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I think it'd be great idea for gw to release them on some sort of digital medium. I myself am guilty of "pirating" a few that I already own the physical copy of. It comes down to convenience for me. If I'm on my lunch break at work and I'd like to look something in a codex, I'm not going to be lugging around physical copies them, but there's a good chance I'll have my Ipad/netbook with me. It's situations like these that digital copies would make sense.

Btw, first post!

@Kanluwen: Any and all. Yup, surprisingly there is a huge group willing to scan and edit the texts for redistribution. And no, not all of them are in e-reader format. Some are in word, some are in pdf. And almost all of them are convertible with 5 seconds of work with a freeware e-reader program called Calibre.

Examples of pirated works: Harry Potter, The Dresden Files. THE HORUS HERESY.

Seriously, you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

At all.

And as to me proving it to you, how do you suggest I do that? Do you want me to provide you with pirated work? Really?

A suggestion: Educate yourself instead and look at the hundreds of sites offering these books. No need to "buy", just look. It'll be an educational experience.

GW doesn't really understand how THE INTERBLAG works, so chances are they'll put out PDF's for a bit less of a price, then wonder why they're losing so much money.

kanluwen wrote:If they're putting out army books like the Orcs & Goblins/Tomb Kings books--you can bet your bottom they're not going to be doing any digital version that can interfere with sales of those books. Which of course leads to people pirating shoddy scans of the books, but it all comes down to the Pirate Justification Cycle. "They want me to pay HOW much? No, screw that! I'll pirate it instead!"--which then leads to tighter control on the legitimate copies and only hurts the people who actually purchase the items in question, not the pirates.

This isn't necessarily true. The pirating of music was going to destroy the entire industry more than a decade ago. Record companies decided to begin licensing their music and selling it digitally. Napster was purchased and turned into an online store, iTunes came about, and now digital downloads of music are big business for record companies. It's still easy to pirate music, but based on the success of digitally downloaded music, and the success of the proven black library digital sales, GW should consider selling their army books in such a way.

kanluwen wrote:He didn't give those examples, darkPrince010 did. And you should notice that "a great many works" is not the same as "any and all".
Reading comprehension is critical.

I'll ignore your cheap reading comprehension is critical statement. I understand that some people resort to insults when they feel like they have no real argument to present and I have come to expect that sort of thing from you based on other posts you've made in other threads. I'd like you to address this point. You said:

Prove to me that they're pirated. A great many works are public domain.

This was in relation to proditorcappela saying:

I love the way you speak in definites and provide zero back-up. My allegorical evidence says you're completely wrong. Check any torrent site and you'll see quite literally tens to hundreds of thousands of pirated novels.

And to make it more specific, were I of a mind I could with little to no effort grab every single thing ever published by the Black Library and run it on an e-reader. Heck, I've had friends offer on several occasions. Seriously, you have zero idea what you're talking about here.

How many pirated works are public domain? Where is this even coming from? Black Library books are certainly not public domain. With very little effort you can find an available download for almost any book, including those in the BL.

proditorcappela wrote:@Kanluwen: Any and all. Yup, surprisingly there is a huge group willing to scan and edit the texts for redistribution. And no, not all of them are in e-reader format. Some are in word, some are in pdf. And almost all of them are convertible with 5 seconds of work with a freeware e-reader program called Calibre.

Examples of pirated works: Harry Potter, The Dresden Files. THE HORUS HERESY.

And as I said, ARE THEY THE ACTUAL WORKS. Please fething read if you're going to pick fights.

Seriously, you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

At all.
And as to me proving it to you, how do you suggest I do that? Do you want me to provide you with pirated work? Really?

I want you to prove to me that every single iteration of what you're claiming is actually what you're claiming it is. I have acquaintances who go out of their way to get everything "free", and I end up being the one puzzling out what specific file was a virus uploaded by some spanker who was trying to start a botnet.

A suggestion: Educate yourself instead and look at the hundreds of sites offering these books. No need to "buy", just look. It'll be an educational experience.

I'd rather not educate myself with an enterprise that I feel is full of scumsucking gits. Thanks.

There's already PDF copies available. The incentive, in my mind, to a publisher to do PDFs is to reclaim some of 'losses' by providing a hopefully 'better' product at a reasonable price point.

Publishers can provide better value in several ways: better-made PDFs, features like hyperlinks, reduced file sizes, as well as updates.

