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H.B.M.C. wrote:

The Kan wrote:They want their army books to be gorgeous pieces that draw people's eye in, not a huge chunk of words all over the place.

Ok, you're going to have to explain what you mean by this.

I'm just starting to use a Kindle that I got for my birthday so bear with me.

It seems to be absolutely terrible at anything that isn't a novel. If they did brief summations, I can see it working well in that format.

But I can't see them doing that. They like their artwork too much.

Ok... well... we have plenty of FFG 40K RPG PDF's (acronym overload!) and they look 100% exactly like the books - same artwork, page layouts, everything!

They needn't be done in 'kindle' or 'nook' format. PDF's is perfectly fine and readable by most things.

PDF's would be better, if they were to do them with the entire layout.

If they were going to do something for 'convenience', I could see a cutdown thing like the Summary page in the back of the army books now.

I'm not quite sure why you're talking about 'convenience'.

I'm talking about releasing the books, as is, via PDF release through their webstore. It's something that works for quite a few other companies, and it can work for GW.

I believe GW should release books as PDFs alongside their paper releases. If you're worried about your laptop being stolen, simple! Buy a paper copy rather than a PDF one.

One comparison I think is very interesting is with Battlefleet Gothic: GW already releases the rules as downloadable pdf. There are about 20 BFG players in my area and we all have purchased a hard copy of the book. About half of us have also paid a larger sum to get the hard copy of the OOP 'Armada' supplement off eBay. I think us wargamers tend to like the feeling of parchment under our thumbs...

I am finding myself increasingly frustrated reading through some of the current iterations of the rulebooks. The tyranids codex requires about 7 different pages of the 'nids codex to use, not mentioning additional pages in the core rulebook. I have heard from many places that this is to make the books more difficult to pirate, as you need to scan the entirety. However, this is actually making it much easier to use PDF's for me, as you can set up all kinds of cool bookmarks and hyperlinks that allow you to view the rules easily.

I believe that GW could make substantial profits from selling as PDFs. I believe they could quite possibly sell each book as 2 separate PDFs: The 'rules' and the 'fluff' books, so you buy them separately for $10, together for $18, or as paperback for $35 (AUD).

However, there are 2 drawbacks IMO to selling them as PDF:
1) GW's target audience is (supposedly) 10-18. In my experience, not many kids this age have a personal eReader or laptop, though this is increasing.
2) It will be much harder to tell who is pirating. These days, if someone turns up with a printed codex or a laptop, you know they've torrented it. If GW did release PDF's, you wouldn't know, and so this could theoretically actually increase the number of torrented books. This is IMO unlikely as people who are drawn to torrents are most likely doing it for cost/convenience factor, rather than out of a deep-seated need to steal, and increasing the availability of the books will decrease piracy.

2) It will be much harder to tell who is pirating. These days, if someone turns up with a printed codex or a laptop, you know they've torrented it. If GW did release PDF's, you wouldn't know, and so this could theoretically actually increase the number of torrented books. This is IMO unlikely as people who are drawn to torrents are most likely doing it for cost/convenience factor, rather than out of a deep-seated need to steal, and increasing the availability of the books will decrease piracy.

If somebody shows up with a pirated codex and $1,000 worth of GW models, is GW losing? I'm not trying to promote the theft of codexes, but those books are the least any of us spend on the hobby.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not quite sure why you're talking about 'convenience'.

I'm talking about releasing the books, as is, via PDF release through their webstore. It's something that works for quite a few other companies, and it can work for GW.

If the idea is for PDF releases to be "convenient", then the entire book being reproduced(with fluff, artwork, etc) isn't necessary. You'd need the special rules, statlines, and maybe points costs I think.

If they set it up so that you could have some kind of 'proof of purchase' redeemable code for your army book buy so you get it free, I can honestly say I'd likely buy into that. I like paper over files, because at least I know that people can't open and edit the book without having to go through alot of work.

Would someone with a PDF'd rule book be able to play in tournaments at all like the ARD Boys?

It's inconceivable to me that in 2011, they are not selling digital versions of Codexes.

I understand the argument is that "well, if they sell PDF's, people will just torrent them". That's already happening. As of recent, you can generally view codexes before they are even release. By not selling PDF's, they are only removing the first part of that equation (where customer's buy them) and the second part remains (the torrenting). In other words, the current startus quo is all piracy, no income. It's like refusing to bake cookies because your lazy sister will come over right after you bake them and eat a few, so you don't. Congratulations, you didn't get any cookies, and you sister used the cookie tube to make herself cookies and ate them all.

