to say "this is a PSA that automatically hits." all the PSAs which don't say this, in the same dex, should automatically hit?.........

Etc etc etcetctectectec

As FAQ triumphs codex, yes they need to hit.

However, as I play it, PSA = shooting and I use this order of operations:
Teardrop = autohit
If it specifically says it auto-hits then it auto-hits.
If its blast then it scatters as per shooting a blast weapon
If it does NOT specifically mentions that it auto hits but does mention that it is a PSA, then it rolls to hit.

Either way whether you play it RAI like me or hardcore RAW by GW, JotWW rolls to hit.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

And CiaranAnnrach why would they put that it "automatically hits" in the explantion if the rule says "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." At that point they are being redundant. Because the part about "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." makes the automatically hit part obsolete. Would they not have said that any enemy unit in the lines path could suffer a strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type? Or something to the same effect.

I'd think that one would be obvious. It's so you don't get arguments like this one popping up everywhere about whether or not it needs to roll to hit. Had they just said, "Blood Lance automatically hits every unit in the lines path with a strength 8, AP 1 lance" - then there would be absolutely no need for us to even be having this conversation right now.

As it stands, its wording is somewhere between clear and ambiguous, and leaves people open to interpret it how they want. This is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the major problems inherent with GW's rule sets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:I'll take that as a "Yes, all PSAs roll to hit" and a "No, no exceptions allowed at all."

So now "The Avenger" (C: SM), "Wind of Chaos" (C: CSM), "Warp Rift" (C: GK), "Vortex of Doom" (Various), all of the Psychic Shooting Attacks from Codex: Tyranids, etc, all require rolls to hit because they are PSAs and the FAQ does not list any exceptions. Even though all have specified ways of resolving hits.

This is, frankly, absurd. Codexes must be able to override the requirement to roll to hit, or a huge number of psychic powers break down.

Umm, No? The Avenger is a template, and templates automatically hit. They have clear set rules on this.

Warp Rift and Vortex of Doom are both blasts, and scatter. Your roll to hit is your scatter roll. Were you under the assumption that they never scattered?

I don't have the C:CSM codex atm, but if it's another template/blast weapon, then you're just throwing out more red herrings. I don't see the point in bringing those up - they all use a well-defined, well known mechanism for hitting that mirrors their non-psychic shooting equivalents. JoTWW doesn't, hence the problem.

Warp Rift is a template, so doesnt scatter but auto hits

nosferatu1001 wrote:Warp Rift is a template, so doesnt scatter but auto hits

Damnit, you're right. I must have been looking at the Vortex of Doom entry in the C:GK and thought it was Warp Rift. My bad.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

And CiaranAnnrach why would they put that it "automatically hits" in the explantion if the rule says "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." At that point they are being redundant. Because the part about "Any enemy unit in the lines path suffers a single strength 8,AP1 hit with the 'lance' type." makes the automatically hit part obsolete. Would they not have said that any enemy unit in the lines path could suffer a strength 8, AP 1 hit with the "lance" type? Or something to the same effect.

I'd think that one would be obvious. It's so you don't get arguments like this one popping up everywhere about whether or not it needs to roll to hit. Had they just said, "Blood Lance automatically hits every unit in the lines path with a strength 8, AP 1 lance" - then there would be absolutely no need for us to even be having this conversation right now.

As it stands, its wording is somewhere between clear and ambiguous, and leaves people open to interpret it how they want. This is, as far as I'm concerned, one of the major problems inherent with GW's rule sets.

Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit. That is also part of this problem people seems to think unless it specifically says automatically hits, then they have to roll but I am showing you where in this particular rule that there is an execption. People have asked repeatedly for people to show where it says it hits, I have thrown down the exact wording of the rule and yet people are still stuck on automatically hits, and refuse to anwser, when is a hit not a hit? They also refuse to show anywhere in the BRB or FAQ's that automatically hit is the only way to hit without a BS roll.

Burden of proof has been laid at everyones feet to disprove what I have stated here, I have shown an execption inside the rules with the actual rules and explanations inside the BRB and BA codex.

Also as it stands I think it is not so ambiguous seeings how the only problem people are having is they do not see automatically hits. Which still leaves the question when is a hit not a hit?

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit. That is also part of this problem people seems to think unless it specifically says automatically hits, then they have to roll but I am showing you where in this particular rule that there is an execption. People have asked repeatedly for people to show where it says it hits, I have thrown down the exact wording of the rule and yet people are still stuck on automatically hits, and refuse to anwser, when is a hit not a hit? They also refuse to show anywhere in the BRB or FAQ's that automatically hit is the only way to hit without a BS roll.

Burden of proof has been laid at everyones feet to disprove what I have stated here, I have shown an execption inside the rules with the actual rules and explanations inside the BRB and BA codex.

Also as it stands I think it is not so ambiguous seeings how the only problem people are having is they do not see automatically hits. Which still leaves the question when is a hit not a hit?

