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nkelsch wrote:I am not convinced GW's current model is bad or failing, and I am not convinced it would be fincacially enhanced from a buisness point of view with electronic delivery.

I think electronic delivery and frequent updates to the electronic rules will make the game better. I think the game being better would help attract/keep more players.

As for the people who simply want free rules and Living rule books... You just don't want to pay for things and anything that moves away from you paying money you will support, even if it breaks great financial harm to GW.

I love how you are so skilled at intuiting the motivations of other posters. I want the free and living rules to make the game better and remove a barrier to entry, not because I don't want to pay. I bought the gamer's edition rulebook for 5th edition. I bought Black Reach just to get the mini rulebook because it's a thousand times handier than the big one. I bought two copies of the BA codex so I could chop one up to put in a binder and have the nice pristine one on my shelf (and trips to the loo). I am not averse to paying for the books personally.

I want the books to be free to makeup for the fact that the rules are spread over 16 codices, 1 rulebook, and some supplements. Rare is the player who has them all legally. Actually buying all of the rules for the game costs over $700 now. Does anybody do that?

I don't respect your opinion or business advice when it is motivated by that motivation.

I don't respect yours when it's based on ignorant assumptions.

Arschbombe wrote: *snip* ... the rules are spread over 16 codices, 1 rulebook, and some supplements. Rare is the player who has them all legally. Actually buying all of the rules for the game costs over $700 now.

Dear god, I didn't realise it was that bad. So now it costs $400-500ish to get a full 2K tournament army, and more then the (overpriced) army just to get the rules to know what your opponnents may have? This is fething ridiculous...

I halfway expect GW to start selling time cards you have to swipe to even enter their stores. It'd be less inane then the above stupidity they're engaging in

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not quite sure why you're talking about 'convenience'.

I'm talking about releasing the books, as is, via PDF release through their webstore. It's something that works for quite a few other companies, and it can work for GW.

If the idea is for PDF releases to be "convenient", then the entire book being reproduced(with fluff, artwork, etc) isn't necessary. You'd need the special rules, statlines, and maybe points costs I think.

You're confusing at a glance reference with convenience. Not everyone reading a codex on an ipad is going to be at a table. Sometimes ebooks are just a hell of a lot more convenient to travel with then a stack of embarrassing real books covered in manly men in purple armor (like on a plane or bus).


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Kanluwen wrote:

Pacific wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

I have been surprised by the number of people who own the Infinity rule book, despite the rules being free to download. I would say a fairly significant proportion.

The post should actually have read "Do you really think that people who were downloading .pdfs or torrenting them would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?".

Irrelevant. If they are pirating them then they also aren't purchasing actual copies, if they are then it's a total wash. Adding a digital distribution format is about increasing reach and customer option, not about stemming piracy. Your arguments against digital distribution are non sensical and logically full of holes.

Trasvi wrote:HBMC: I disagree with the idea of just using the full PDF. Most people would be viewing this kind of thing on a tablet, ereader or even smart phone, and (as someone who tries to read GW codices on my phone) the book format really doesn't translate well.

How exactly? We’ve all seen a number of different things on tablets, and there’s nothing special about GW’s specific format that wouldn’t translate across to a tablet. Double page spreads don’t work as well... but that’s a general problem with single-page view tablets and not GW’s. On phones with tiny screens, well yeah, a lot of things are difficult to read there, not just Codices. I really don’t see how anything GW does with its books is in any way different on a tablet or smart phone to any other type of publication.

There’s nothing stopping GW from publishing entire Codices via their web store other than infrastructure (the ability to supply and take money for these products) and a fear of new technology. Publishing entire Codices via their web store (and other places like DriveThruRPG.com) would increase their reach and customer base. The piracy concerns are minimal as people are already pirating scans of their books (up to and including entire Imperial Armour books), so how would this be any different?

And that reminds me – they should be doing this for Imperial Armour books as well.

Kanluwen wrote:[Prove to me that they're pirated. A great many works are public domain.

