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So, with the news that IPad sales of Black Library books has done well without setting fire to the physical copies of the stock and dancing on there grave, it raises a question - would GW be advised to sell PDF's of the Army Books and Codexes too?

Now, it wouldn't work brilliantly for your own forces - I'm not used to digital books much, but I can't imagine flipping through a PDF is that convenient - but to take a peek at other armies, or look at them to see if you want one? It might be an idea...especially for the obsessive among us like me, who prefers to at least have a copy of each book so I know what I'm getting into when I face another army (and read the fluff...if it isn't Matt Ward) so I'm not caught off guard/screwed by a TFG. £25 is a tad much, however. I'd not mind forking out, say, £$-5 ti get a proper PDF

I know there are many ways of doing this already, without having to pay, to acquire such things already - but the same's true of the Black Library books, and people seem to buying them all the same.

Of course, it would mean GW has to stop thinking of the Internet as the Darkest of All Foes and as something that, potentially, can net it some additional income. Which isn't too likely. But you never know, stranger things have happened..

I think the risk of easy piracy would outweight the benefit, in their eyes. Much like what turned out to be the case for Wizards of the Coast with their 4E D&D books. I think there's genuine potential for it to be a solid market for them, but I doubt they'll ever see it as a financially viable option.

There is already easy piracy of GW's books. Partially because they won't release them in PDF form. You don't have to look very hard to download a copy of every codex, rulebook, and forge world supplement. I'd happily pay for a PDF copy of GW's books if they offered them.

PDF's? Maybe.

E-books? Absolutely.

Sure, I like the art and it does add to the immersion in the setting, but would I rather pay, say 15 bucks for limited art, mostly text, no painted army section, and something that could fit on my kindle? In a heartbeat.

augustus5 wrote:There is already easy piracy of GW's books. Partially because they won't release them in PDF form. You don't have to look very hard to download a copy of every codex, rulebook, and forge world supplement. I'd happily pay for a PDF copy of GW's books if they offered them.

Yeah, it's true. Pretty much everything is easily pirated nowadays. I feel pity for people who still pay for movies and music. Arrgghhh.

Some people do prefer to pay for stuff, if the company is remotely deserving. Whether that describes GW is another matter, and most likely a personal preference.

But let's be realistic - within a month of release you can already get most Codexes on a torrent site. Even without releasing them as PDF's, they're going to be pirated. At worst GW makes some sales for whatever the cost of hosting/web shop will be and those who want to pirate the codex might get a cleaner PDF to download.

Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:I feel pity for people who still pay for movies and music. Arrgghhh.

Save your pity and just give your thanks. Without them you won't have anything worth downloading.

That's the thing - I won't. Not any more. £25 is just too much for me to justify paying for an army I don't pay. Honestly, I have trouble justifying it for Armies I do play...still haven't gotten the Grey Knights book, and I've been playing them for half a decade.

If someone is going to pirate the book, they'll pirate the book. As long as the scan is legible they won't care, but GW won't see a penny. If they sell the book, the guys who pirate may well get a better copy - but they'd not have paid regardless. On the other hand, GW will have at least made some money on selling it.

It's working for the Black Library stuff they're selling on IPads. They've not seen a large drop in sales for the real books, they've made money selling the books online and, yes, the Black Library books are available as torrents as well. It seems to be working. What makes the army books different?

Mastiff wrote:

Lt. Coldfire wrote:I feel pity for people who still pay for movies and music. Arrgghhh.

Save your pity and just give your thanks. Without them you won't have anything worth downloading.

True, but I'm sure those people who torrent movies end up selling their copy, so it doesn't cost them much. Just time and effort. We appreciate them.

W file sharing? No way. That's a huge hit to their income. Look at Paizo's Pathfinder items and then cross-reference how much of it is available for download. (Granted Pathfinder is based off of an OGL.)

-J.