The intelligent way to do this would be to have a code inside each paper codex that can be redeemed for a PDF off GWS's site. You'd have to be registered for the site, just like you do now to buy things online from them, and you can download it as much as you need to, in either pdf or ebook format. They could actually sell cards for this in the store, at a discount, just like a phone card - scratch it off, get a code. It would be a whole new revenue stream!

Alazahr wrote:W file sharing? No way. That's a huge hit to their income. Look at Paizo's Pathfinder items and then cross-reference how much of it is available for download. (Granted Pathfinder is based off of an OGL.)

Since when has Pathfinder lost profits? They basically took every 3.5 and before D&D players under their wing after WotC stabbed them in the back. (granted though 4th aint as bad as they make it out to be.) And I buy hardback Pathfinder books and pdfs whenever I get the chance. (plus if I was ever in a fight that core rulebook could bludgeon a man to death and stop bullets it's so huge.) Matter of fact next to Warhammer and 40K, Pathfinder is my next favorite drug of choice.

Kanluwen wrote:If the idea is for PDF releases to be "convenient", then the entire book being reproduced(with fluff, artwork, etc) isn't necessary. You'd need the special rules, statlines, and maybe points costs I think.

If they set it up so that you could have some kind of 'proof of purchase' redeemable code for your army book buy so you get it free, I can honestly say I'd likely buy into that. I like paper over files, because at least I know that people can't open and edit the book without having to go through alot of work.

Why even bother with that? Releasing the PDF is far easier and requires even less effort on their part. There's no need to release a cut-down 'summary' version. They don't even have to make a version with links in it (as long as its text searchable it's fine). The only effort on their part would be putting the PDF distribution system into their webstore, and then having a server capable of handling the direct downloads.

Y'know, like all the other companies that acknowledge the internet and electricity and all those other modern things and are selling PDF's right this very minute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:The intelligent way to do this would be to have a code inside each paper codex that can be redeemed for a PDF off GWS's site. You'd have to be registered for the site, just like you do now to buy things online from them, and you can download it as much as you need to, in either pdf or ebook format. They could actually sell cards for this in the store, at a discount, just like a phone card - scratch it off, get a code. It would be a whole new revenue stream!

A complete overcomplication.

All they need to do is just sell the fething PDF. It's not difficult.

I was thinking that, in the "my account" section of the site, they could have a section called "my digital locker" or something where they are archived.

The reason for the code inside the paper book would be that you get the PDF free with the book. If you just wanted the digital version, they could sell that online cheaper, just like video games that are DD only are cheaper then boxed copies.

I do like the idea of having access to the books and codexes online somehow, but i agree that it would take a concerted effort on GW's part to make it work out well. What seems to me would work out well, though, would be outsourcing part of the work. If their network wouldn't handle online codex downloads, why not contract out to Drivethru RPG or, if they want to use an ebook format instead, Amazon (kindle) or Barnes & Noble (Nook)? We'd probably see the books closer to the $20-$25 range, but I don't think we'd actually get away with books much cheaper anyways. We the consumer would get online books in a format that's already been working out, and GW would be potentially selling to a market that they don't usually get their books out to normally.
Also, with someone else's finger in the pie, maybe GW'd finally get some QA into their books.

Ouze wrote:I was thinking that, in the "my account" section of the site, they could have a section called "my digital locker" or something where they are archived.

The reason for the code inside the paper book would be that you get the PDF free with the book. If you just wanted the digital version, they could sell that online cheaper, just like video games that are DD only are cheaper then boxed copies.

Ah, I see what you mean. Catalyst does something similar with its products, usually putting up three different options for pre-orders - Book only; Book & PDF; PDF Only.

^^ Agreed with the tri-format thing. However, there is the slight chance that someone buys the book+pdf combo then gives the pdf to a second person: meaning 2 people have legit copies but GW only gets money from one.
A little like i mentioned before, with regards to piracy: someone could should up with a PDF on a laptop and you have no way of knowing whether they gave GW money for it. This probably wouldn't sit well with GW's philosophy of their fortress wall/moat. However, one could easily point them towards the current ebook trade, or the current digital music trade, and say: cheap digital copies of products *reduce* overall piracy rather than enhance it.