How about the Black Library novels? Are they public domain? Because they're available and a bit closer to the conversation than the Mark Twain novels you're referring to in an effort to avoid answering the real question. I'd love to prove you wrong but posting a link to pirate sites is forbidden on dakka (which I think you already know). They're not hard to find with a simple google search. GW could easily make more money this way selling stripped down versions with just the rules so as to differentiate them from the physical copies. It seems that they don't need it though as the company is "growing" per their financial statement and paying dividends (mainly to the people deciding whether to pay them). They apparently don't need more sales as they've spent all the money they need to grow per the same statement.

I recently bought a netbook and would prefer to bring it to the gamestore instead of all my rulebooks. Despite actually owning every book I actually use (like base rulebooks and supplements like cityfight as well as codices), I refuse to use an electronic book in a store simply because it would appear that I'm using pirated versions. If I weren't already unhappy with GW and not buying their products, I would be a customer who would buy both the phsyical and electronic versions of books I commonly use. Yet again, they prove that they simply don't want my money with their decisions.

To anyone who really doubts that most 40k books are already, illegally, available for torrent I suggest you simply do a quick google search. Warhammer Collection Torrent ought to set aside any doubts you may have about whether people are already downloading these thing from the web. Of course, I also strongly suggest avoiding actually trying to download any - some may be packed full of malware goodness, after all. Which is another reason why people may be willing to buy a clean PDF from GW rather than risking some bug from a torrent site...the cost of a new computer is probably more than you're going to save downloading all the books, albeit not by much.

Of course, that's assuming that GW price there stuff well. If the codexes and army books are still double digit prices then it won't be cheap enough to make a difference. My preference is always going to be hard copy - I'm not even fond of digitial DLC because I'm a Luddite at heart. I want PDF's purely as a cash saving measure, to read up on stuff without the cost of buying the full book or having to go download stuff. Others who have kindles and such can say better whether it's a good format for actual, in game, use - I've never tried it and likely won't for some time.

I don't think so. I prefer a book and I don't want to wait people to scroll through page to page intil they find what they want. Books are reasonable to scroll through and I also hate E-books screen.

I'd actually prefer minicodexes in the same vein as the Black Reach rulebook - so just the info needed to run the game so I didn't have to use my shiny version of the codex all the time..

Perhaps they would come with a Battleforce box.........

a Minicodex would be nice. Considering the theft rate at the Game Store I used to visit, I do not want my e-reader there.

Some of the vehement and downright mean responses to the very idea of pdf books put me in mind if this:

http://youtu.be/0la5DBtOVNI

I also like the idea of a mini-codex in a battleforce. That presumes that they change the battleforce contents enough so that you meet the minimum 2 troops, 1 HQ model, then you'd have a truly awesome starter set for new players.

rockerbikie wrote:I don't think so. I prefer a book and I don't want to wait people to scroll through page to page intil they find what they want.

That's why you do text searches in PDF's. They're very quick.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:I don't think so. I prefer a book and I don't want to wait people to scroll through page to page intil they find what they want.

That's why you do text searches in PDF's. They're very quick.

Or you use the Index/Table of Contents...

AvatarForm wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:I don't think so. I prefer a book and I don't want to wait people to scroll through page to page intil they find what they want.

That's why you do text searches in PDF's. They're very quick.

Or you use the Index/Table of Contents...

I don't see how that's much different than searching through a regular book except for exchanging the word "scroll" with "flip". A professionally done (and sold) PDF is easy to search and frankly a hell of alot quicker for someone new to the book to look through than a physical one. Even for people who are very familiar with a codex, you can just skip to the approximate page you want. If someone is painfully slow with searching a professionally done PDF, they'd also be slow searching a physical copy. Obviously this isn't true of the "i just iphone camera pic'ed the codex and uploaded it to a pirate pdf" ebooks.