You should have put up a poll

I think piracy will always exist in some form no matter what they do. I'd argue that it's pointless trying to fight it - whether an ebook or a PDF will produce more of it I don't know, but I do know most people would be willing to pay for high quality PDF documents - at a reduced rate to their print books of course. I still think most people who are into the GW hobby will buy a Codex/Army book, the majority of hobbyists are collectors after all. If they released army lists through PDF, that might be better than whole Codex books and might generate increased sales - people who know the game and lore could then easily dip into other armies, it might just get them to start an army they previously wouldn't have though to.

I'd argue a case for GW to open up an Archive - call it what you will. They could release all previous editions of games and OOP games via PDF format, people could subscribe to it for £2-3 a month and it could get updated with old White Dwraf articles and such - there's a bucket load of old Space Hulk campaigns and missions written etc they could re-release. Their lack of creativity into this kind of thing frustrates me (shrugs).

Again it boils down to GW's refusal to move with the times, when 3D printing becomes more accessible/evolved/cheaper it would make high quality counterfeiting possible - and it will happen - then we'll all travel to China to get our minis

Kanluwen wrote:Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Neither you nor GW should care about people's crummy codex downloads, but that doesn't change the fact that GW is missing out on potential revenue by refusing to recognize that so many people no longer purchase hard copies of books of any kind.

Either way pirates will still pirate, and not all pirate PDFs are crummy, most are really well done by the way.

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Neither you nor GW should care about people's crummy codex downloads, but that doesn't change the fact that GW is missing out on potential revenue by refusing to recognize that so many people no longer purchase hard copies of books of any kind.

Either way pirates will still pirate, and not all pirate PDFs are crummy, most are really well done by the way.

Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

Mastiff wrote:

Lt. Coldfire wrote:I feel pity for people who still pay for movies and music. Arrgghhh.

Save your pity and just give your thanks. Without them you won't have anything worth downloading.

True, but I'm sure those people who torrent movies end up selling their copy, so it doesn't cost them much. Just time and effort. We appreciate them.

If the bulk of folks felt this way, you wouldn't have movies to download - because movies cost money, which they pay for from sales. You wouldn't have quality books - they cost a lot of time to write, and the author usually wants paid. You won't get music either - most free music is bands trying to catch a record labels eye. Shockingly, while you may be unwilling to pay for stuff, a lot of people are unwilling to work for free as well.

Take anime, as an example - a lot of anime studios have closed shop recently. They're just not making money. Some of that is poor business choices, some of it's piracy. So anime makers are making stuff that's safe. The same old crap. Why risk experimenting when it's unlikely to earn them much money? More Copy and Paste martial arts anime, please.

Some folks prefer to pay, and support the things they love. Because if they don't they won't get it. And yes, some people will say, 'Well it doesn't matter - I wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it's costing them nothing' but that is, let's be fair, just an excuse. They could have saved up and bought it instead. They just want it for free.

Kanluwen wrote:
Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

I do.

Kanluwen wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Neither you nor GW should care about people's crummy codex downloads, but that doesn't change the fact that GW is missing out on potential revenue by refusing to recognize that so many people no longer purchase hard copies of books of any kind.

Either way pirates will still pirate, and not all pirate PDFs are crummy, most are really well done by the way.

Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

Yes. GW says so. At least for the Black Library books.

Kanluwen wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Neither you nor GW should care about people's crummy codex downloads, but that doesn't change the fact that GW is missing out on potential revenue by refusing to recognize that so many people no longer purchase hard copies of books of any kind.

Either way pirates will still pirate, and not all pirate PDFs are crummy, most are really well done by the way.

Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

I would, although I'd prefer PDF.

Jon Garrett wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Neither you nor GW should care about people's crummy codex downloads, but that doesn't change the fact that GW is missing out on potential revenue by refusing to recognize that so many people no longer purchase hard copies of books of any kind.

Either way pirates will still pirate, and not all pirate PDFs are crummy, most are really well done by the way.

Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

Yes. GW says so. At least for the Black Library books.

Which is dealing in novels. Novels in an ebook format can be utilized on laptops, tablets, some phones, etc. Things that many people take with them on long trips and keep secured during those trips or day to day life.

I can't think of many game shops where I'd feel comfortable taking something valuable like a laptop, tablet, or smart phone with me and leave unattended if I go to the bathroom or something like that. If individuals steal models from people's armies--yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see the others suddenly 'walk off'.

