Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No the black templars were part of the imperial fists until they became the black templars. your talking like the Ifists made the templars!

Brother Azul wrote:Because the Imperial Fists are the ones who committed those exploits. Would you want someone who is a little bit like you, but who isn't you bragging about stuff you did?

How could the Templar's have played a part in the Crusade? They weren't a chapter until after the crusade. Unless of course you are referring to the original marines from the Fists who became the Templar's. They were the Imperial Fists Legion and it is my understanding that each Legion was made up of a certain amount of chapters. Its 2 successor chapters the Black Templar's and Crimson Fists were yes made up of Imperial Fists but since they are now part of a different chapter can they still call themselves by their former name? The Imperial Fists Legion are still the Imperial Fists Legion (well duh) they still have the same name, but are just going by a different strength designation as are all the founding Legions. Which is why I wouldn't count them as a second founding chapter. They have merely had two kids and given those two kids a large wad of marine shaped cash.

Except the Imperial Fists aren't a Legion anymore. The Imperial Fists are every bit as much a Second Founding Chapter as the Black Templars and Crimson fists, they just got to keep the name of the original Legion and much of the equipment. That doesn't change the fact that the Crimson Fists and Black Templars had part in the glories of the Great Crusade.

Let's put it this way: Assume that there was another Legion during the Great Crusade, called the Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness. They fought bravely against Chaos during the Heresy and won many triumphs. After the Heresy, this Legion was split into three: The Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars. Why would one of the three have exclusive rights to what they did together? Now replace Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness with Imperial Fists and ask the question again.

I hope that Glorious brothers of gloriousness isn't a new codex...it sounds like ultrasmurfs all over again

@azul I feel like I've walked as far down this road as I'm willing to go. There's some kind of hang up here where either you don't understand how the second founding worked and how Space Marine legacies are traced, or simply refuse to believe that you might be wrong.

Brother Azul wrote:Because the Imperial Fists are the ones who committed those exploits. Would you want someone who is a little bit like you, but who isn't you bragging about stuff you did?

How could the Templar's have played a part in the Crusade? They weren't a chapter until after the crusade. Unless of course you are referring to the original marines from the Fists who became the Templar's. They were the Imperial Fists Legion and it is my understanding that each Legion was made up of a certain amount of chapters. Its 2 successor chapters the Black Templar's and Crimson Fists were yes made up of Imperial Fists but since they are now part of a different chapter can they still call themselves by their former name? The Imperial Fists Legion are still the Imperial Fists Legion (well duh) they still have the same name, but are just going by a different strength designation as are all the founding Legions. Which is why I wouldn't count them as a second founding chapter. They have merely had two kids and given those two kids a large wad of marine shaped cash.

Ever heard of Sigismund? The founder of the Black Templars? He was also the 1st company captain of the Imperial Fists during the Great Crusades. Hell everyone under his command were future black templars. The Black Templars were in the war and they did fight at the palace and a few more engagements than the rest of the imperial fists. They survived and became templars.

No but the Imperial Fists still are the "Legion". Legion is only a designation of strength just like a squad is a strength designation of 10 men, Company 100 men, Chapter 1000 men. A Legion is made up of X amount of chapters. So therefore The Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness weren't split into 3 new Chapters. They were split into 3 but only 2 were new. The Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness are still the same Glorious Brothers just with the new designation of chapter instead of legion.

Brother Azul wrote:No but the Imperial Fists still are the "Legion". Legion is only a designation of strength just like a squad is a strength designation of 10 men, Company 100 men, Chapter 1000 men. A Legion is made up of X amount of chapters. So therefore The Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness weren't split into 3 new Chapters. They were split into 3 but only 2 were new. The Glorious Brothers of Gloriousness are still the same Glorious Brothers just with the new designation of chapter instead of legion.

That may be true (first part.)
But the black templars split from the fists because they were the most zealous not the newest, the newest were the crimson fists.

@auston - I have no problem being wrong and if someone can show me where i have gone wrong the please do.


I can also see that when arrayed against 4 or 5 (or more) people who no doubt all zealously agree on the same point that its more then a fair bet that i've missed something somewhere along the line. I have been told that i'm stubborn to a fault which has often been to my detriment. Now you all are more then likely sick of debating the issue with me and because i very much like the dakka community and would like to stay in good standing with its members I will, for my own good, back down on this occasion.

Brother Azul wrote:A Legion is made up of X amount of chapters.

False. The Chapters are what the Legions became.


It seems as if you're under the impression that the Black Templars and Crimson Fists somehow "branched off" the Imperial Fists, when what really happened was the Legion was split in three. The Imperial Fists Chapter shares the glories of their fighting during the Heresy with the Crimson Fists and Black Templars Chapters because they were the same Legion. Let me try again: If you win an Olympic gold medal for your country, but later in life settle down in another country, does that mean your original country doesn't have bragging rights anymore?

Second founding Chapters are different to Third and later founding Chapters in that they were part of the Legions. They thus have equal part in the bragging rights of what their founders did during the Heresy, while Third and later founding Chapters weren't originally made up of veterans of the Heresy. I'd thus consider any claims to glory by Third and later founding Chapters to be silly, because they didn't ever have the entire Chapter consist of the guys who actually did the things they take credit for.