Please read my posts a bit more carefully, instead of skipping over parts of them. Particularly...

CiaranAnnrach wrote:
I'll concede your point on Blood Lance though - checking the terminology used for blasts and templates, they use the same terms - i.e. models under the blast are "hit". This is, however, somewhat easy to overlook when reading the power, and a consistency problem on GW's part. (Some powers inflict "hits" and don't have weapon profiles, others have weapon profiles or don't inflict wounds but explicitly state they automatically hit.)

IF you had, you'd realize I'm not trying to claim Blood Lance requires a roll to hit, but rather complaining about the inconsistencies on GW's part in how they describe the thing. All I said in my previous post was, if GW had chosen to use the "automatic hit" text in describing the power instead of how they did it, not only would the meaning of the power remain the same, there would be zero room for misunderstanding or arguments such as these. So, feel free to step down from the soapbox, at least for Blood Lance.

terranarc wrote:As FAQ triumphs codex, yes they need to hit.

However, as I play it, PSA = shooting and I use this order of operations:
Teardrop = autohit
If it specifically says it auto-hits then it auto-hits.
If its blast then it scatters as per shooting a blast weapon
If it does NOT specifically mentions that it auto hits but does mention that it is a PSA, then it rolls to hit.

Either way whether you play it RAI like me or hardcore RAW by GW, JotWW rolls to hit.

A FAQ to the BRB is not more specific then a codex exception as listed on page 50. So, wrong and please try again.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Please post said rules so I can see them. Additionally, I do believe that vibro cannons are a special piece of wargear that only ever deal with themselves. So no, no where in the rules for this game is a hit not a hit, unless you can explain how vibro cannons effect the entire game. Special set of circumstances do not make it a constant. It's an execption like the ones we are discussing.

Ciaranannrach I was mearly commenting on how it is less ambiguous then people think, they are spliting hairs in order to gain an advantage and rules lawyering. That is what I find mildly disturbing.

or no in the end the results are the same. I just feel that at that point you were trying to deflect the arguement I was making and side tracking the discussion. Saying the rules are unclear and as far as your concerned couter acts your previous statement. If thats the way you feel do not try to argue other wise. Give up and say, "you know what I did not think of it that way" or disagree and give a reason why. Don't cop out and say the rules are unclear and its GW's fault.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Ciaranannrach I was mearly commenting on how it is less ambiguous then people think, they are spliting hairs in order to gain an advantage and rules lawyering. That is what I find mildly disturbing.

or no in the end the results are the same. I just feel that at that point you were trying to deflect the arguement I was making and side tracking the discussion. Saying the rules are unclear and as far as your concerned couter acts your previous statement. If thats the way you feel do not try to argue other wise. Give up and say, "you know what I did not think of it that way" or disagree and give a reason why. Don't cop out and say the rules are unclear
and its GW's fault.

Logically, if the rules were not ambiguous, then there never would have been a disagreement over it. The fact there was a disagreement (and continues to be one) implies that it is ambiguous. My point was and still remains, the "automatic hit" text is not garbage, as it prevents threads like this. That was the point I was trying to make, which was directly due to your assertion that it was garbage. No attempts to derail the thread, deflect from it, or side track it - at least not consciously; everything was in response to your own assertions.

Having just looked up Vibro Cannons, I'll provide to you the skinny on how they operate. Vibro cannons: Eldar artillery weapon, page 45. "When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. "

The parallel is that both Vibro Cannons, JoTWW, and Blood Lance are shooting attacks which operate on all units (models, in JoTWW's case) that a drawn line from the firing model crosses. Vibro Cannons explicitly state in its rules that a roll to hit must be made before drawing the line, and if the firer misses the line is not drawn. (Precedence.) The GW FAQ state that psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, which since JoTWW and Blood Lance are both psychic shooting attacks, means they require a roll to hit. Vibro Cannons provide the precedence required to work out how you roll to hit for a shooting attack that hits every unit/model in a straight line.

This invalidates my previous understanding of Blood Lance, as I assumed (incorrectly) that it and JoTWW were unique in using a straight line. (I'm not an Eldar player, and my friend who plays Eldar didn't field them when I played him when I still lived in Memphis.) I had assumed the roll to hit would have occured after the line was drawn. So, DarknessEternal, you know what, I did not look at it that way.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Chrysis wrote:I'll take that as a "Yes, all PSAs roll to hit" and a "No, no exceptions allowed at all."

So now "The Avenger" (C: SM), "Wind of Chaos" (C: CSM), "Warp Rift" (C: GK), "Vortex of Doom" (Various), all of the Psychic Shooting Attacks from Codex: Tyranids, etc, all require rolls to hit because they are PSAs and the FAQ does not list any exceptions. Even though all have specified ways of resolving hits.