Jon Garrett wrote:

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

Mastiff wrote:

Lt. Coldfire wrote:I feel pity for people who still pay for movies and music. Arrgghhh.

Save your pity and just give your thanks. Without them you won't have anything worth downloading.

True, but I'm sure those people who torrent movies end up selling their copy, so it doesn't cost them much. Just time and effort. We appreciate them.

If the bulk of folks felt this way, you wouldn't have movies to download - because movies cost money, which they pay for from sales. You wouldn't have quality books - they cost a lot of time to write, and the author usually wants paid. You won't get music either - most free music is bands trying to catch a record labels eye. Shockingly, while you may be unwilling to pay for stuff, a lot of people are unwilling to work for free as well.

Take anime, as an example - a lot of anime studios have closed shop recently. They're just not making money. Some of that is poor business choices, some of it's piracy. So anime makers are making stuff that's safe. The same old crap. Why risk experimenting when it's unlikely to earn them much money? More Copy and Paste martial arts anime, please.

Some folks prefer to pay, and support the things they love. Because if they don't they won't get it. And yes, some people will say, 'Well it doesn't matter - I wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it's costing them nothing' but that is, let's be fair, just an excuse. They could have saved up and bought it instead. They just want it for free.

Any movie worth it's salt will more than pay for itself in theaters alone. I'm gonna say these people are doing quite alright if Brendan Fraiser is getting paid millions for a stupid movie like "Furry Vengeance". Often times I feel like I should be getting paid for some of the stupid crap that shows up in theaters.

Jon Garrett wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Neither you nor GW should care about people's crummy codex downloads, but that doesn't change the fact that GW is missing out on potential revenue by refusing to recognize that so many people no longer purchase hard copies of books of any kind.

Either way pirates will still pirate, and not all pirate PDFs are crummy, most are really well done by the way.

Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

Yes. GW says so. At least for the Black Library books.

Seriously, their own financial report talks about what an awesome thing it's been to have e-books for the Black Library, and that to their surprise, it hasn't majorly impacted real book sales.

So even GW seems to realize that this might make them even more money. Now to just convince them to make those cut down army lists for an e-reader.

proditorcappela wrote:

Seriously, their own financial report talks about what an awesome thing it's been to have e-books for the Black Library, and that to their surprise, it hasn't majorly impacted real book sales.

So even GW seems to realize that this might make them even more money. Now to just convince them to make those cut down army lists for an e-reader.

See my above statement. Novels are not necessarily the same thing as army books.

Army Books are big sellers. People don't "pirate" novels, by and large. They are not necessities to play 40k/FB.

Kanluwen wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Neither you nor GW should care about people's crummy codex downloads, but that doesn't change the fact that GW is missing out on potential revenue by refusing to recognize that so many people no longer purchase hard copies of books of any kind.

Either way pirates will still pirate, and not all pirate PDFs are crummy, most are really well done by the way.

Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

Yes. GW says so. At least for the Black Library books.

Which is dealing in novels. Novels in an ebook format can be utilized on laptops, tablets, some phones, etc. Things that many people take with them on long trips and keep secured during those trips or day to day life.

I can't think of many game shops where I'd feel comfortable taking something valuable like a laptop, tablet, or smart phone with me and leave unattended if I go to the bathroom or something like that. If individuals steal models from people's armies--yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see the others suddenly 'walk off'.

I bring my laptop with me to the FLGS every time I play. That way I can avoid bringing a full library worth of books. If I decide to play a Planetstike game with somebody I'm good, if there is a big apocalypse game forming I'm good, I can pull out the battle missions if I choose, or I can reference the rules for any of my opponent's armies as well as their FAQs. I will never go back to lugging around all the books or leaving rules I might potentially use at home.

As far as worrying about your laptop being stolen; where I play every week, there are plenty of people who know each other and will look out for each other's stuff. I can leave my army and laptop there and run to go pick up a pizza and I'm happy to watch out for other people's stuff if they need to take a break or run up the street somewhere.