I dont think a lot of people who hate digital books have seriously used well done PDFs. As others have said, the search capabilities or even simple bookmarking is faster than any human. Thats like saying you can search a dictionary faster than a search engine.. come on lets be realistic here

Yes, a poorly done PDF like most you see on the net arent that much faster and can actually be slower.

Either way, the opinion of the net is fairly irrelevant. Those who dont want to use digital mediums wont and will probably end up like Borders books.. those who do will learn how to make them a ton more efficient than a book can ever be

Personally Ill use whatever I find easiest and convenient. I cant carry around every codex in my pocket in book form.. but my droid x sure can

Kirasu wrote:
Personally Ill use whatever I find easiest and convenient. I cant carry around every codex in my pocket in book form.. but my droid x sure can

My Deathwatch co-gm goes that route (we alternate GMing missions). I bring most of the physical books while he brings ebooks on his laptop and even droid cellphone. It's nice to have a second copy at the table to keep the flow going during a game.

rockerbikie wrote:I don't think so. I prefer a book and I don't want to wait people to scroll through page to page intil they find what they want. Books are reasonable to scroll through and I also hate E-books screen.

Preferring the books is very understandable. I prefer to read books over a computer screen at times as well. However, having an indexed army book or rule book means you can search and that is A LOT more efficient than you thumbing through a book. Also, online distribution = more profit margin since the overhead cost is down. It also allows them to deliver updates to the rules, FAQs, and editing mistakes instantly over the Internet.

Like I said, we own two hard bound copies of the WHFB 8th edition set and I bought assault on black reach so I own the 40K book as well. However, I wasn't about to cut up and scan my own books (I don't even own a scanner) so I downloaded pirated versions of the rules to put on our laptops and iPads. When I go to a buddies house and we aren't sure what game we are going to play, I just bring my laptop. Every book I own is also digitally on it. The guys that take the time to run the scans through OCR software index them and I can search the ebooks. I want to search the exact wording of a rule, I search of it instead of thumbing around for it in the Index and then flipping to the page.

There is so much advantage for them and they don't have to stop selling the print versions. In fact, I would say if you buy the printed version, you should be able to also either get the ebook version for free, or a very small nominal fee. Like when I buy vinyl records these days, most of them come with a free digital download as well. This means I don't have to either 1) rip my own vinyl to my computer, or 2) download pirated music. I like to collect records so I have a ton. However, since I already own the record and I already paid for the GW books I don't feel bad downloading the pirated versions, after all GW already got my money once.

Kanluwen wrote:The post should actually have read "Do you really think that people who were downloading .pdfs or torrenting them would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?".

Let me try and rephrase my point, which I don't think you're getting: if even one person did, it would be a net gain for Games Workshop. Presumably they are already sending PDF's to the printer, so the cost to them is nearly nonexistent.

People who want to pirate are going to pirate. That can't be stopped and it shouldn't be tried - save all the money the video game industry spent wasted on useless DRM that only boned paying customers and never stopped pirates.

Right now, they have monetized zero percent of the digital codex market. Zero. Anything greater then zero would be an improvement.

And yes, I suppose it's possible people could buy a book and then give their code away to download their legal codex to a friend. Not only is that not a problem, it should be encouraged. Games Workshop is a miniature business. They want more people playing the game and buying models, FFS!
Right now they are being penny wise and pound foolish, and missing good opportunities to spread the HHHobby.

Ouze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The post should actually have read "Do you really think that people who were downloading .pdfs or torrenting them would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?".

Let me try and rephrase my point, which I don't think you're getting: if even one person did, it would be a net gain for Games Workshop. Presumably they are already sending PDF's to the printer, so the cost to them is nearly nonexistent.

People who want to pirate are going to pirate. That can't be stopped and it shouldn't be tried - save all the money the video game industry spent wasted on useless DRM that only boned paying customers and never stopped pirates.

Right now, they have monetized zero percent of the digital codex market. Zero. Anything greater then zero would be an improvement.

