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Grey Templar wrote:Please, lets not derail the thread with more talk about the Bloodtide incident(which everyone is getting horribly wrong, bloodtide fluff gives a perfectly legitimate reason for blood wards for GKs)

The legitimacy of that bloodtide thing is irrelevant. What should truly enrage people is the fact that an author deliberately wrote that story while he could have written something different, like Sisters and Knights being allied instead for example. No, he simply did what pretty much every author seems to do: massacre sisters en masse to make their protagonists look awesome by contrast. Should we be thankful this time since the Sisters, beside being weak and easy to beat, are at least useful to something now?

Of course, no one likes to see his favourite faction being defeated, even less being humiliated or worse being literally slaughtered like cattle. While it wouldn't prevent internet arguments, I'm sure SoB players would have less reasons to complain about such things if their faction would be treated with more dignity in fluff and novels. In their own fluff, when the Sisters win it's often at great cost, which makes sense in a grimdark setting anyway. And it makes sense for SoB to remember their own losses since they are greatly inspired by saints and martyrs. But come on, this army is not just about martyrdom! Basic SoB fluff states that the faction is an elite army and an important part of the Imperium. Can we acknowledge that? Can we ask for a minimum of respect? At least from their own allies?

So yeah, stop trying to invalidate that bloodtide BS. The issue is that you paid good money for those figurines, you spent countless hours assembling and painting them, so you are entitled to feel good about your toy soldiers like every other GW clients do about theirs.

well, they arent the only ones getting slaughtered periodically, the only people in IoM that doesnt constantly get horribly massacred by their enemies or allies are Space Marines.
GW doesnt want to damage the image of their super-human posterboys, so regular human forces like IG and SoB would have to take it for the team most of the time.

Jackster wrote:well, they arent the only ones getting slaughtered periodically, the only people in IoM that doesnt constantly get horribly massacred by their enemies or allies are Space Marines.
GW doesnt want to damage the image of their super-human posterboys, so regular human forces like IG and SoB would have to take it for the team most of the time.

I'm aware the Guards die a lot, in fact more than anyone else, but the fact remains that the IG constantly win. Without the Guards there's no Imperium. It baffles me how ignorant some people can be when it comes to them, all this nonsense about flashlights and t-shirts, comparing the statistics of individual models to draw silly conclusions about the whole army.

Personally, I believe IG players have more reasons to be proud about their faction than SoB. They are better supported, have many great heroes, many tanks, many models, etc. I don't know how BL authors treat them generally, but they sure have more books.

My point is simply that SoB players have legitimate reasons to be unhappy, but if other armies are in a similar situation then their fans have as much reasons to voice their concerns. It's not a contest about who can whine the most.

I have to admit, as a player and fan of the Sisters, I have no problem with them getting slaughtered by the Grey Knights. It serves to stress the grimdark aspects of the setting, where even allies may turn upon one another where it serves their purpose or the "greater good" of the Imperium, and what it means to be an Astartes (which are not exactly buddy-types, despite their frequent depiction in various novel interpretations). We have similar instances where Sisters attack Marines - in fact, to stand ready for such operations seems to be on their list of official duties - the only difference being that they usually end up losing anyways (but that is another problem, see below).

The "only" part that did not sit well with me was some of the Sisters falling to Chaos. Completely unnecessary for the whole "sacrifice" deal and sort-of contradicting earlier fluff that stressed the Sororitas' incorruptability. Why that had to go in there, one can only guess.

Jackster wrote:well, they arent the only ones getting slaughtered periodically, the only people in IoM that doesnt constantly get horribly massacred by their enemies or allies are Space Marines.
GW doesnt want to damage the image of their super-human posterboys, so regular human forces like IG and SoB would have to take it for the team most of the time.

To be fair, the SoB aren't exactly "regular" forces. The major Orders you see 99% of the time come to about 25.000 warriors. Case in point: 3rd War of Armageddon -> 150 companies of Marines vs 10 companies of Sisters. The Orders Militant are not very important for the overall defence of the Imperium, they are just an important symbol for the Ecclesiarchy's might and a morale boost for other Imperial forces and citizens whilst occasionally leading the spearhead of a crusade or sending an elite strike force to dismantle the leadership of a powerful opponent or recover some important relic.

But of course you are spot-on regarding the posterboy role. They are GW's biggest seller and as such enjoy a certain inviolability when it comes to the grimdark consequences of war, instead winning hopeless battles with frightening regularity. There has been a time where this trend was not as strong, and there are differences between individual Chapters, but the current image is more or less the "invulnerable god of war".

All in all, my personal opinion is that the Imperial Guard is a premiere example of how an army should be portrayed in the fluff, balancing losses with victories and epic battles where stalwart prevalence had to be bought with many lives. The golden medium between invul Astartes and whipping girl Sisters.