If you are having issues with stuff being stolen where you play, perhaps you might consider playing elsewhere.

Kanluwen wrote:

proditorcappela wrote:

Seriously, their own financial report talks about what an awesome thing it's been to have e-books for the Black Library, and that to their surprise, it hasn't majorly impacted real book sales.

So even GW seems to realize that this might make them even more money. Now to just convince them to make those cut down army lists for an e-reader.

See my above statement. Novels are not necessarily the same thing as army books.

Army Books are big sellers. People don't "pirate" novels, by and large. They are not necessities to play 40k/FB.

I love the way you speak in definites and provide zero back-up. My allegorical evidence says you're completely wrong. Check any torrent site and you'll see quite literally tens to hundreds of thousands of pirated novels.

And to make it more specific, were I of a mind I could with little to no effort grab every single thing ever published by the Black Library and run it on an e-reader. Heck, I've had friends offer on several occasions. Seriously, you have zero idea what you're talking about here.

Now, since I like the IP, what I have instead is a bookshelf lined 2 deep, and 2 high with just 40k novels. Because I think you support what you like.

Which is why I'd like it if GW decided not to be a bunch of ignorant luddites and put out their books in an electronic format.

@Kanluwen: Well what about other "big seller" books, like the Harry Potter or Twilight series? People could download illegal pdfs of them, yet I'd bet if you talked to someone and asked if they read it, they probably read the hard, purchased copy instead of downloading it. While the army books are easier to pdf-itize due to their smaller size, I don't think their high popularity will decrease the number of sales due to piracy to any degree more than already is happening.
People who pirate will still pirate, regardless of format, but imo more people would buy a pdf than would steal said pdf. Plus, if GW pares down the content to pure crunch, people interested in the fluff still have to buy the books (still keeping that revenue stream open).

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

augustus5 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which is likely why they won't do it.

Why should they(or I, or anyone who buys the books) give a crap about the git who will only torrent the book having a crummy scan?

That's not my problem. Shell the money out for the book.

Neither you nor GW should care about people's crummy codex downloads, but that doesn't change the fact that GW is missing out on potential revenue by refusing to recognize that so many people no longer purchase hard copies of books of any kind.

Either way pirates will still pirate, and not all pirate PDFs are crummy, most are really well done by the way.

Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

Yes. GW says so. At least for the Black Library books.

Which is dealing in novels. Novels in an ebook format can be utilized on laptops, tablets, some phones, etc. Things that many people take with them on long trips and keep secured during those trips or day to day life.

I can't think of many game shops where I'd feel comfortable taking something valuable like a laptop, tablet, or smart phone with me and leave unattended if I go to the bathroom or something like that. If individuals steal models from people's armies--yeah, I wouldn't be surprised to see the others suddenly 'walk off'.

I bring my laptop with me to the FLGS every time I play. That way I can avoid bringing a full library worth of books. If I decide to play a Planetstike game with somebody I'm good, if there is a big apocalypse game forming I'm good, I can pull out the battle missions if I choose, or I can reference the rules for any of my opponent's armies as well as their FAQs. I will never go back to lugging around all the books or leaving rules I might potentially use at home.

As far as worrying about your laptop being stolen; where I play every week, there are plenty of people who know each other and will look out for each other's stuff. I can leave my army and laptop there and run to go pick up a pizza and I'm happy to watch out for other people's stuff if they need to take a break or run up the street somewhere.

If you are having issues with stuff being stolen where you play, perhaps you might consider playing elsewhere.

I'd suggest you read this very forum. Every few weeks, we get someone talking about how they were at a RTT and had X stolen, , right off the table or from their bag, when they stop paying attention for a few minutes.

Playing at RTTs is not the same as playing in your local venue. You do not know the people in question, by and large, and that makes people think they can get away with a lot more.

proditorcappela wrote:I love the way you speak in definites and provide zero back-up. My allegorical evidence says you're completely wrong. Check any torrent site and you'll see quite literally tens to hundreds of thousands of pirated novels.

Prove to me that they're pirated. A great many works are public domain.

