Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fair point, kind of forgot about that there

But I would agree in some aspects-- an Ork's combat skill is pure instinct and improvisation, it's not something trained into them (except for stormboyz obviously). A Space Marine's skill is trained into them, as well as inserted into their mind through hypnotherapy so it's also instinctual.

Thing is, an Ork's instinctual combat skill really is so great that, were they both outside of power armor, an Ork and the average Marine would have a pretty good sparring match. The power armor and superior weapon (chainsword instead of a basic choppa) as well as a Marine's inherent discipline and faster speed outside of an adrenaline rush on the side of the Ork rather makes the Marine capable of of beating many Orks through precise application of force, as you noted.

Brother Coa wrote:Nor it was ever proved that Chaos Gods have any true power, nor that C'Tan are all so powerful and all, or that Necrons are numberless, or that Tyranids have some kind of "main fleet" going toward the galaxy...

Most things in 40k are just rumors, so we must belive it blindly since we have no proff for any of it.

The second two aren't proven, and you won't find me claiming that either are true, not in the context you've given. The first two are proven true, very much so. When the Chaos Gods banded together, the Imperium was brought to its knees. When the C'tan warred, entire star systems disappeared.

Melissia wrote:Nobs are most assuredly stronger than Marines.

Yes, I know, video game, but look at the nobs in Space Marine-- they can utterly manhandle a 2nd company captain and, unless you play very skillfully, you will die very, very quickly to one. This is pretty accurate in the lore. Marines don't win against Nobs through raw strength, they win through skill, speed, and ingenuity.

Well, personally, I believe that a Boy is almost as strong as a Marine, whereas a Nob is stronger, but not enough to warrant the S5.

Fulgrim actually states that the average Ork is almost as physically powerful as a Marine, and mentions a Nob as being more-so.

That's where Furious Charge comes in, a mob of Boyz building up momentum, striding towards the enemy, when that mob hits the Marines, some Marines are going to get toppled. But in stand-up combat, the Marine is larger, quicker, and a bit stronger, so his blows will carry more force. The Boy is still tough to put down though, their dense bones and musculature along with lack of vitals meaning they can take much more than a human, in the fluff las-rounds need a head-shot to reliably bring down a Boy.

So yeah, Ork Boyz are strong, but not enough to warrant S4, whereas a Nob is, and is stronger than the Marine.

Are we talking physical strength or just plain strength as a warrior? They are most certainly skilled. I would think most can put up a decent match with a Marine in a sparring session. (if the Marine doesn't apply force behind his blows) For physical strength, I imagine they are in between Guardsman and Space Marine. That is assuming they're in PA. If not, I would think they have the strength of any healthy female who regularly exercises.

As for Orks, they rely on raw strength and (as stated by Melissia) the instinct for violence they were born with. Put in a sparring match with a Marine, I can see the Ork holding out for a ten or twenty seconds....maybe more. But your common Ork is not as knowledgable as a Space Marine. He doesn't rely on speed, only strength, growing up in Ork society, he has only learned that strength matters most, therefore he doesn't practice speed. He does not bother to locate organs, he only knows limbs. He does not monitor the way an enemy is moving, he just wants to bleed the target. He doesn't realize that bones hold someones body in a certain way, and that these can be manipulated to do harm. He doesn't know all this, but I'm willing to bet the Marine does.

as for why SoB would fight GKs:

SoB, as any force of the Imperium, could be manipulated into fighting the GKs like happened in the GK omnibus. It would be nearly impossable for GKs to be fooled, although it could happen.

SoB could also become corrupted.

Grey Templar wrote:as for why SoB would fight GKs:

SoB, as any force of the Imperium, could be manipulated into fighting the GKs like happened in the GK omnibus. It would be nearly impossable for GKs to be fooled, although it could happen.

SoB could also become corrupted.

So can non-purifier GK theoretically.

Void__Dragon wrote:When the Chaos Gods banded together, the Imperium was brought to its knees.

And again - they lost battle for the matterium. There is no real proof of their power except claims of Chaos worshipers. But that is just me claiming the power of Jesus to Muslim - it's no proof. True, they can do some pretty nasty things, but they are just beings hungry for power, not even true Gods.

Void__Dragon wrote:When the C'tan warred, entire star systems disappeared.

That is all part of Eldar legends, and they are known for their lies and betrayal - hard proof for a race with no sense of honor. Aside from legends and rumors that was never proven, and according to rumors from new codex C'Tan are not gods - they are slaves to Necrons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
SoB could also become corrupted.

