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Dark Angels. I have an innate hatred of High Marshall Helbrecht.

Love both of them.

Black Templars Fluff, Armour, Emperors Champion nuff said.

Black Templars have already been supreme, and always will be.

I dislike both, Black Templars are a 2nd founding chapter, and they have their own codex? What I don't even. "BT are so cool beans because they are crusading knights in space!" Well there is another army that are knights, in fact they even have "knights" in their name, their called Grey Knights. I dislike Dark Angels beacuse there is really nothing special about them then "we have a super special secret that were not gonna tell you hehe".

Also as an ork player, I have to hate both armies. Ghaz wrecked Beial, and Yarrick is using the Black Templars like tools to find Ghaz.

Lord of Baal wrote:Black Templars have already been supreme, and always will be.

DAMN YOU GRAMMAR NAZI!
This sentence is improperly constructed. The use of the past tense implies that the statement is currently not operative. The use of the infinitive implies that at some point the statement will be true.

Ultrafool wrote:I dislike both, Black Templars are a 2nd founding chapter, and they have their own codex? What I don't even. "BT are so cool beans because they are crusading knights in space!" Well there is another army that are knights, in fact they even have "knights" in their name, their called Grey Knights. I dislike Dark Angels beacuse there is really nothing special about them then "we have a super special secret that were not gonna tell you hehe".

Also as an ork player, I have to hate both armies. Ghaz wrecked Beial, and Yarrick is using the Black Templars like tools to find Ghaz.

Wrong. Templars and Knights are completely different.
Templars are zealous,
Knights are Puritans,

Dark Angels are nothing compared to black templars.
The Black Templars have an entire legion at their disposal.

Aren't being zealous and pure the piece of pie? And I don't much about Dark Angels, but I'm pretty going out on a limb saying the have entire chapters their disposal.

Ultrafool wrote:Aren't being zealous and pure the piece of pie? And I don't much about Dark Angels, but I'm pretty going out on a limb saying the have entire chapters their disposal.

theres a big difference.
The Purtains don't slaughter the innocent.
The Templars do, just because.

The Grey Knights kill innocent people who happen to be on the same planet where their is deamon infestions because they might be "tainted".

Ultrafool wrote:The Grey Knights kill innocent people who happen to be on the same planet where their is deamon infestions because they might be "tainted".

That is matt wards fluff. The current fluff is discounted as they are no longer knights but Grey Templar Failure Knights.

Asherian Command wrote:
That is matt wards fluff. The current fluff is discounted as they are no longer knights but Grey Templar Failure Knights.

Even before Matt Ward took a dump on all of 40k fluff, the Grey Knights were well known for being used frequently in the role of exterminatus by the Ordo Mallius (Which means Order Mallet, in laten ), so yah, Black Templars aren't exactly unique. And you can't simply discount fluff because it's crap, what Matt Ward writes is what we have to go on, Emperor help us.

Dark Angels

1. THE first legion.
2. Best trained and most numerous terminators (Deathwing).
3. Most skilled riders (Ravenwing).
4. Supreme Grand Master of the DA has control over the DA and indirectly all the successor chapters (thats 7000 marines).
5. Travel around in a part of thier destroyed homeworld! (The Rock).
6.Their Primarch is still alive.
7. They have some of the oldest tech of any marine chapter.

For the Lion! Repent! For tommarrow you die!

While there is little data on a lot of the Dark Angels successor chapters it is presumed that they have access to a Legion of their own, as everyone is directed by the Supreme Grand Master.

Lets not forget that we have one of the most uncorrupted Geneseed as well!

Black templars has alot of good fluff and even more to build on.

But think dark angels has a better list of things to use in their codex, so better mix of tactics.

BT has a strong army even for an outdated Codex, but a well minded player can make them lethel.

I dont think dark angels are imo, rather if I should compare them I would say dark monks and BT's as knight crusaders just blinded by faith.
Could also say BT's are the ones doing the dirty work as they are rather ruthless and fanatics! while DA are on the verge of herecy.