Lynata wrote:
The "only" part that did not sit well with me was some of the Sisters falling to Chaos. Completely unnecessary for the whole "sacrifice" deal and sort-of contradicting earlier fluff that stressed the Sororitas' incorruptability. Why that had to go in there, one can only guess.

Considering that even the Grey Knights seemed like they might be vulnerable to the influence of the Bloodtide, I'd assume it was effectively some sort of mind-control.

On topic:Sisters of batlle are trained to human limits

of topic - NUNS WITH GUNS!

on topic - Stop your bitching about the Blood tide. I bet in a few years/months everyone will be complaining about SOB new rules and how their overpowered,Fluff is wrong

Only if the new codex is released. Noone will seriously complain the WD rule update (which isn't even a real codex) is overpowered unless they're just horrible players.

In many ways it's actually WORSE than before, and it wasn't exactly spectacular before.


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MrTau wrote:On topic:Sisters of batlle are trained to human limits

Sisters actually can exceed human limits through their style of martial arts, achieving feats of martial prowess which are (and I quote from C:WH here) "miraculous to the unschooled".

Taht's right.

Adepta Sororitas Kung Fu Is Better Than Your Kung Fu.

Lynata wrote:The "only" part that did not sit well with me was some of the Sisters falling to Chaos. Completely unnecessary for the whole "sacrifice" deal and sort-of contradicting earlier fluff that stressed the Sororitas' incorruptability. Why that had to go in there, one can only guess.

I would assume Ward did it because he thinks only the Grey Knights should be that pure and incorruptible. Though, even the legitimacy of that statement has been called into question with the codex.

The whole discussion on incorruptibility is kinda pointless anyway. After all multiple Primach's were corrupted and they were much closer to the Emperor in terms of power, will, and psychic defense than any human or astates could ever hope to be. A Grey Knight surely should have fallen by now, that is if the didn't die to a man in most daemonic incursions. Oh wait that's the old backstory. Now, we have Kaldor Draigo who we're canonically told is completely incorruptible, and they curbstop chaos at every encounter.

Sersi wrote:The whole discussion on incorruptibility is kinda pointless anyway. After all multiple Primach's were corrupted and they were much closer to the Emperor in terms of power, will, and psychic defense than any human or astates could ever hope to be. A Grey Knight surely should have fallen by now, that is if the didn't die to a man in most daemonic incursions. Oh wait that's the old backstory. Now, we have Kaldor Draigo who we're canonically told is completely incorruptible, and they curbstop chaos at every encounter.

While the Primarchs are powerful they have a whole different mindset and agenda than your average Sister of battle also the Primarchs were given a lot of power and freedom, where as the sisters not so much. This

lack of supervision would prove fatal.

Sersi wrote:Now, we have Kaldor Draigo who we're canonically told is completely incorruptible, and they curbstop chaos at every encounter.

Now we have Captain Titus as well....

You guys need to get back on topic.
Or face the Inquisition

Harriticus wrote:Power armor or not these chicks are dedicated to war and train far more physically than your average Guard, they'll be physically stronger then most Guardsmen or PDF. Probably some minor degree of bio-enhancement as well.

Okay I picked this quote randomly out of many posts like it, so to Harritcus don't think I'm singling you out.

Alright first off a lot of you are forgetting basic facts. For starters if a man and a woman are about the same size the man is going to most likely have a good bit more strength thanks to being full of testosterone. Secondly although SoB are trained from a young age (most from a young age anyway) they will be strong. Yes this is true. However you also forget this about Guardsmen. They are always training as well and males (being the main sex in the IG) gain muscle much faster than women. Not only do they gain muscle faster, but as an infantryman I can tell you that a soldier in his spare time works out a lot as well. Especially if they want to freaking live. And no doubt most Guardsmen would want to be stronger given the threats that they must face.

So the quoted statement that they would be stronger than your average Guardsman or PDF seems a bit ridiculous to me. As strong? Maybe, but not very likely. Even female soldiers/ marines now a days are not as strong as their male counter parts (usually, hence the different physical fitness requirements). HOWEVER, once given power armor I would imagine SoB being at about crazy work out Guardsman to Storm Trooper strength.

But what do I know?

You raise a good point - though it'd depend a lot on how long that regiment has been active. They usually get shipped to a warzone right after being drafted from some PDF, after all, and how much they trained at home (or if they did at all) is very circumstantial, depending on the planet in question, though I think it would be safe to say that no PDF trooper was training as hard for as long as the progena. Well, Catachans maybe!