The basic idea of online publishing is that infringement is going to happen, so provide an alternative that has a reasonable cost. You won't satisfy anyone or kill infringement, but you can reduce it.

augustus5 wrote:

kanluwen wrote:If they're putting out army books like the Orcs & Goblins/Tomb Kings books--you can bet your bottom they're not going to be doing any digital version that can interfere with sales of those books. Which of course leads to people pirating shoddy scans of the books, but it all comes down to the Pirate Justification Cycle. "They want me to pay HOW much? No, screw that! I'll pirate it instead!"--which then leads to tighter control on the legitimate copies and only hurts the people who actually purchase the items in question, not the pirates.

This isn't necessarily true. The pirating of music was going to destroy the entire industry more than a decade ago. Record companies decided to begin licensing their music and selling it digitally. Napster was purchased and turned into an online store, iTunes came about, and now digital downloads of music are big business for record companies. It's still easy to pirate music, but based on the success of digitally downloaded music, and the success of the proven black library digital sales, GW should consider selling their army books in such a way.

And as I keep bloody saying but it's apparently not clicking--a novel is not the same as an army book. You do not "read" through an army book like you do a novel, you are constantly referring to various parts.

kanluwen wrote:He didn't give those examples, darkPrince010 did. And you should notice that "a great many works" is not the same as "any and all".
Reading comprehension is critical.

I'll ignore your cheap reading comprehension is critical statement. I understand that some people resort to insults when they feel like they have no real argument to present and I have come to expect that sort of thing from you based on other posts you've made in other threads.

And I'll ignore your cheap shot at insisting that I have no argument to present. Your statement was that the poster I replied to "gave an example". He did not. Someone else did.
"A great many works" is not the same as "any and all". I can find legitimate, public domain works available online. Films like Romero's original "Night of the Living Dead", for example, is public domain...because the title slide and copyright information was not present in the theatrical distribution.

I'd like you to address this point. You said:

Prove to me that they're pirated. A great many works are public domain.

This was in relation to proditorcappela saying:

I love the way you speak in definites and provide zero back-up. My allegorical evidence says you're completely wrong. Check any torrent site and you'll see quite literally tens to hundreds of thousands of pirated novels.

And to make it more specific, were I of a mind I could with little to no effort grab every single thing ever published by the Black Library and run it on an e-reader. Heck, I've had friends offer on several occasions. Seriously, you have zero idea what you're talking about here.

How many pirated works are public domain? Where is this even coming from? Black Library books are certainly not public domain. With very little effort you can find an available download for almost any book, including those in the BL.

Yeah, if he can't be bothered to trawl through and find out if each and every iteration of a published work available online is actually the published work and not just a trojan with some promo material, then I can't be bothered to dig through and find the information you want.

By the by?
"The Odyssey", in its original Latin publication, is public domain.
The translations, however, are not.

If GW was smart they would release digital codices for half the price (due to not having to print and ship or stock them ).. They would sell A LOT more and not have to pay any overhead

Seriously dont expect them to do that. I have PDFs for virtually every GW book made and until they sell me a digital copy that doesnt suck then that'll be how I store them.

PS - I probably own more FW and codexs than most so spare me the ethical harping (Also I dont care) :p

Kanluwen wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Neither you nor GW should care about people's crummy codex downloads, but that doesn't change the fact that GW is missing out on potential revenue by refusing to recognize that so many people no longer purchase hard copies of books of any kind.

Either way pirates will still pirate, and not all pirate PDFs are crummy, most are really well done by the way.

Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

Yes

GW could release a slimed-down codex as an ebook, containing just the list and the rules, leaving all the nice gamer-porn for the real book. The ebook could be pretty cheap and would fill a different role from the real book. People could then have access to the rules on their ipads/smartphones. If you can't see the value in releasing something like this, then you're a relic. We live in a digital society, GW should move with the times. Releasing BL books as ebooks is a nice first step.

I believe that most people in my group would buy both books for the armies they play/are most interested in, and would buy only the ebook for other armies. Pretty much how it is now, people own many of the books and have them and all the others on their ipad, except now people are forced to piracy because of the lack of other options. Releasing codexes digitally would probably lessen piracy as long as the price was kept down.

guess who again... wrote:And I'll ignore your cheap shot at insisting that I have no argument to present. Your statement was that the poster I replied to "gave an example". He did not. Someone else did.
"A great many works" is not the same as "any and all". I can find legitimate, public domain works available online. Films like Romero's original "Night of the Living Dead", for example, is public domain...because the title slide and copyright information was not present in the theatrical distribution.

Of course you can find many public domain works online for download. What does that have to do with the fact that you can also find almost any non-public domain work online for pirated download as well?

It would be great and all, but I like having a library of armybooks, and all it takes is one bloke to pass around the pdf he just bought.

Well atleast they made a sale from 1 bloke instead of 0

Kirasu wrote:Well atleast they made a sale from 1 bloke instead of 0

Where do you think the army books that get scanned in come from?

