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I remember there was a thread awhile back about JotWW and the new FAQ, that since it is a psychic shooting attack, do you still need to roll for hit?
There were many arguements from both sides... I just want to know if its a YES or NO, and how TOs at major tournaments(NOVA, etc) are going to rule it.

Sorry posted this in the wrong section. MOD can you move it to YMDC?

From what I understand, it's still very much in contention... for my 2 cents, I'd say you don't have to roll to hit though.

You don't roll to hit, I don't believe that has ever been in contention? You do need a valid target though

completely RAW, it must roll to hit because it isn't given permission to Auto-hit and it doesn't use any mechanisims that cause auto-hits.


for the power that Jaws has against certain armies, its only fair for it to have to roll to hit.

damn still very inconclusive...

I wonder how TOs at Wargamescon ruled it?

Grey Templar wrote:completely RAW, it must roll to hit because it isn't given permission to Auto-hit and it doesn't use any mechanisms that cause auto-hits.


for the power that Jaws has against certain armies, its only fair for it to have to roll to hit.

By RAW, JotWW isn't a shooting attack at all. You never actually designate a target, but just draw a line from point A (your rune priest) to point B.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:completely RAW, it must roll to hit because it isn't given permission to Auto-hit and it doesn't use any mechanisms that cause auto-hits.


for the power that Jaws has against certain armies, its only fair for it to have to roll to hit.

By RAW, JotWW isn't a shooting attack at all. You never actually designate a target, but just draw a line from point A (your rune priest) to point B.

I belive it is defined as a PSA.

Double checking, you're right, it is defined as a PSA. However, I have seen that exact argument that it isn't because there's no specific target.

Seems as if the prevalent way to play it is that you roll to hit for the very first model (the "target"). If it hits, then any other valid model behind the first model in its path is also hit as well.

BTW, it's JotWW, not JaWWW...or are you talking about a completely different power?

jy2 wrote:Seems as if the prevalent way to play it is that you roll to hit for the very first model (the "target"). If it hits, then any other valid model behind the first model in its path is also hit as well.

BTW, it's JotWW, not JaWWW...or are you talking about a completely different power?

JaWWW=JaWs of the World Wolf, I spelled out the J, got rid of the o and t.... but if you prefered JotWW, I changed it.

The two lines of thought basically boil down to:

1) YES- Jaws is a PSA and is given no specific exemption from making a 'to-hit' roll

2) NO- Jaws specifically tells you how to resolve the power in the codex, which supercedes the basic PSA rules.

FWIW if your group uses the INAT FAQ, no roll is required.

Exemptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be found in the codexes.

Layman terms: If the codex tells you how to do something different then the normal rules for a psychic shooting attacking, you follow the codex.

So in this instance, follow the codex for determining how to employ Jaws of the World Wolf.

the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

Grey Templar wrote:the codex does not specifically say that Jaws doesn't need to hit.

therefore, it has to roll to hit as normal.


if Jaws used a template or a blast then it would use those rules, but as it is Jaws is a PSA and requires a roll to hit.

The codex exception is not required to say it does not need a to hit roll. If the codex exception gives a different way to employ the psychic shooting attack, you use that method of employing, i.e., place a line, etc, etc. You have no grounds that the codex exception must specifically tell you that the power hits automatically. The rule on page 50 tells you that the exceptions will be in the codexes, THAT IS IT.

Look at the general rule for psychic shooting attacks in checking range to target. The codex exception does not specifically tell you not to check range. So now you must check range to target for JotWW because it specifically does not tell you NOT to check range? No, the codex exception gives you a different method to employ the psychic shooting power.

Apply the same litmus test to the other general rules for psychic shooting attacks and codex exceptions. JotWW does not specifically tell you that you do NOT need to roll to wound. So you now you need a roll to wound? Blood Lance does not check to range and does not specifically tell you that you do NOT check to range. So now you need to check range for Blood Lance?

The standard for codex exceptions is not to specifically address each and every general rule exception, but just tell you to follow the damn rules as written for the exception.

The point is in contention. There's no reason to argue in every thread it comes up in except to say it's in contention.

Short answer: Ask your T.O. The topic is still very much in debate.

At Wargamescon EVERY Space Wolf player that I played rolled to hit with their Jaws. That seems to be how its played at major tournies (at least from my prospective).

Now I am totally biased since I hate the wolf codex, and am glad to see it not doing as well lately, but I say if its a big problem having to make the extra dice roll....feel free to take any of the other overpowered psychic abilities in your codex for your undercosted, up to 4 HQ choice.