You do know only 1 of them ever fall to Chaos, just one.
BL novel stuff is ... going against official fluff from time to time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jackster wrote:
So can non-purifier GK theoretically.

And for the there is no chance at all for this.

Brother Coa wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:When the Chaos Gods banded together, the Imperium was brought to its knees.

And again - they lost battle for the matterium. There is no real proof of their power except claims of Chaos worshipers. But that is just me claiming the power of Jesus to Muslim - it's no proof. True, they can do some pretty nasty things, but they are just beings hungry for power, not even true Gods.

That wasn't why they fought. They don't care about the Material universe, 99.9% of their attentions are concentrated on playing the Great Game. There's plenty of proof of their power. Their servants? Boosted purely by Daemonic energy, they're able to lay waste to entire armies. Their scheming nearly killed the Emperor and created the hell hole that is the Imperium today. The birth cries of the weakest nearly obliterated an entire race and created the Eye of Terror. There's a reason they're called Gods, and it's more than them jsut being symbolic and anonymous effigies. The Christian God is God to them, because they believe he is one, through his acts he has apparently proved this. It's no different with Chaos, we just KNOW they exist and are terribly powerful.

Void__Dragon wrote:When the C'tan warred, entire star systems disappeared.

That is all part of Eldar legends, and they are known for their lies and betrayal - hard proof for a race with no sense of honor. Aside from legends and rumors that was never proven, and according to rumors from new codex C'Tan are not gods - they are slaves to Necrons.

Which, until it comes around if it even does, is not true so therefore irrelevant. If Mat Ward does screw up the Necrons like so many people seem to believe already, then you can talk about it. Until them, C'tan are stupidly powerful beings capable of draining stars of energy. They boosted the Necrons to the point where they nearly destroyed the Old Ones.
All that aside, what point are you trying to make? That these beings aren't powerful? Or is it yet again another ridiculous fanboy argument about how none of this can be true because it's all legends from untrustworthy aliens? I find the latter to be mildly hypocritical. Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.

Grey Templar wrote:
SoB could also become corrupted.

You do know only 1 of them ever fall to Chaos, just one.
BL novel stuff is ... going against official fluff from time to time.

There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.

iproxtaco wrote:There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.

As yet, this has never been retconned by studio material:

"A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos."

The events in Codex: Grey Knights, as people are at pains to point out, were nothing to do with chaotic corruption and were, instead, viral in nature - which was why the Grey Knights themselves actively required protection from the effects.

Which is wrong on their part. It was Daemonic power sourced from an enraged Bloodthirster. Not viral, in the sense of a biological disease, it was Chaos corruption. Unless there's more to it of course.

Miriael Sabathiel fell to the lure of chaos, she 'fell' voluntarily. These Sisters were forcibly corrupted, not into servants or Chaos champions, but displayed effects of the taint, which was to attack in a mindless rage or to explode in a shower of gore.

iproxtaco wrote:
There's a reason they're called Gods, and it's more than them jsut being symbolic and anonymous effigies. The Christian God is God to them, because they believe he is one, through his acts he has apparently proved this. It's no different with Chaos, we just KNOW they exist and are terribly powerful.

My God beats your God?

Surely those chaos Gods wouldn't fictionally "exist" without a God creating Man to imagine these "Gods".

So NO, we just have to accept what the author makes these chaos "gods" in power and validity in 40k.
The deification of these creatures of the empyrean is questionable as their power is restricted to their own realm, the warp.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
There's a reason they're called Gods, and it's more than them jsut being symbolic and anonymous effigies. The Christian God is God to them, because they believe he is one, through his acts he has apparently proved this. It's no different with Chaos, we just KNOW they exist and are terribly powerful.

My God beats your God?

Surely those chaos Gods wouldn't fictionally "exist" without a God creating Man to imagine these "Gods".

So NO, we just have to accept what the author makes these chaos "gods" in power and validity in 40k.
The deification of these creatures of the empyrean is questionable as their power is restricted to their own realm, the warp.

Yes, that's definitely the line I was choosing there, my God beats your God.
No, not at all, you're either trolling or plain misinterpreting something that's quite plain and simple. I really hope though that you aren't implying that this has anything to do with real life.

iproxtaco wrote:It was Daemonic power

Ohhh boy - that's so off-topic I'm not touching it with a barge pole, and I'm going to hide before all the Grey Knight fanboys crawl out of the woodwork at the mere intimation that they actually need protection from Daemonic influence.

