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Cmon guys. JotW is exactly THAT overpowered. Let us change the INAT so it follows the actual rules.

Jaws was a poorly concieved power. It is totally overpowered vs certain armies and totally useless against others.


its not like its any one thing which makes Jaws so awful, its everything considered together.

It can snipe individual models: powerful combined with Low I upgrade models.

It is unfair to low I enemies: this makes it a fairly army specific power, so Nids and Orks get the shaft and no one else. again, not horrible but when combined with everything else its just too much.

you can have 4 models with Jaws in the army: this just exasperates the other problems.



Rolling to hit is the best thing to do for the sake of Game balance.

Interesting to see that the weak to hit roll argument needs to be augmented under the guise of, "what is good for the game".

Jaws is easily one of the weakest powers, next to Fury, that is 100% situationally based on an opposing army. List tailoring four rune priests is just as countered with any other army list tailoring against Jaws.

Here is a novel concept, don't worry about 1 model out of an entire army, blaming it for your crap playing if you cannot adjust around them. And facing 4, as I mentioned is list tailoring, so list tailor right back.

Brother Ramses wrote:Interesting to see that the weak to hit roll argument needs to be augmented under the guise of, "what is good for the game".

Jaws is easily one of the weakest powers, next to Fury, that is 100% situationally based on an opposing army. List tailoring four rune priests is just as countered with any other army list tailoring against Jaws.

Here is a novel concept, don't worry about 1 model out of an entire army, blaming it for your crap playing if you cannot adjust around them. And facing 4, as I mentioned is list tailoring, so list tailor right back.

That's interesting, coming from a Space Wolf player and you in particular.

JotWW is a poorly designed power. It uses an out-of-game mechanic for targeting and an unconventional method of removing models that because of its targeting is quite powerful against certain armies. With the overall power of a Space Wolf army in general, I can fully understand why some people would want to limit this power. The new GW FAQ seems to enforce this. Whether it's a weak argument or "for the good of the game" is irrelevant. As the FAQ ruling stands, it seems obvious that a to-hit roll is required.

I think it's listed as a PSA just so you can't use it more than once in a turn with some casters. Imagine say JotWW, Living lightning, JotWW in the same turn...

BR - the argumetn is a lot stronger than "but, but, exceptions!" that you keep attempting.

NIce ad hominem as well. Shocked.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - the argumetn is a lot stronger than "but, but, exceptions!" that you keep attempting.

NIce ad hominem as well. Shocked.

Single black pot looking for single black kettle for ironic and hypocritical conversation.

Seriously the argument for to roll to hit has gone through so many transformations it is pretty pathetic.

1. Not codex exception.
2. Does not specifically say it does not roll to hit or hits automatically.
3. Specific versus general.
4. Good for game balance.

While the argument for codex exception has not changed once because it covers everything that has been proposed against it. Good for game balance/Space Wolves hate is just the icing on the cake as it signifies the counter argument circling the toilet bowl as it finally gets flushed for the crap argument that it has been. To address each of the above;

1. It is the very definition of a codex exception because it is the rule as written in the codex telling you how to employ the psychic shooting attack outside the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

2. The rules for the codex exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks NEVER specifies how the codex exception will be written, just that they will tell you how to employ the psychic shooting attack different then the general rules for psychic shooting attacks. "Hits automatically" or "no roll to hit needed" are not the standard set by page 50 of the BRB.

3. The FAQ is a FAQ for the general rules for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB. They do not override the set rules for codex exceptions. Psychic shooting attacks need a roll to hit is the general, exceptions to the general rules will be found in the codex is general, Jaws rule is the specific.

4. LAWLZ! Haters gonna hate.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandor wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Interesting to see that the weak to hit roll argument needs to be augmented under the guise of, "what is good for the game".

Jaws is easily one of the weakest powers, next to Fury, that is 100% situationally based on an opposing army. List tailoring four rune priests is just as countered with any other army list tailoring against Jaws.

Here is a novel concept, don't worry about 1 model out of an entire army, blaming it for your crap playing if you cannot adjust around them. And facing 4, as I mentioned is list tailoring, so list tailor right back.