Sorry...I just really hate listening to wolf players complain about ANYTHING.

BR - yet it does nto state you do not roll to hit. It gives no other method to use - so you still roll to hit.

"Instead of rolling to hit" "hits automatically" or other similar language would do. JotWW has neither.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - yet it does nto state you do not roll to hit. It gives no other method to use - so you still roll to hit.

"Instead of rolling to hit" "hits automatically" or other similar language would do. JotWW has neither.

Pretty much this. It rolls to hit for more or less the same reasons that Eldritch Storm scatters. What the rules imply but do not say is not written.

Being a SW player but only ever using Living Lightning and Tempest Wrath, what exactly is being proposed to roll to Hit against with Jaws?

The rule seems prety clear that anything the line touches is affected. That seems to be a pretty clear substitution for the general rule for a psychic shooting attack needing a roll to hit. Afterall a roll to hit represents an attack or shot hitting the target so when the rule specifically tells you that anything the line touches is affected and must take an initiative test, the enemy model has been hit by the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the other general rules that are not specifically mentioned in the rule for Jaws like Ramses mentions?

Pulled from another thread:

1. Check LOS and Pick target
2. Check range
3. Roll to hit
4. Roll wounds
5. Take saves
6. Remove casualties

If we need to have exact exclusions from the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, Jaws does not have specific exclusions for steps 1-4 above and therefore would never work.

However if we accept the rule as written as the exclusion to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks it works just fine;

Pyschic test is passed:

24" line is placed, first model it affects is considered target model and must be in LoS

This covers general rules 1 & 2.

Anything the line touches must take an initiative test.

This covers general rule 3.

Models failing the initiative test are removed from play with no type of save allowed.

This covers 4-6.

The INAT FAQ explicitly states that no roll to hit is required for JoWW. Adepticon will use this ruling. My local gaming group came to the same conclusion after a great deal of discussion.

So I assume Nova, BAO, Ard Boyz will follow INAT?

thats up to the individual TOs.


It is a GW run tournament so they might be limited to GWs FAQ.

non-GW locations will most likely use the INAT, but it isn't a sure thing.

wolvesoffenris wrote:The INAT FAQ explicitly states that no roll to hit is required for JoWW. Adepticon will use this ruling. My local gaming group came to the same conclusion after a great deal of discussion.

But GW FAQ state all PSA needs to roll to hit unles it states otherwise. INAT is not official GW FAQ.

No, but it probably the closest thing out there and deals with alot of issues that GW does not answer. Like the vague statements in GW FAQs concerning PSAs ;-)

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:At Wargamescon EVERY Space Wolf player that I played rolled to hit with their Jaws. That seems to be how its played at major tournies (at least from my prospective).

Now I am totally biased since I hate the wolf codex, and am glad to see it not doing as well lately, but I say if its a big problem having to make the extra dice roll....feel free to take any of the other overpowered psychic abilities in your codex for your undercosted, up to 4 HQ choice.

Sorry...I just really hate listening to wolf players complain about ANYTHING.

Not sure who ruled that way, or if it was a choice made by the wolf players, but WGC followed the INAT, and they weren't supposed to roll to hit. I was told not to roll for mine at the Narrative table.


@ SonsofVulkan: It really boils down to finding out if your TO will be using INAT, or the GW FAQ as interpreted with common sense, or with RAW tunnelvision that doesn't even take RAW into account.

Marthike wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:The INAT FAQ explicitly states that no roll to hit is required for JoWW. Adepticon will use this ruling. My local gaming group came to the same conclusion after a great deal of discussion.

But GW FAQ state all PSA needs to roll to hit unles it states otherwise. INAT is not official GW FAQ.

First of all, it does not say ALL psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit. Quote the FAq without adding your own words to it.

The FAQ is a general rule for psychic shooting attacks which if you read the actual rules on page 50 of the BRB it specifically tells you that exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are in the codexes.

Seriously people need to read the FAQ and the damn BRB.

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes

they are not adding anything in... maybe you should try reading...
i dont think you need to roll to hit, but i can see where people are coming from after reading this...

While I agree the point is somewhat moot, I do think that having to roll to hit the first targeted model brings JotWW down to earth somewhat. If Codex Space Wolves was a weak codex, lacking in decent options, then making things harder for the players of such armies would be unreasonable. As it is probably one of the more generous codices in terms of options available and pricing, I think enforcing a roll to hit is actually fair enough. I mean is it so crippling to a SW player?

Cmon guys JotW isnt that overpower... except against I3 or lower models. Let all just follow the INAT and no rolls to hit!