On off-topic, though, I don't see why people keep coming back to this - except, perhaps, mean-spiritedness. It really is, after all the gutting of Sisters canon in the new Codex, the only 'cool' thing left in their fluff - out of countless thousands of members over five thousand years, only one has ever willingly given themselves over to Chaos. I suppose people really do want to make sure our army can't have nice things - even if they have nothing whatsoever to do with tabletop game balance.

On topic, I could see an argument for them being less physically strong than a storm trooper outside of their power armour, moreso within it.

iproxtaco wrote:
Yes, that's definitely the line I was choosing there, my God beats your God.

I am bound to post no he don't, am I?

iproxtaco wrote:
I really hope though that you aren't implying that this has anything to do with real life.

No, I think your idea to apply real life is bad.
The pantheon your aiming at has nothing in common with the religion used in your example. So please either use a comparable belief system
or keep real life out of it. Would prefer 40k terms tough, maybe eldar or necron Gods, ork gods, etc.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Yes, that's definitely the line I was choosing there, my God beats your God.

I am bound to post no he don't, am I?

Meh.

iproxtaco wrote:
I really hope though that you aren't implying that this has anything to do with real life.

No, I think your idea to apply real life is bad.
The pantheon your aiming at has nothing in common with the religion used in your example. So please either use a comparable belief system
or keep real life out of it. Would prefer 40k terms tough, maybe eldar or necron Gods, ork gods, etc.

I'm not applying real life at all, bar a comparison. Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.

iproxtaco wrote:Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.

Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength.
End of discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.

Codex: Sisters of Battle 3'rd edition: ""A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."

End of discussion.

iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.

The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.

The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.

The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.

Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.

The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.

The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.

The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.

Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.

That's right. If people here can say: "Emperor don't have any power at all" then I can say "Chaos Gods or C'Tan don't have any power at all either". Since there is no proof of any of their power, just claims of their servants. And some rather "unususal abilities" of theirs ( Act's of Faith, Phase Shift, Warp Portals etc... ).

Listen to Coa, for I am the messiah of logic and science

People here seem to confuse Chaos with The Warp, as well, which is infuriating at times.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.

Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength.
End of discussion.

So the Horus Heresy and the Eye of Terror and the power of their servants are all legends and hearsay? The defeat of the Old Ones too? The War in Heaven? They're all things we know happened as the reader. The Emperor created the Imperium, which is remarkable too, is that hearsay and legend?

iproxtaco wrote:
There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.

Codex: Sisters of Battle 3'rd edition: ""A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."

End of discussion.

Irrelevant to my quote as I'm not denying it happened at all. Nothing is official and everything is official. Games Workshop, you know, that company that controls the setting we're talking about, hasn't said officially that Black Library and other sources that aren't created by the Studio, are not canon. Until then, GW has no canon really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.

The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.

The Tau don't know a whole lot about Chaos, if they know anything at all.

The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.

The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.

Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).

Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.

I'm not sure what you mean. Sister's can achieve things through their faith, although it's arguable whether its the Emperor's intervention or not. They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.

That doesn't mean that they call them "chaos gods" or believe them to actually be gods, which I think is more the point.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.

Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength.
End of discussion.

So the Horus Heresy and the Eye of Terror and the power of their servants are all legends and hearsay? The defeat of the Old Ones too? The War in Heaven? They're all things we know happened as the reader. The Emperor created the Imperium, which is remarkable too, is that hearsay and legend?

iproxtaco wrote:
There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.

Codex: Sisters of Battle 3'rd edition: ""A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."

End of discussion.

Irrelevant to my quote as I'm not denying it happened at all. Nothing is official and everything is official. Games Workshop, you know, that company that controls the setting we're talking about, hasn't said officially that Black Library and other sources that aren't created by the Studio, are not canon. Until then, GW has no canon really.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.

The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.

The Tau don't know a whole lot about Chaos, if they know anything at all.

The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.

The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.

Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).

Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.

I'm not sure what you mean. Sister's can achieve things through their faith, although it's arguable whether its the Emperor's intervention or not. They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.

Underestimating your enemy would be worse

iproxtaco wrote:
Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).

Heresy?

You think its an achievement to start a heresy? There was more than one civil war of the course of 40 millenia.

Now, I see you admit it was the minions of these self proclaimed Gods that did the job and the Gods just watched them die.
Am I right its neccessary to delegate the work to "servants"? If so, any God able to influence both realms without reliance on willing servants or able to enter both realms is more of a "true" God than the chaos "Gods".

iproxtaco wrote:They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.