Brother Azul wrote:@auston - I have no problem being wrong and if someone can show me where i have gone wrong the please do.


I can also see that when arrayed against 4 or 5 (or more) people who no doubt all zealously agree on the same point that its more then a fair bet that i've missed something somewhere along the line. I have been told that i'm stubborn to a fault which has often been to my detriment. Now you all are more then likely sick of debating the issue with me and because i very much like the dakka community and would like to stay in good standing with its members I will, for my own good, back down on this occasion.

Don't worry happened to me too. When it comes to fluff we are vicious like a panther or a puma i don't know which.

Still why the Black Templars or Dark Angels?

There are tons of badass chapters out there, like the Star Phantoms, Executioners, Caracadohns, helk alot of the badab war chapters were awesome.

there are alot of chapters to choose from.

Asherian Command wrote:
Still why the Black Templars or Dark Angels?

We've just been through "why the Black Templars", haven't we?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Still why the Black Templars or Dark Angels?

We've just been through "why the Black Templars", haven't we?

Yeah I know but those two chapters are famous there alot of other chapters that are just as awesome.

Why BA and DA harkens back to our army hopping OP.

Bottom line is they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Neither are "Better" or "Worse" than the other.

Thread all wrapped up nicely then eh?

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members were no longer Fists. While the still may have retained their allegiance to the progenitor chapter they were Templar's at the days end and while they still may have had the honour of being one of the defenders of the palace of Terra, their younger BT brethren could not claim to be Imperial Fists by any stretch. And they are most likely dead now anyway.


EDIT* - I hit submit instead of review. This is my full post.

No, I'm not trolling you. The Entire Imperial Fist Legion fought at Terra. The legion was divided after the Iron Cage into 3 chapters: Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and Crimson Fists. Okay, 4 if you count the Soul Drinkers. So, 1/3 to a 1/4 of what remained of the legion fought became Black Templars. Including our High Marshal who was 1st Captain of the Fists and second to Dorn himself. I'm not seeing how the BT's can't clam to have fought a Terra . Fact, the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, and Crimson Fists return to Terra to fight the Reign of Blood.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:

Yes, but if the Emperor were alive, he would shun the Black Templars. He did not want to be revered as a god. He wished to be known as a man. The DA treat him as a man.

Thus, the DA are loyal, and the BT are heretical in the eyes of the God-Emperor.

You know I here this allot. However, Templar's don't worship the Emperor as a God and more that say the Ultramarines do. The BT no he was a man, both their Primach and founding Father walked with him. But he is still the greatest man that ever lived in universe. They respect and honor him nothing more. Now, having said that how exactly are the Templars more heretical that the Dark Angels. The Emperor also said no sorcery. Well the Templars are the only chapter to follow that command by not allowing any Librarians.

I like both equally much.

The Dark Angels are the original knightly marines, inspired both by the real-world knightly orders like the actual Templar Knights and the secrecy of some of the catholic monkish orders. The combination of warrior-monks and secret agendas I do find very appealing.

The Black Templars emphasize another aspect of those sources of inspiration, the crusading knight, with a lot of holyness sourrounding them and their holy mission. The zeal in this is very cool, too.

Paint scheme wise, the Black Templar's is more striking, but also more bland on the whole. The Dark Angel scheme is somewhat deeper, and has a lot more variation.

Tactics wise I cannot really say, since I only ever played vs. Dark Angels.

I'm kind of biased with the Black Templars on this one since i've been reading more lore about them than the Dark Angels

Why do I get the feeling that Lord of Baal will change armies... again?

Aside from that, Black Templars. They are not heretics in dresses wallowing in self-pity.

People that 'wallow in self pity' don't hunt down others and torture them.

I once asked the question, "What would happen if the Dark Angels revealed their secret?"

Henners91 wrote:Everyone'd shrug and say 'who cares?'

Dustballs would roll past.

A lot of DAs would feel very awkward.

So yeah, if they just told the Imperium what happened right after the Heresy, I'm not sure they would be any worse off than they are today.

It depends on what part of the secret the imperium found out about. The “Fallen” stuff they wouldn’t care much about but the various acts of heresy they have committed afterwards in trying to protect that secret (like shooting at other SM chapters and stuff) might raise a few flags.

Luco wrote:People that 'wallow in self pity' don't hunt down others and torture them.

Yeah you are right. That is bitterness for their own failure. Thanks for reminding me from that also.

Ya know, something about the many dark angles armies that are nothing but like 8 ravenwing battle forces worth of bikes makes me wonder why there are so many votes for their tatics...

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:Why do I get the feeling that Lord of Baal will change armies... again?

Aside from that, Black Templars. They are not heretics in dresses wallowing in self-pity.

Well he hasn't posted anything in a month.... he may have dropped out of the hobby already.

.

They're both awesome and I like them equally, but fro different reasons. So I ticked everything!

Dark angels. I dont think thats even close.

i have to say dark angels because the raven wing and the deathwing are awesome ways of play the army.