Oh I know where they come from

Kanluwen wrote:
I have acquaintances who go out of their way to get everything "free", and I end up being the one puzzling out what specific file was a virus uploaded by some spanker who was trying to start a botnet.

They're doing it wrong then, ESPECIALLY if they're going out of their way.

A Black Ram wrote:It would be great and all, but I like having a library of armybooks, and all it takes is one bloke to pass around the pdf he just bought.

Invalid argument. There are already plenty of blokes passing around pdfs.

The segment that downloads pirate pdfs won't grow much. They are already available if you want them. If anything, some people who download pirate copies, like myself, would instead purchase them. I don't download them because I'm cheap, but because I like the convenience of having a digital copy. I don't want to have stacks of game books in my house. I don't buy paper books of any kind any more.

That always gets said, but then when push comes to shove nobody does it.

I love a thread of a bunch of people who steal codex books anyways saying, "Come on GW, make electronic versions you old fuddyduddies... it won't hurt your sales at all! Who knows? I might even pay for what I steal! (not really)"

I don't think I'd care for a digital format because I don't care for using digital readers. The codex I have doesn't heat up and I don't have to worry about the battery running down. And if the thing fell in the tub or whatever I wouldn't lose every book I've ever bought in my life.

But that's just me.

What would be REALLY hot would be if they sold digital content that automatically updated itself when new rules/errata became available. And I could see how players would enjoy having to carry less to the gamestore. It just isn't a big issue for me to carry my codex and pocket-sized rulebook. But sure, if you want all your rules for multiple systems and all your dexes/army books in one place, that would be nice. Also, my bookcase is groaning under the weight of my GW/WD collection. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad to consolodate it all into one PADD.

Kanluwen wrote:

proditorcappela wrote:@Kanluwen: Any and all. Yup, surprisingly there is a huge group willing to scan and edit the texts for redistribution. And no, not all of them are in e-reader format. Some are in word, some are in pdf. And almost all of them are convertible with 5 seconds of work with a freeware e-reader program called Calibre.

Examples of pirated works: Harry Potter, The Dresden Files. THE HORUS HERESY.

And as I said, ARE THEY THE ACTUAL WORKS. Please fething read if you're going to pick fights.

Seriously, you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

At all.
And as to me proving it to you, how do you suggest I do that? Do you want me to provide you with pirated work? Really?

I want you to prove to me that every single iteration of what you're claiming is actually what you're claiming it is. I have acquaintances who go out of their way to get everything "free", and I end up being the one puzzling out what specific file was a virus uploaded by some spanker who was trying to start a botnet.

A suggestion: Educate yourself instead and look at the hundreds of sites offering these books. No need to "buy", just look. It'll be an educational experience.

I'd rather not educate myself with an enterprise that I feel is full of scumsucking gits. Thanks.

Wow, ad hominem attacks.

Okay, point one, and I'll respond as I was responded to: Of course they are the actual you fething mouthbreathing slack-wit (Did I get the tone right?) You asked, I answered. Why in the name of all that's holy would I bother mentioning stuff that was not genuine? Maybe you should take your own advice and read for comprehension.

I'm going to reiterate: You have no idea what you're talking about. Not a clue. But feel free to yell and insult as it seems to be only thing you recognize as debate.

Further educational advice: Look up "Straw man", "Ad Hominem".

Back to everyone else: I'd love to have electronic version of the codexes because then I'd actually have the codexes. I've already stated I like the IP and I beleive you should support something you like so they, ya know, make more of it. But stating that the ONLY reason to not make pdf's or e-books would be to stem the waves of lost revue...

Prove it.

Get me some neutral figures on lost revenue due to the existance of pdf's and e-books. The RIAA is not neutral on pirating, neither is piratebay. Find something neutral that talks about how it's piracy and not e-media that is killing printed media. Find me something that details how every record label and film distributor went out of business by changing and adapting to digital media, and were thus so easy to pirate that they lost all of their income.

I already know you can't.

Not everyone who wants a digital format is looking for an easier way to pirate. I can hold 3500 books on my kindle, so why the hell would I want to actually carry any when I could have it on there? They digital format is also usually cheaper due to the lowered production costs which makes it attractive. iTunes did the same thing wiht the 99 cent song. This is simple stuff and you have years of examples on how to do it right.

Some people don't like to look at real world example...