That's interesting, coming from a Space Wolf player and you in particular.

JotWW is a poorly designed power. It uses an out-of-game mechanic for targeting and an unconventional method of removing models that because of its targeting is quite powerful against certain armies. With the overall power of a Space Wolf army in general, I can fully understand why some people would want to limit this power. The new GW FAQ seems to enforce this. Whether it's a weak argument or "for the good of the game" is irrelevant. As the FAQ ruling stands, it seems obvious that a to-hit roll is required.

So you posted the Webway Portal thread? How does that apply at all? The limited edition webway portal dimensions are not supported by the rules set in the Dark Eldar codex for webway portals. How is that relevant?

The power that states what happens when it works.

For PSAs that means successfully rolling a psychic test and (now) successfully rolling to hit.
Unless your venue uses INAT.

BR - sigh.

My argument has remained consistent: ALL PSAs roll to hit, unless they state an exception.

Jaws doesnt. It rolls to hit. QED

I've seen JoTWW used to successfully snipe my Apothecary, when I was playing Dark Angels against my friend's Space Wolves. Against I4, it's a 33% chance (after the psychic test) to instant-kill whatever pesky special character you want. So it's still pretty fething good against most armies.

Can we save the "Is Jaws Overpowered?" talk for another thread where it is relevant, please?

The question here is simple: Does JoWW require a hit roll? Any answers that are not a "yes" or "no" or explanation of same are off topic.

The OP seems to have taken a position and Brother Ramses and nosferatu1001 certainly have theirs ;-) Can't we all just get along?

Because otherwise, I forsee a lock....

jmurph wrote:Can we save the "Is Jaws Overpowered?" talk for another thread where it is relevant, please?

The question here is simple: Does JoWW require a hit roll? Any answers that are not a "yes" or "no" or explanation of same are off topic.

The OP seems to have taken a position and Brother Ramses and nosferatu1001 certainly have theirs ;-) Can't we all just get along?

Because otherwise, I forsee a lock....

This.

The thread should be locked as it is the same arguments going back and forth since the FAQ was released. Anyone needing to ask should just search and they will get a plethora (si el guapo) of threads with both sides in it.

TOs from BAO, Nova, and all future major tournaments should post here whether or not they follow the INAT.

I vote that unless it specifically says that they do not roll to hit, they must roll to hit as normal for a PSA. This is based on 2 aspects:

1) The ability rule (iirc) does not explicitely state that it does not require a roll to hit, which would be needed regardless of the target or how the models are targeted (as it does not use a template, the rules for which are clearly explained by the BRB and, as far as I know, the only BRB exceptions to the shooting to-hit).

2) The scope of the ability is severe enough (ID, instead of causing 1 wound like other shooting attacks) that it should be more difficult to kill a model using it. This is imo, and not RAW, but it does seem remarkably easy to kill a high powered unit using this ability fairly reliably.

On a side note, if this was a Yes or No question, it seems like it would be much better served as a poll instead of an open discussion.

jmurph wrote:Can we save the "Is Jaws Overpowered?" talk for another thread where it is relevant, please?

The question here is simple: Does JoWW require a hit roll? Any answers that are not a "yes" or "no" or explanation of same are off topic.

The OP seems to have taken a position and Brother Ramses and nosferatu1001 certainly have theirs ;-) Can't we all just get along?

Because otherwise, I forsee a lock....

I apologize for my part in that, I was only trying to refute the argument that it doesn't need a nerf "because it's horrible against anything other than Tyranids and Orks."

As for the "automatically hitting" vs "needs to hit", the power does not state that it automatically hits. There are plenty of psychic shooting attacks that do explicitly state that they automatically hit, so the fact this one doesn't speaks volumes. The only reason I can think of that would justify it hitting automatically, in the absence of the power explicitly stating that it does, is that JoTWW uses a pseudo-template that consist of a single narrow line. Something akin to a flamer template, stretched out to 24" and with almost no width. At least, that's what the wording of the power suggested to me.

So you have to ask yourself, is it a pseudo-template? Or a shooting attack that targets specific models in a straight line?