I'd say they wouldn't hold back if they could relief the galaxy of them. And we know "Gods" can die. ( at least, elven ones ).

Brother Coa wrote:Listen to Coa, for I am the messiah of logic and science

Depends...

Melissia wrote:That doesn't mean that they call them "chaos gods" or believe them to actually be gods, which I think is more the point.

Exactly.
A galaxy filled with life and some minority likes to adress their masters from the empyrean as Gods.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:

4oursword wrote:"Real" 40k: They wouldn't.
Ward-ty k: Anyone can fight anyone, Grey Knights can fly in their mystical baby harnesses and will kill anything because THE EMPRAH SEZ SO!!!

Isn't it implied that the forces of the imperium despite being allies sometimes have objectives that run contrary to each other. Sisters and Grey Knights could end up duking it out if both are after the same thing, one because they believe it to be a holy artifact of the church and the other thinking its a demon posses artifact. In a rational universe they should stop and talk it out, but in 40K where there is only war, superstition and misinformation rules supreme and orders are absolute, anything is possible.

4oursword wrote:
On topic: Stormtrooper strength.

Also, this.
Sisters are trained at the scholla Progenum along with commissars and storm troopers. They are thus trained as warriors since they are children while being put through the rigors of the scholla and indoctrinated into the imperial cult to the extreme. I would put them on at least the physical strength of any storm trooper. As has also been noted they are made much stronger by their power armor. They should in theory have the same strength output as a space marine, but without the interface for the power armor that space marines have they are slower and effectively weaker.


on a side note, why the hell do orks only have 3 strength? Have you looked at them? Their arms are as thick as a space marine in their armor.

I agree entirely. I didn't think of the Contrasting Objectives, but that is very logical indeed.

Orks should be stronger, I mean, a pansy Guardsman is as strong as a beer-fuelled, fungus-spawned fighting machine? That'll work.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).

Heresy?

You think its an achievement to start a heresy? There was more than one civil war of the course of 40 millenia.

Now, I see you admit it was the minions of these self proclaimed Gods that did the job and the Gods just watched them die.
Am I right its neccessary to delegate the work to "servants"? If so, any God able to influence both realms without reliance on willing servants or able to enter both realms is more of a "true" God than the chaos "Gods".

I absolutely think its an achievement. It wasn't any old rebellion, it was the Horus Heresy. You know, that thing where half of the Imperium revolted and joined what was thought to be the Emperor's most loyal servant, who then went on to nearly kill the Emperor and turn it into the hell-hole it is currently.
Yes, servants, who happen to be direct manifestations of their will. I mean literally, Daemons are part of Chaos Gods. There's more to it than simply not being able to affect the material realm. They sucked the Primarch's pods through a warp portal after all. It's more to do with the fact that bar a few unique instances, the Horus Heresy being the most obvious, the Chaos Gods don't give a damn about the material realm. They enjoy watching their servants, mortal and Daemonic, wreaking havoc amongst the mortal races, but most of their time is dedicated to playing the Great Game, or the events in the Warp. Tzeentch spends a great deal of time staring into some portal in the Impossible Fortress which I can't remember the name of. He threw Kairos Fateweaver into it.

iproxtaco wrote:They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.

I'd say they wouldn't hold back if they could relief the galaxy of them. And we know "Gods" can die. ( at least, elven ones ).

I'd say the same.

iproxtaco wrote:
It's more to do with the fact that bar a few unique instances the Chaos Gods don't give a damn about the material realm. They enjoy watching their servants, mortal and Daemonic, wreaking havoc amongst the mortal races, but most of their time is dedicated to playing the Great Game, or the events in the Warp. Tzeentch spends a great deal of time staring into some portal in the Impossible Fortress which I can't remember the name of.

Not giving a damn could switch off their favourite "tv-show" easily, let the C'tan do their thing and have it discontinued...

Still not sure where you get the ratio of attention spent on the material realm vs the warp from.
Plus, "new" WD fluff grants sisters victories against chaos be it red corsairs or demon.
Just waiting when they realize as per the "new" fluff the number of ordos is raised to 9...

Brother Coa wrote:And again - they lost battle for the matterium. There is no real proof of their power except claims of Chaos worshipers. But that is just me claiming the power of Jesus to Muslim - it's no proof. True, they can do some pretty nasty things, but they are just beings hungry for power, not even true Gods.

That is all part of Eldar legends, and they are known for their lies and betrayal - hard proof for a race with no sense of honor. Aside from legends and rumors that was never proven, and according to rumors from new codex C'Tan are not gods - they are slaves to Necrons.