A Black Ram wrote:It would be great and all, but I like having a library of armybooks, and all it takes is one bloke to pass around the pdf he just bought.

tbh, me too, but i would probably by a lot of them in a PDF/eBook format ... in addition to the actual books.

nkelsch wrote:I love a thread of a bunch of people who steal codex books anyways saying, "Come on GW, make electronic versions you old fuddyduddies... it won't hurt your sales at all! Who knows? I might even pay for what I steal! (not really)"

I could care less if GW decides to make digital copy or not. As I've mentioned before, if they did, I would purchase them. Since they do not, I choose to download someone else's scanned copy. Either way I'm not carrying around a bunch of books to the FLGS every week, and only purchase hard copy books for the armies I choose to play at tourneys.

FWIW. I hope they do make modified versions available for iPhones. In a choice between not having any reference for my opponent's codices, or paying $3 for a very simple version, I'd buy them for reference.

I have no interest in buying my opponent's codices in paper form because I'm not planning on carrying them to games anyways.

I have a Kindle. I just got it last week, and I will say it's convenient. I've got 4 books on there right now(a piece on the V-22 Osprey, Osprey Modeling book on scale armour that I wanted to pick up since it was so much cheaper[which was a HUGE mistake since it's black and white, and the pictures that are stage by stage are supposed to be in color], and two Old Republic novels), but I cannot say I would enjoy army books on there for anything outside of convenience.

However, like I said earlier, I don't see GW going to army books on eBooks or .PDF simply because people want it for convenience. They want their army books to be gorgeous pieces that draw people's eye in, not a huge chunk of words all over the place.

Kanluwen wrote:*Snipped*
However, like I said earlier, I don't see GW going to army books on eBooks or .PDF simply because people want it for convenience. They want their army books to be gorgeous pieces that draw people's eye in, not a huge chunk of words all over the place.

I can see that, and I think there's absolutely a place for that product.

But consider this...

You make a stripped down "army list" for lack of a better term, all rules, no fluff. Sell it at 15 bucks a pop and make it e-reader friendly. I can almost guaranteee that you'd have a ton downloading it for the ease of use during play. And also, as someone else suggested, so that you could see lists you don't collect.

Now why?

To sell more minis. 15 bucks is a good price point to suck people in to the game itself with a cool list and some neat rules. Even with the codex being a prestige piece for GW, they make the overwhelming share of their money when they sell minis, yes? So make it easier to buy in to the rules and it becmoes more attratcive to buy the armies.

I think it could be a great tool for them if they went with both a pdf and a e-reader version. (Maybe digitally sign the pdf so that if one does start making the rounds, you know who did it).

I would absolutely buy a pdf of a codex. I've been thinking recently of starting a blood angels force and was thinking literally just the other night how useful it would be to pop online and download a codex, instead of having to either go and physically buy one or wait for one to arrive by post. I'm going on holiday in a couple of days and so won't be able to get a copy of the codex for a couple of weeks. Had there been an online version, reasonably priced (I would have probably paid up to around £8-10ish) I would have bought it then and there and avoided the wait.

I might not be representative of the market as a whole however - I play the vast majority of games either at home or someone else's home, so no danger of someone walking off with my laptop etc. I'm also conscious of the fact that if I bought a pdf version, I may not then go and buy a hard copy. On the flip side though, I would probably buy more pdf codexes than I would hard copies.

Kirasu wrote:If GW was smart they would release digital codices for half the price (due to not having to print and ship or stock them ).. They would sell A LOT more and not have to pay any overhead

I just want to point something out. I work for a major publishing house and noticed people sugesting that the books might be cheeper than the paper counterparts. I'm afraid that this is not true. There is a very good reason for this. The unchangable cost of a book make up about 80-90% of the cost of a book. Content, editorial, admin etc. The rest is stuff is bits that can be lost. A book costs anywhere from 50p to £2 + to print (for basic softback books) depending on print quality, paper quality, colours etc. For GW i would guess it would be at the upper end of this, given the fact that they are low volume, high quality product with full colour pages. Distribution is around 5% for a very efficent publisher going up to 10%. given the low volumes but small distribution network i would guess around the middle for GW.

This gives about 20% of the cost reduction for electronic books. They do, however, have some extra costs. Most of which im not sure of, as it is not my area of the business. There is compatability testing, re type setting, and the like, each needing doing for every divice. Then, in the uk at least, books are vat free. Ebooks on the other hand have 20% VAT on them.

I just thought people would be interested in the facts about the costs of ebooks.

Paul wrote:I just thought people would be interested in the facts about the costs of ebooks.

Certainly am interested - I didn't realise the cost broke down that way. In that case, a pdf that cost close to hard-copy price is not something I'd be interested in.

@Paul: If they released a stripped down e-ink (No color, few pictures) version, would the costs still be as high? Becuase that might be the nail in the coffin right there.