And yes, I suppose it's possible people could buy a book and then give their code away to download their legal codex to a friend. Not only is that not a problem, it should be encouraged. Games Workshop is a miniature business. They want more people playing the game and buying models, FFS!
Right now they are being penny wise and pound foolish, and missing good opportunities to spread the HHHobby.

I am willing to bet there is a lot more profit margin in the miniatures than there is the printed materials as well.

warboss wrote:My Deathwatch co-gm goes that route (we alternate GMing missions). I bring most of the physical books while he brings ebooks on his laptop and even droid cellphone. It's nice to have a second copy at the table to keep the flow going during a game.

We've taken to having a lap top open and ready at every session, and if we need to there's a further 3 iPads in the group, so finding stuff quickly ain't hard.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

warboss wrote:My Deathwatch co-gm goes that route (we alternate GMing missions). I bring most of the physical books while he brings ebooks on his laptop and even droid cellphone. It's nice to have a second copy at the table to keep the flow going during a game.

We've taken to having a lap top open and ready at every session, and if we need to there's a further 3 iPads in the group, so finding stuff quickly ain't hard.

We had the same set up.

Only problem was, it was 5 college guys with laptops/iPads. The game would often grind to a halt after a certain image, video, or webcomic was shared. Or when donuts were brought out.

rockerbikie wrote:I don't think so. I prefer a book and I don't want to wait people to scroll through page to page intil they find what they want. Books are reasonable to scroll through and I also hate E-books screen.

The main benefit is ease of access of information. Say you're at a tournament. There's a rule you know is there, your opponent doesn't believe you. You just cannot find it in the rulebook or codex no matter how hard you look. TO is called, he makes the call, and it goes badly for you, even though you were in the right.

Now, you have a tablet with the book. You hit search, enter the name of the rule or something to find it, hit enter, rule found. You were right, game goes along nicely.

infinite_array wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

warboss wrote:My Deathwatch co-gm goes that route (we alternate GMing missions). I bring most of the physical books while he brings ebooks on his laptop and even droid cellphone. It's nice to have a second copy at the table to keep the flow going during a game.

We've taken to having a lap top open and ready at every session, and if we need to there's a further 3 iPads in the group, so finding stuff quickly ain't hard.

We had the same set up.

Only problem was, it was 5 college guys with laptops/iPads. The game would often grind to a halt after a certain image, video, or webcomic was shared. Or when donuts were brought out.

I do this at my house. The simple solution? Turn off the wifi.

While the PDF's would be a great idea for GW a far as straight making money, another thing to consider is how it would influence GW's relationship with the independent stores. I understand that people are pirating a lot of rulebooks and GW could be making money off of virtual sales. I understand that if even one person buys an "e-rulebook" then the project is probably in black ink from that point on. But also for every person who buys a codex online instead of in the store (note: not talking about "instead of piracy" here, but this is if they were going to buy it anyway from a store) then the stores begin losing money at that point.

In general, the gamers would enjoy e-rulebooks and GW would make some immediate money, but would it be worth it for what it would do to the GW-independent store relationship?

Here's my take on it: You need to have a paper copy of your own rules.

Now, that being said, I also think that to stand any chance in tourneys, you need to have a working knowledge of everyone else's rules. I am not going to buy Codices for armies I don't play, but to gather intel on the enemy? I'd buy them all tomorrow if they were available in e-book format. I don't feel like I am undercutting Games Workshop, or my local game store. I would never have bought those books anyway, (and I could always have downloaded them illegally if I really wanted to). Games Workshop might as well be making some money off of me rather than the none they are currently getting.

Calvinus wrote:While the PDF's would be a great idea for GW a far as straight making money, another thing to consider is how it would influence GW's relationship with the independent stores. I understand that people are pirating a lot of rulebooks and GW could be making money off of virtual sales. I understand that if even one person buys an "e-rulebook" then the project is probably in black ink from that point on. But also for every person who buys a codex online instead of in the store (note: not talking about "instead of piracy" here, but this is if they were going to buy it anyway from a store) then the stores begin losing money at that point.