HBMC: I disagree with the idea of just using the full PDF. Most people would be viewing this kind of thing on a tablet, ereader or even smart phone, and (as someone who tries to read GW codices on my phone) the book format really doesn't translate well.

i think it would be awesome if they did a cut down ebook that didnt have all the pics etc in it, just rules and fluff, so that ereaders like the kindle that dont cope brilliantly with pics could still use them well.

overall despite having a kindle i prefer to have the books in my hand in paper form the electronic form (i mostly use my kindle for text books)

Kanluwen wrote:I like paper over files, because at least I know that people can't open and edit the book without having to go through alot of work.

Are you seriously afraid that people would edit their pdf codex to cheat? You must have some absolutely horrible opponents

Just FYI: It would be quite a lot of work to edit a pdf codex too, you can't just pop it into word and type away

PDFs can be updated more easily then a print run.
If FAQs are integrated into new versions of the codex, I'd consider buying a new version each update (if big enough).

I like paper over files, because at least I know that people can't open and edit the book without having to go through alot of work.

Lol, I had someone say something like that in RL.. I laughed and laughed cause its probably the dumbest thing someone could do. Wow y ou're editing a copy of something that you can go 5 feet and verify (If youre at a store)

Paper is dead, long live digital. I've made my own Apocalypse PDF with every datasheet printed online, in WDs and all of the imperial armors also. Its very convenient

All of my PDFs have bookmarks, updated FAQs attached to them and organized in a reasonable manner.

In addition I print out my own smaller booklet versions of the codices.

Ive probably bought and painted more GW products than a VAST majority of people who play this game and I can tell you that just because someone downloads a codex doesnt mean GW has lost a sale

Would a non-tyranid player buy the tyranid codex? Probably not. The bigger question is, why arent rules free? Most other companies release rules for no cost. Granted you dont get all the fluff but you do get the rules

Either way, it doesnt impact the game at all so who cares if someone has a digital or printed out book. By law I am well within my rights to print out books i own, so any self righteous person can get off their high horse :p

That's why I prefer to be able to print my stuff out now.
If something happens, like getting snatched by some gakker, or my drink is spilled (Happened to one of my copied versions)
I don't really care.

Also taking notes on what works/doesn't work for each unit.

augustus5 wrote:

2) It will be much harder to tell who is pirating. These days, if someone turns up with a printed codex or a laptop, you know they've torrented it. If GW did release PDF's, you wouldn't know, and so this could theoretically actually increase the number of torrented books. This is IMO unlikely as people who are drawn to torrents are most likely doing it for cost/convenience factor, rather than out of a deep-seated need to steal, and increasing the availability of the books will decrease piracy.

If somebody shows up with a pirated codex and $1,000 worth of GW models, is GW losing? I'm not trying to promote the theft of codexes, but those books are the least any of us spend on the hobby.

Good point, the profit margin on the models is way higher than the books. In fact, I don't think mass printing has really gone down in costs over the years all that much. However, GW has definitely benefited from casting/modeling technology improving, and their switch to plastic kits has saved them tons on overhead versus pewter.

I own a laptop, but I also own an Imperial Guard, Tyranid, Space Wolves, Eldar, Lizardmen, and Ogre Kingdoms armies. So, I hate hauling around a bunch of books all the time, when I could easily have everything I need on one laptop.

My buddy brought over his iPad and we "obtained" an indexed copy of the BRB that was search-able. We wanted to see how it would work. Also, for the record, we purchased 2 copies of the hard bound BRB fantasy books. So GW got our money. We keep one in our game room, and the other one gets checked out by our friends to take home to read. It was really neat to be able to search for key words and pull it up, and then have the nice interface of the iPad itself. I have to admit, it was really slick. Plus given the really light weight of the iPad itself along with the amount of books it could hold, it seems like any table top gamer (be it war games, board games, role playing, etc) would want to take advantage of this technology. Who wants to flip through the book to clarify a rule when you can just search for it instead?

Ouze wrote:It's inconceivable to me that in 2011, they are not selling digital versions of Codexes.

couldn't have said it better. print is dead. you can already download all codexes, rule books, scenarios etc. from various torrent sites.

Ouze wrote:The intelligent way to do this would be to have a code inside each paper codex that can be redeemed for a PDF off GWS's site. You'd have to be registered for the site, just like you do now to buy things online from them, and you can download it as much as you need to, in either pdf or ebook format. They could actually sell cards for this in the store, at a discount, just like a phone card - scratch it off, get a code. It would be a whole new revenue stream!

this is exactly how they should do it, and the ability to purchase said code from the website. i'd wager there are many out there that would prefer to purchase a digital copy. they also need to keep attracting younger customers who develop in to lifetime gamers - current codex prices are pretty restricting in this regard.