This is, frankly, absurd. Codexes must be able to override the requirement to roll to hit, or a huge number of psychic powers break down.

Umm, No? The Avenger is a template, and templates automatically hit. They have clear set rules on this.

Warp Rift and Vortex of Doom are both blasts, and scatter. Your roll to hit is your scatter roll. Were you under the assumption that they never scattered?

I don't have the C:CSM codex atm, but if it's another template/blast weapon, then you're just throwing out more red herrings. I don't see the point in bringing those up - they all use a well-defined, well known mechanism for hitting that mirrors their non-psychic shooting equivalents. JoTWW doesn't, hence the problem.

I know that. That's why I said it's absurd.

But terranarc stated, even after clarification that PSAs MUST roll to hit, and there can be no exceptions. Those were all examples of powers that I believed everyone agreed would not roll to hit. He has also clarified that even though he firmly believes this position, he doesn't actually play it that way.

terranarc wrote:

Chrysis wrote:So all Psychic Shooting Attacks require a roll to hit? No exceptions allowed at all?

What does the FAQ say? Does it list any exceptions?

So you roll to hit for Thunderclap too?

I mean, it is also a PSA.

Chrysis wrote:
I know that. That's why I said it's absurd.

But terranarc stated, even after clarification that PSAs MUST roll to hit, and there can be no exceptions. Those were all examples of powers that I believed everyone agreed would not roll to hit. He has also clarified that even though he firmly believes this position, he doesn't actually play it that way.

Ahh. I see what you are saying now.

The problem is that the powers you have mentioned are templates/blasts. For templates, the rule book states "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end..." For blasts, the rule book states, "When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead..."

What this means is the codexes are not providing the exception to the rule that all PSAs require a roll to hit - it's the Rule Book itself. For the Tyranid/Ork/other powers which explicitly state they "automatically hit", there is a roll to hit, it's just that they automatically pass those rolls. I do agree that there are exceptions, but they are usually explicitly spelled out, either by stating they automatically hit or, like with templates/blasts, the rules for resolving that weapon type instruct you to do something else instead of rolling to hit.

CiaranAnnrach wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Now tell me where in any rules of this game is a hit not a hit, and you must roll to hit something which has suffered a hit.

Once again: Vibro Cannons.

Ciaranannrach I was mearly commenting on how it is less ambiguous then people think, they are spliting hairs in order to gain an advantage and rules lawyering. That is what I find mildly disturbing.

or no in the end the results are the same. I just feel that at that point you were trying to deflect the arguement I was making and side tracking the discussion. Saying the rules are unclear and as far as your concerned couter acts your previous statement. If thats the way you feel do not try to argue other wise. Give up and say, "you know what I did not think of it that way" or disagree and give a reason why. Don't cop out and say the rules are unclear
and its GW's fault.

Logically, if the rules were not ambiguous, then there never would have been a disagreement over it. The fact there was a disagreement (and continues to be one) implies that it is ambiguous. My point was and still remains, the "automatic hit" text is not garbage, as it prevents threads like this. That was the point I was trying to make, which was directly due to your assertion that it was garbage. No attempts to derail the thread, deflect from it, or side track it - at least not consciously; everything was in response to your own assertions.

Having just looked up Vibro Cannons, I'll provide to you the skinny on how they operate. Vibro cannons: Eldar artillery weapon, page 45. "When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits. "

The parallel is that both Vibro Cannons, JoTWW, and Blood Lance are shooting attacks which operate on all units (models, in JoTWW's case) that a drawn line from the firing model crosses. Vibro Cannons explicitly state in its rules that a roll to hit must be made before drawing the line, and if the firer misses the line is not drawn. (Precedence.) The GW FAQ state that psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, which since JoTWW and Blood Lance are both psychic shooting attacks, means they require a roll to hit. Vibro Cannons provide the precedence required to work out how you roll to hit for a shooting attack that hits every unit/model in a straight line.

This invalidates my previous understanding of Blood Lance, as I assumed (incorrectly) that it and JoTWW were unique in using a straight line. (I'm not an Eldar player, and my friend who plays Eldar didn't field them when I played him when I still lived in Memphis.) I had assumed the roll to hit would have occured after the line was drawn. So, DarknessEternal, you know what, I did not look at it that way.

Two things, first there is more the one way to skin a cat. The assumption that the only way to hit something without a roll is you have to see "automatically hits" is just that an assumption. In the PSA section it also tells you clearly that execptions will be covered in the codex but purposefully left ambiguous so they may use many different ways to make rules. That is why I feel it is garbage. It feels narrow minded and restrictive to me when its plain as day they meant to leave it open ended.

Secondly, you do notice that vibro cannons are different to Jaws and Blood Lance, the vibro cannon explicatly states you need to role to hit before placing the line, where Jaws and Blood lance tell you to place the line. It is a subtle difference, I know, but like you said (precedence) GW would have placed the same text in to make it that way.