In general, the gamers would enjoy e-rulebooks and GW would make some immediate money, but would it be worth it for what it would do to the GW-independent store relationship?

Most GW stuff has gone to boxed sets anyway and blister packs are all but extinct. Most boxed sets are stocked at stores that resell GW but not really all that stocked. They have slowly been migrating to a mail order business. I can go to my local gaming shop, order a GW item and it shows up at the store in 2 days. Gaming stores usually sell more than just war gaming as well. They sell role playing games, dice, accessories, modeling equipment, green stuff, paints, they usually have a gaming room, sometimes with a private room for rent. Once you start playing games on the reg in their game room you get exposed to all sorts of other games, armies, models and so forth.

What is stopping customers from buying direct from GW now, not paying shipping on orders over what, $75, and getting it shipped right to your house so you don't even have to leave your home? The point is moot, and it sounds like the same old argument the publishing companies use to justify them not going digital.

infinite_array wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

warboss wrote:My Deathwatch co-gm goes that route (we alternate GMing missions). I bring most of the physical books while he brings ebooks on his laptop and even droid cellphone. It's nice to have a second copy at the table to keep the flow going during a game.

We've taken to having a lap top open and ready at every session, and if we need to there's a further 3 iPads in the group, so finding stuff quickly ain't hard.

We had the same set up.

Only problem was, it was 5 college guys with laptops/iPads. The game would often grind to a halt after a certain image, video, or webcomic was shared. Or when donuts were brought out.

Yeah, that's why I've avoided using my laptop at my RPG night except for character generation and similar. It definitely kills everyone's focus.


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Calvinus wrote:While the PDF's would be a great idea for GW a far as straight making money, another thing to consider is how it would influence GW's relationship with the independent stores. I understand that people are pirating a lot of rulebooks and GW could be making money off of virtual sales. I understand that if even one person buys an "e-rulebook" then the project is probably in black ink from that point on. But also for every person who buys a codex online instead of in the store (note: not talking about "instead of piracy" here, but this is if they were going to buy it anyway from a store) then the stores begin losing money at that point.

GW cares about relationships with independent stores?

Calvinus wrote:
In general, the gamers would enjoy e-rulebooks and GW would make some immediate money, but would it be worth it for what it would do to the GW-independent store relationship?

This it the company that curtailed internet sales, limited the available discount offered by retailers, told them who they could and could not ship to, and you're worried pdf's would damage their relationship?

Seriously?

If they're worried about piracy, sell it anyway. If you can't beat them, join them.

iTunes and Kindle are doing well, despite the Pirate Bay and other sources.

Having a legitimate source of rules will only add to the amount of e-books out there. If they can get some money out of it, it's got to be worth their time to set up some deal with Amazon or someone.

Balance wrote:
GW cares about relationships with independent stores?

Our two store owner Dakkites both sing their praises when it comes to physical support from GW for their stores. They seem to have a good image with store owners and a bad one with alot of gamers. When Mikhalia expanded his store, they gave him thousands of $$ worth of shelving. Of course, he just turned around and bought thousands in GW stock and will continue to fill those pegs with it so the compay will make their money back quickly but they did shell out for the initial outlay.

warboss wrote:

Balance wrote:
GW cares about relationships with independent stores?

Our two store owner Dakkites both sing their praises when it comes to physical support from GW for their stores. They seem to have a good image with store owners and a bad one with alot of gamers. When Mikhalia expanded his store, they game his thousands of $$ worth of shelving. Of course, he just turned around and bought thousands in GW stock and will continue to fill those pegs with it so the compay will make their money back quickly but they did shell out for the initial outlay.

I was joking a bit. it seems to vary widely by area. I have heard some store owners that consider GW predatory (mostly from the UK) as they used indie stores to determine where to site theirs, but I know a former local store had good and bad periods as the local GW sales rep went from one who was cool and tried to work with the stores one vents to one that just wanted to sit back and let orders roll in..