Kanluwen wrote:
Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

I have been surprised by the number of people who own the Infinity rule book, despite the rules being free to download. I would say a fairly significant proportion.

So perhaps that is the best of both worlds - the books available in deluxe format in a book for those who like the traditional book, with a free download of a 'lite' version of the rules (minus most background and pictures) from the website, backed up with a wiki that instantly connects you with special rules/stats for anything that you come across.

In fact, I think it's a great way of doing things, and I think probably the best on the market in my experience.

Pacific wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

I have been surprised by the number of people who own the Infinity rule book, despite the rules being free to download. I would say a fairly significant proportion.

The post should actually have read "Do you really think that people who were downloading .pdfs or torrenting them would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?".

Kanluwen wrote:The post should actually have read "Do you really think that people who were downloading .pdfs or torrenting them would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?".

100% of those who choose to go the file-sharing route? Of course not.

10%? Possibly. Especially if the authorized PDF is smaller (as it's not a scan), better quality, has well-done sections and links, and is priced well.

Something to consider is that a percentage of the file-sharers won't pay, ever. However, the reason sin't that they're cheap, it's that they want the file for purposes of being able to say they have the file. I remember reading this about software piracy back in the 80s: A significant number of people copied software just so they could say they had it, not to use it* (and let's not talk about how rampant teacher's copying software they shouldn't have was...). PDFs for RPGs are much the same.

Anyway, trying to sell to people who will never buy is a waste of time. However, claiming 'losses' to that crowd is arguable as it could be said that they'd never buy anyway, so...

The useful percentage, in this case, is people who like the company enough to play the game, want eBooks for whatever reason, and have money. This group exists.


* Possibly amusing story: back in those days, there were a lot of disk-protection schemes of dubious value to prevent making a copy of a 5 1/4" floppy disk**. Otherwise the programs themselves would sue cumbersome look-ups like requiring the user look up a password from a large printed book or code wheel to get the program to run. Lots of clever people spent a lot of time cracking these schemes and would modify the disk contents so they'd have graphics and text proclaiming who did the cracking to remove the disk protection or password scheme. However, these crackers often were more interested in the cool coding puzzles (cracking the software) than the cracked programs, and wouldn't be aware if a crack destabilized the program in some weird way, so copied games might have bugs at certain spots, etc.

** This was kind of like a USB flash drive, but less reliable, held less than half a megabyte, and relied on a magnetically-coated piece of spinning plastic in a plastic sleeve. Things were weird back then, kids.

I still have X-Wing on floppy, I know what they are.

The only downside is I don't have the manual or a computer with a floppy drive, so it's kind of useless.

I may be naive in the ways of eBooks, but... aren't some formats pretty impossible to pirate? Aren't they keyed to your specific reader? And refuse to give you the content unless a server somewhere says that you own it?

Kanluwen wrote:I still have X-Wing on floppy, I know what they are.

The only downside is I don't have the manual or a computer with a floppy drive, so it's kind of useless.

I figured there's a few people here who aren't old enough to remember them. I'm glad they're gone, really. Way too high of a failure rate.

Solorg wrote:I may be naive in the ways of eBooks, but... aren't some formats pretty impossible to pirate? Aren't they keyed to your specific reader? And refuse to give you the content unless a server somewhere says that you own it?

Rule number 1 of software, nothing is impossible to pirate at all ever. There are many successful online digital media business models. Look at the itunes Music store, it makes a ton of money and people still pirate the same. The only difference is, when you can buy a song for $1 you may be more inclined to buy it rather than pirate it.

Look at Steam...I pretty much stopped pirating video games and buy everything on steam these days. Unless the game is going to suck but I want to try it.

Kanluwen wrote:

Pacific wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Do you really think that people would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?

I have been surprised by the number of people who own the Infinity rule book, despite the rules being free to download. I would say a fairly significant proportion.

The post should actually have read "Do you really think that people who were downloading .pdfs or torrenting them would buy the books if suddenly they were available in an eBook format?".

I would definitely purchase in either ebook or pdf format. The thousands people spend on their figures should give an indication that the wargaming community as a whole is willing to spend money on our hobby.