Both look good in their own way, but when a much needed newer Black templar codex comes out, then im pritty sure they will have access to alot og new toys or same stuff as vanilla *maybe* who knows.
What they really need is a better hero version of Helbrecht. on the table and on paper his a joke. A customemized marshall can beat the chapter master 6 times over..... but enough about that.

I Like the history on both sides, DA with their dark secrets and pre herecy history.

1. But I like the BT the most, why? Because they turned the tide of war on armageddon, they took massive casualties even Helbrecht was wounded many times over and the loss of their champion made casualties go from bad to worse but still they took the skies and on the ground a chaplain made a name for himself by being the only surviver. Grimaldus hero of helsreach.

2. They are the second founding chapter of the imperial fists. All veterans of The siege of holy terra, Horus herecy.

3. After the reforming of chapters BT's vowed to find and slay all imperiums enemies on a vengefull crusade, that has lasted 10.000 years to date.

4. The Black Templars are also notorious for defying Codex doctrine that states that a chapter may only number 1000 battle brothers. This is partly due to the divided nature of the chapter, being spread out everywhere (similar to the Space Wolves) on separate crusades and no one has thus been able to keep track of their exact numbers. However, it has been estimated that there may be 5000-6000 Black Templars spread out around the galaxy - an almost unstoppable force if gathered at one place and cause for the Inquisition to keep a close eye on the Black Templars. But since they have showed no signs of herecy or ill will against the empire, the Inquisition has not stepped in. Infact they are the most fanaticly loyal of all chapters.

5. I like this one the most. after the battle of armageddon a certain commisar named Yarrick asked to join the crusade for the hunt of infamous Warlord Thraka and was accepted. Now Helbrecht and Commisar Yarrick on the hunt for thraka thats a nice untold story.

Now someone could go on with the list but this is purely fluff and background storie.

I will share this last thing before this thread becomes to long hehe. An incounter within black templars and dark angels, make of it what you will.

Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf

The Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf. This crusade was led by Castellan Raimer, survivor of the ill-fated Garon Crusade and commander of the Strike Cruiser Ophidium Gulf.
Raimer led the 90 marines aboard in a crusade in to a treacherous part of space in the Galactic South, known as the Veiled Region. Here they discovered some inhabited worlds. The primitive aliens living there worshipped a god they called the "Voice of the Emperor".

While trying to find out what the nature of this god was, Raimer destroyed the alien temples and moved on to the core planets of the system. While doing so, they discovered that most of the worlds had already met a destructive power greater than Raimer and his men. During their trek to the core planets the sensorium of the Ophidium Gulf detected a small fleet of vessels breaking orbit of one of the devastated worlds. Augers determined that these ships were of the Dark Angels Chapter.
After making contact with the fleet, Raimer offered the Dark Angels commander to fight alongside them to capture the alien's leader, the "Voice of the Emperor".

The Dark Angels commander was reluctant to accept the help of the Black Templars but did so anyway. During the last battle for the stronghold of the "Voice of the Emperor", Raimer's marines broke through the alien defences and captured the alien leader. This so called god was clad in ancient black Power Armour without any livery or panoply. Raimer now suspected why the Dark Angels were reluctant in accepting their help and fell back to his strike cruiser and chained the prisoner in the most secluded vault aboard. Almost immediately the Dark Angels demaned that the prisoner was to be delivered to them. Raimer first refused this but when the ordnance sensoria warned him that the Dark Angels fleet was bringing its weapons in readiness, he had to comply for his lone strike cruiser was no match for the fleet before it.

When the Dark Angels received the prisoner they broke orbit and left the system without a word.

The fate of the Ophidium Gulf remains a mystery. The last that was heard of it was a single communication when enroute to the system jump-point. There has been no contact with Castellan Raimer since.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ultrafool wrote:The Grey Knights kill innocent people who happen to be on the same planet where their is deamon infestions because they might be "tainted".

They do alot more then that my friend. One incounter they had was to purge a planet from chaos, but since the grey knights are a secret faction. 3 other near by worlds was put to the sword to keep the secret of their existance. In the end they did more harm then good.
But as Tau likes to say it, for the greater good. we cant let just 1 deamon past to start anew.

Why should grey knights be a secret. because they allso protect mankind from the horrors of the universe, knowledge or the knowing included.