1. Hyuck. No. Their mortal followers lost the battle for the Materium, the Chaos Gods got what they want, the Emperor out of the picture. The Horus Heresy was a victory for Chaos.

And there is proof. A manifestation of their power can warp a world beyond recognition, Khorne himself directly intervened once on a blooming Daemon world, tearing a hole in reality and raining fire and gore from the skies. This wasn't a legend, this objectively happened, as we and the reader know. Now, their power in the Materium is limited, but it is factual that their power in the Empyrean is enormous.

2. I guess I must have imagined it when the Necron codex directly stated that a starship imbued with a measure of the Nightbringer's power could destroy entire star systems on a whim. I guess I must have imagined it when it was said that the Nightbringer wiped out entire regions of space to satiate its hunger. I guess I must have imagined it when the codex directly states that when the C'tan warred planets were razed, stars extinguished, and entire solar systems were engulfed by black holes. I guess I must have imagined all the countless signs in the Necron codex and some Black Library works that the C'tan devoured stars.

Only I didn't imagine this, since unlike you I read the Necron codex. None of this is presented as legend. All is presented as facts that we, the reader, are privilege to.

And until Ward's rumored abomination comes out, the C'tan are still gods.

Brother Coa wrote:Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength.

What is your deal?

I never denied that the Emperor is powerful, that's one of the most evident facts of the setting.

Only that it's not proven that the Acts of Faith emanate from him, only that it's what they believe.

Void__Dragon wrote:
Only I didn't imagine this, since unlike you I read the Necron codex. None of this is presented as legend. All is presented as facts that we, the reader, are privilege to.

I read it, and if you don't mind - it's all legends and rumors to me. And as you said:

And until Ward's rumored abomination comes out, the C'tan are still gods.

With means that old fluff from 3'rd edition will not be considered cannon anymore.

Brother Coa wrote:
What is your deal?

I never denied that the Emperor is powerful, that's one of the most evident facts of the setting.

Only that it's not proven that the Acts of Faith emanate from him, only that it's what they believe.

My deal is that you said "Act's of Faith are not supported by the Emperor". They from who are they comming from then?
It's like saying: "Chaos servants powers don't come from Choas Gods".

In Warhammer 40k it is simple logic - to who you swear your loyalty/soul/whatever... you get powers and influence from it. And in return you serve/pray/kill for it.
Chaos Servants prey/kill for Chaos Gods and they give them their powers. Emperor's servants pray/kill for the Emperor and he gives them his powers ti use in battle ( you said that Emperor is powerful ). Necrons kill/harvest souls for C'Tan and they give them their manifestation to use in battle ( well at least until the next codex ).

SoB don't have psykers, super-natural units etc... They only pray in battle and they got Act's of Faith to use because of it. From who are they coming if not from the Emperor himself?

Brother Coa wrote:I read it, and if you don't mind - it's all legends and rumors to me. And as you said:

You don't have good reading comprehension then, or you're lying. I suspect the latter. If did read it though and comprehended it then you're just in denial. Admit you were wrong.

Brother Coa wrote:With means that old fluff from 3'rd edition will not be considered cannon anymore.

*Which

Brother Coa wrote:My deal is that you said "Act's of Faith are not supported by the Emperor". They from who are they comming from then?
It's like saying: "Chaos servants powers don't come from Choas Gods".

In Warhammer 40k it is simple logic - to who you swear your loyalty/soul/whatever... you get powers and influence from it. And in return you serve/pray/kill for it.
Chaos Servants prey/kill for Chaos Gods and they give them their powers. Emperor's servants pray/kill for the Emperor and he gives them his powers ti use in battle ( you said that Emperor is powerful ). Necrons kill/harvest souls for C'Tan and they give them their manifestation to use in battle ( well at least until the next codex ).

SoB don't have psykers, super-natural units etc... They only pray in battle and they got Act's of Faith to use because of it. From who are they coming if not from the Emperor himself?

Funny, I didn't say that. I said "It's not proven."

Unlike the fact that Chaos Cultists are granted powers by the Gods. That is proven, not just belief.

The Emperor's influence itself is not proven. He could just be dead. :3

Funny, since Acts of Faith, whatever their origin, are inherently supernatural. It could easily be a boon from Chaos granted as a joke. :3

I'm not denying that the Emperor could grant then, only saying that it's not definite that he does.

Gawsh, stop being so serious guy.