Unfortunately, we do not know the average lifespan of a Guardsman, but even then there's too many variables all absent from 16 years of secluded Schola education: Nutritions and climate affecting the soldier's health, actual time devoted to a task supporting muscle growth (can't do push-ups when you're manning a pillbox in the midst of a war), duration of transit (during which soldiers would very likely do fitness exercises) ...

Unlike modern militaries, Guard regiments get raised to fight in a war, not because the Imperium needs a standing army. Certain exceptions (such as the Cadian home guard) aside, the only IG regiments who have a "peaceful" time and thus the chance for proper exercise are the ones who are in warp transit en route to another warzone, or the ones who were allowed to settle down on a newly conquered planet after decades of service (Roman-style!).

On the other hand, it's not like the Sisters - or any other Schola-candidates - would train their bodies all their life, right up from being a small child. For the Sororitas in particular there's also a lot of praying and studying involved.

Tl;dr: it's really hard to say.

AFAIK Sisters power armor does not increase their strength, it merely allows them to wear such heavy protection without significant noticeable encumberance.

Now, they're obviously well trained and exercised, so likely stronger and fitter than your average person, but probably not to the extent that it'd make any difference amongst other well trained troops, power armor or not.

Vaktathi wrote:AFAIK Sisters power armor does not increase their strength, it merely allows them to wear such heavy protection without significant noticeable encumberance.

Now, they're obviously well trained and exercised, so likely stronger and fitter than your average person, but probably not to the extent that it'd make any difference amongst other well trained troops, power armor or not.

All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it. Just not enough to the point that you're getting a 1-up on strength on a d6, where the human baseline is 3. You might not be able to bend steel girders while wearing power armor, but you could certainly snap someone's arm without any meaningful effort.

As for individual strength, at least under normal circumstances they're only human. They'll be psychically fit, for sure but not what you'd see beyond in most fit people. She isn't going to be even a world-class athlete, but she'd be beyond able to put your average person to shame.

This is of course under normal circumstances, even an ordinary human body can do extraordinary things on the occasion it's challenging the power o' d emprah. They also have access to special training and equipment the average person wouldn't, but that's not really a matter of raw physical power it's about ability.

Chongara wrote:All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it. Just not enough to the point that you're getting a 1-up on strength on a d6, where the human baseline is 3.

Yup. Case in point: effortlessly carrying and using a heavy bolter. The amount of people in the Imperial Guard who are able to pull this off is comparatively small, and they usually look like this guy

Chongara wrote:
All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it.

Which is primarily expressed as being to be able to carry incredible personal protection without walking around like frakenstein.

Just not enough to the point that you're getting a 1-up on strength on a d6, where the human baseline is 3.

There's plenty of stuff that gives units +1S for much less justification. If power armor isn't doing it, its probably safe to assume they aren't gaining any significant amount of strength

You might not be able to bend steel girders while wearing power armor, but you could certainly snap someone's arm without any meaningful effort.

I've yet to see in any sisters fluff evidence of such strength, either in any codex, WD article or BL book. That said, such a feat also isn't beyond a guardsmen with a solid rifle stock, and it doesn't mean they can dead lift 300lbs or the like.

Lynata wrote:

Chongara wrote:All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it. Just not enough to the point that you're getting a 1-up on strength on a d6, where the human baseline is 3.

Yup. Case in point: effortlessly carrying and using a heavy bolter. The amount of people in the Imperial Guard who are able to pull this off is comparatively small, and they usually look like this guy

Or any officer...

Vaktathi wrote:

Chongara wrote:
All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it.

Which is primarily expressed as being to be able to carry incredible personal protection without walking around like frakenstein.

They don't carry the weight of the armor, the armor carries it's own weight. The increased strength is on top of that.

I've yet to see in any sisters fluff evidence of such strength, either in any codex, WD article or BL book. That said, such a feat also isn't beyond a guardsmen with a solid rifle stock, and it doesn't mean they can dead lift 300lbs or the like.

Obviously I mean with their (power armored) hands. This wasn't a specific feat drawn from any source material, just an example that popped up to mind based on the level of strength enhancement. Other than every power armor in every fiction ever providing nontrivial strengtrh over even extremely well-muscled humans, I cite the Dark Heresy books. They clearly state that power armor provides a substantial bonus to strength, really only matched in the flesh by mutants.

iirc, Vanilla power armor is a +15 or 20(? can someone with the books actually check this?) bonus to strength. This is where the average person has a strength of about 30.

Chongara wrote:Other than every power armor in every fiction ever providing nontrivial strengtrh over even extremely well-muscled humans, I cite the Dark Heresy books. They clearly state that power armor provides a substantial bonus to strength, really only matched in the flesh by mutants.
iirc, Vanilla power armor is a +15 or 20(? can someone with the books actually check this?) bonus to strength. This is where the average person has a strength of about 30.