Personally, in terms of game balance in friendly games, I'd prefer it not hit automatically, in the spirit of making things more enjoyable for both parties. But in competitive play, I can see it going either way.

I've always seen it as a pseudo-template, so there's my position on it.

That said, I've never even used Jaws in a game, Living Lightning and Murderous Hurricane are so much better all-round.

Is there any PSA that says the exact words, does not roll to hit? It seems that people are intentionally trying to add a catch phrase that does not exist to a power, not just JotWW, that already tell you how to use it. A large tournament rules group, INAT, has looked at the all of the rules and has given their guidance on how the vague GW FAQ is used, and people still turn their noise at it. It is like watching that scene from 'Meet tht Fockers.' "You can't say bomb on an airplane."

There are psychic powers that "automatically hit".

merlin96 wrote:Is there any PSA that says the exact words, does not roll to hit?

Yes, most of the Tyranids PSAs.

there are also PSAs which use the flamer template.

thats an indirect way of saying it doesn't roll to hit.

Didn't know about the Tyranid ones, good to know. Here is another one, is there any other shooting attack, weapon, that says to draw a line to show the models that are effected? I'd call that an indirect way to say it does not roll to hit.

merlin96 wrote:Didn't know about the Tyranid ones, good to know. Here is another one, is there any other shooting attack, weapon, that says to draw a line to show the models that are effected? I'd call that an indirect way to say it does not roll to hit.

Eldar Vibro Cannon, which does require a roll to hit.

Again, ask your T.O. for a concise answer. People are still arguing over it, and far better it be cleared up before the tournament then during the final game when it makes a huge difference.

I agree with Fxeni. Regardless of which camp you are it's best to either ask your opponent in a friendly game and come to some sort of agreement or simply ask a T.O before the tournament starts.

And for the record I'm in the camp that believes it needs to roll to hit because nowhere in rules does it say JotWW doesn't roll to hit.

Can anyone please direct me to the rule that says that a codex exception to needing a roll to hit is labeled as, "automatically hits" or "no to hit roll needed"?

Don't bother, because you can't. It doesn't exist and it is biased RAI that some have set as the standard for a codex exception. Here is what the BRB tells you,

Page 50, Psykers

The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes.

That is it. No imaginary specific wording, no precisely worded exclusions. Just that the exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the Codexes.

Furthermore you are shown clear as day examples in the SW codex,

JotWW- codex exception
Living Lightning- no codex exception
Fury of the Wolf Spirits- both

Jaws doesn't give exemption from rolling to hit in any way shape or form.


the standard requirement from the main rule set is that all PSAs must roll to hit.

specific > general. that means the codex MUST give specific exemption from the main rules set for there to be no roll required.

Jaws does NOT give such an exemption in any way.

1.Psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit (unless otherwise specified).
2. JotWW is a psychic shooting attack
3. There is no exception in the SW codex that allows you to ignore 1.

It's pretty much that simple IMO. Drawing a line does not mean you don't have to roll to hit. Yes it is an exception to the way psychic shooting powers usually work (in that you don't have an AP value, you don't cause wounds, etc) but there is nothing in text that says you don't have to roll to hit.

Anyways, that's my contribution to the thread. Will leave it to others to form their own opinions.

So I know this isn't about Jaws but I think it is relevant to this particular discussion, Blood Lance says that you cast the power, roll 4d6, draw a line and everything in that line is hit.

Like Jaws where you draw a line and models are affected.

No as far as Blood Lance I see that in the paragraph discribing the power, how it is used and what not, that it says all units are hit, so does this mean they are hit by the power not requiring a to hit roll seeings how they are already hit, affected by the power?

BR - you keep stating an assertion (Jaws is an exception) but are still entirely unable to actually back that assertion up. In other words you're not advancing a valid argument.

We've never said that it MUST say "automatically hits", however it must say SOMETHING to exempt it rom needing to hit. Show that something, or concede.

INAT's latest rulings have been debatable at best.

JotWW is a PSA, PSA require a roll to hit according the the latest FAQ.
Is there even a debate here?

Nope, not really.