And to make it more specific, were I of a mind I could with little to no effort grab every single thing ever published by the Black Library and run it on an e-reader. Heck, I've had friends offer on several occasions. Seriously, you have zero idea what you're talking about here.

I'm willing to say to you that "every single thing ever published by the Black Library" is not available in an e-reader compatible format. People might LIST it as "First and Only by Dan Abnett" when in reality it's a great big picture of their junk and a virus for your PC.

Now, since I like the IP, what I have instead is a bookshelf lined 2 deep, and 2 high with just 40k novels. Because I think you support what you like.

Good for you.

Which is why I'd like it if GW decided not to be a bunch of ignorant luddites and put out their books in an electronic format.

It would be nice, but I cannot see it happening for army books. Army Books are too much of a big deal for GW to go and do it. They account for a good deal of GW's sales(with many people buying army books for each faction, even if they're not going to play them if only so that they can see what their enemy might have) and they cost a lot for GW to produce.

I would purchase ebooks/PDFs, especially if they were updated when FAQs came out.

kanluwen wrote:I'd suggest you read this very forum. Every few weeks, we get someone talking about how they were at a RTT and had X stolen, , right off the table or from their bag, when they stop paying attention for a few minutes.

Playing at RTTs is not the same as playing in your local venue. You do not know the people in question, by and large, and that makes people think they can get away with a lot more.

I wouldn't bring my laptop to a tournament. There is no reason to need to bring all of the books to a tournament, because all you need is the rulebook, codex, and FAQ for you specific army. I also wouldn't leave any of my stuff unattended at a tournament, which will probably have a lot of people there playing that I don't know or play with on a regular basis, and the people I do know will be too busy at their own table for me to ask to watch my stuff. At my FLGS, it's a different story. I can and do bring a laptop, so I can have access to the entire library of rules and expansions, and I can trust people there that I know to keep an eye on my stuff if I step out for a break.

kanluwen wrote:Prove to me that they're pirated. A great many works are public domain.

I don't think the examples he gave, like Harry Potter or Twilight are public domain yet. Try again...

kanluwen wrote:It would be nice, but I cannot see it happening for army books. Army Books are too much of a big deal for GW to go and do it. They account for a good deal of GW's sales(with many people buying army books for each faction, even if they're not going to play them if only so that they can see what their enemy might have) and they cost a lot for GW to produce.

Perhaps YOU can't see it happening, but many others would disagree.

augustus5 wrote:

kanluwen wrote:Prove to me that they're pirated. A great many works are public domain.

I don't think the examples he gave, like Harry Potter or Twilight are public domain yet. Try again...

He didn't give those examples, darkPrince010 did. And you should notice that "a great many works" is not the same as "any and all".
Reading comprehension is critical.

kanluwen wrote:It would be nice, but I cannot see it happening for army books. Army Books are too much of a big deal for GW to go and do it. They account for a good deal of GW's sales(with many people buying army books for each faction, even if they're not going to play them if only so that they can see what their enemy might have) and they cost a lot for GW to produce.

Perhaps YOU can't see it happening, but many others would disagree.

Well good for them. I'm trying to look at this from GW's perspective, which as we all know is not "what's best for the customer".

If they're putting out army books like the Orcs & Goblins/Tomb Kings books--you can bet your bottom they're not going to be doing any digital version that can interfere with sales of those books. Which of course leads to people pirating shoddy scans of the books, but it all comes down to the Pirate Justification Cycle. "They want me to pay HOW much? No, screw that! I'll pirate it instead!"--which then leads to tighter control on the legitimate copies and only hurts the people who actually purchase the items in question, not the pirates.

I wouldn't have a use for an ebook version of the codices, personally. They are small enough that they fit in my computer bag when I travel and want to bring them along. I prefer novels in my Kindle. I flip back and forth too much when reading a codex for it to be useful on a Kindle.

A pdf might be more useful at home, but I'd still rather have the book in my hands. However, if I were traveling and wanted to check something that might be in another codex, I could see the value in a pdf version.

There would have a be a significant savings from the hard copy for me to purchase the pdf version instead of the hard copy.