Light power armour gives +10, heavy power armour +20. Though personally, I wouldn't use DH as a source in a fluff discussion, seeing as it violates studio material on more than one occasion when it comes to equipment.

But fear not! There actually is a description in GW's own RPG still confirming it:
"Having an endo-skeletal array of actuators and muscle-like fibre bundles, power armour not only enables the wearer to be protected by heavy armour plating, but actually boosts their strength.
Power armour increases a character's Strength by a fifth (this has no effect on bionic arms)."
- Source: Inquisitor RPG

Lynata wrote:

Chongara wrote:Other than every power armor in every fiction ever providing nontrivial strengtrh over even extremely well-muscled humans, I cite the Dark Heresy books. They clearly state that power armor provides a substantial bonus to strength, really only matched in the flesh by mutants.
iirc, Vanilla power armor is a +15 or 20(? can someone with the books actually check this?) bonus to strength. This is where the average person has a strength of about 30.

Light power armour gives +10, heavy power armour +20. Though personally, I wouldn't use DH as a source in a fluff discussion, seeing as it violates studio material on more than one occasion when it comes to equipment.

But fear not! There actually is a description in GW's own RPG still confirming it:
"Having an endo-skeletal array of actuators and muscle-like fibre bundles, power armour not only enables the wearer to be protected by heavy armour plating, but actually boosts their strength.
Power armour increases a character's Strength by a fifth (this has no effect on bionic arms)."
- Source: Inquisitor RPG

Oh come on now. If we dismissed every single thing related to 40k that contradicted multiple other sources we'd be left with what? The title of the Franchise? Maybe.

Chongara wrote:Oh come on now. If we dismissed every single thing related to 40k that contradicted multiple other sources we'd be left with what? The title of the Franchise? Maybe.

How about the studio material?

I'm just saying that I don't see a point in using licensed material as proof when they are unreliable as a source and their authors are free to write what they want instead of having to stick to what GW established. I'm not advocating to disregard it entirely - I adopting things I deem fitting from licensed products myself - what I am saying is that you can't use it to "override" the opinion of someone else.
But we already had a thread about this, so we shouldn't derail this one. The question about power armour strength enhancement has been answered, anyways.

Nope, sorry. Even the studio material contradicts itself.

Indeed it does. There's been what, at least three iterations of the Horus Heresy now? You can say "retcon" sometimes, but other times old fluff simply isn't mentioned, is that retconned out? etc. Lynata's overly simplistic view on what is canon and what isn't doesn't really work in 40k.


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Vaktathi wrote:AFAIK Sisters power armor does not increase their strength, it merely allows them to wear such heavy protection without significant noticeable encumberance.

It increases their strength quite a bit. Very few normal humans could wield vehicle-grade heavy bolters by themselves-- Guard has to do it in a weapon team and has to set up to do it.

Keep in mind that the benefits from the strength enhancement is also in endurance as well, as power armor has far more endurance than any human body.

Unless there is some source that says that Sob armor does NOT increase their strength, what reason do we have to discard all of the evidence in favor of their increased strength?

SoB have increased strength. It is entirely illogical for them NOT to. They carry heavy bolters and multi meltas around like a Space Marine can. They have POWER ARMOR, which we know INCREASES STRENGTH.

Indeed.

And keep in mind, Space Marines wear power armor, but an SM outside of armor is still S4. So SM power armor has no in-game effect in tabletop other than protection-- but we know it, too, enhances strength.

Well, Sister of Battle power armour also apparently doesn't have the same degree of strength enhancement as Space Marine power armour does, going by the Witchhunters codex. Though the WD update may have changed that.

The str bonus given by PA is simply not enough to warrent in game stats.

I would also imagine that, IRL, PA would give you only a nominal strength boost. It might allow you to bench another 20 pounds or carry another 50. but the bulk of your exerted strength would still be your natural body as most of the armor's power is going towards moving the suit so you arn't slowed.

That is the primary purpose of power armor, so you can have supurb protection without being slowed. the minor strength bonus is a side benifit that really isn't important.

The sisters armor likely doesn't have as much muscle fiber bundles or servos/actuators as astartes PA, therefore, it allows them to carry and fire a heavy bolter but is slimmer and far more maneuverable than it's green giant counterpart, which is why it looks like eldar armor to a point.

S4 for a marine sans PA is equivalent to benching roughly 500lbs or more. From reading Salamander, sgt Ba'ken is seen in the gymnasia many times throughout the book for multiple hours with the heaviest weight in the room, which, I'll assume would have to be about 500.

Considering there is some European guy who can bench 500 for two reps and he isnt on steroids and, is in fact, human.