Asherian Command wrote:

Ultrafool wrote:The Grey Knights kill innocent people who happen to be on the same planet where their is deamon infestions because they might be "tainted".

That is matt wards fluff. The current fluff is discounted as they are no longer knights but Grey Templar Failure Knights.

No. Armageddon I.

Lyzin Locrian wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
That is matt wards fluff. The current fluff is discounted as they are no longer knights but Grey Templar Failure Knights.

Even before Matt Ward took a dump on all of 40k fluff, the Grey Knights were well known for being used frequently in the role of exterminatus by the Ordo Mallius (Which means Order Mallet, in laten ), so yah, Black Templars aren't exactly unique. And you can't simply discount fluff because it's crap, what Matt Ward writes is what we have to go on, Emperor help us.

Yes but they originally didn't destroy entire damn worlds and systems. like seriously how the hell would anyone else know what is going on the planet next to them? Apart from they know that it is underattack. They wouldn't care they would just bolster their defenses.
But the Dark Angels vs Templars.
Angels win because of how many damn chapters they have under their command.
Templars would win in a straight up fight though.
Really matters what the OP perfers.

Asherian Command wrote:
But the Dark Angels vs Templars.
Angels win because of how many damn chapters they have under their command.
Templars would win in a straight up fight though.
Really matters what the OP perfers.

Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

AustonT wrote:
Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Wow, you beat one Strike Cruiser with a bunch of your own ships. Good job. That TOTALLY means that the Dark Angels fleet would beat the Black Templars'.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AustonT wrote:
Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Wow, you beat one Strike Cruiser with a bunch of your own ships. Good job. That TOTALLY means that the Dark Angels fleet would beat the Black Templars'.

Yes because I was there to lay the smack down personally.

So far Black Templars are winning...

AustonT wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AustonT wrote:
Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Wow, you beat one Strike Cruiser with a bunch of your own ships. Good job. That TOTALLY means that the Dark Angels fleet would beat the Black Templars'.

Yes because I was there to lay the smack down personally.

You get what I mean.

(Sorry if I came across as rude BTW, my social skills are abysmal, and internet doesn't help!)

AustonT wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AustonT wrote:
Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Wow, you beat one Strike Cruiser with a bunch of your own ships. Good job. That TOTALLY means that the Dark Angels fleet would beat the Black Templars'.

Yes because I was there to lay the smack down personally.

As a black templar player myself I will agree that Dark angels will have the same numbers if not greater then BT's. Also their hidden or stored caches of acients weapony will give them the edge in any battle fluff wise. On the table they are even better I think.
In view of Black Templar fluff is kinda funny when you think about it. If they used their terminators like I use them on the table, they would run out of terminator really fast. Point is they may not have access to the same stuff as DA but do often find new, Oh I mean ancient weapons long past forgotten like the Crusader pattan Land raider.

Lets not forget BT are also masters when it comes to fleet battles, and more so a 10.000 year long crusade will make them more battlehardned then most. In my opinion.

Still cant say who would be better but on the table it might be DA untill a new BT codex gets out.

AustonT wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
But the Dark Angels vs Templars.
Angels win because of how many damn chapters they have under their command.
Templars would win in a straight up fight though.
Really matters what the OP perfers.

Really because in some contrived everyone vs everyone dogpile just the named DA successors in the codex AT LEAST equal to the number of the entire assembled Crusades of the BT. Not counting any kind of wierd ass archaeotech the DA are hiding, or the fact that its more than loosely implied that the DA have already offed about a companies worth of BT, but no real word on the composition of the DA force. Still leaves DA:1 BT:0

Black templars have a massive fleet dude. The DA just by themselves with no successors.... BT win BT:2 DA:1

Asherian Command wrote:
Black templars have a massive fleet dude. The DA just by themselves with no successors.... BT win BT:2 DA:1

That's quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have heard all day, and I'm married. The DA act as no less of a legion than the BT do. That's why Azrael is the "Supreme" Grand Master.

Asherian Command wrote:
BT win BT:2 DA:1

Since you presented nothing to support this but you own opinion, it's useless.

@AlmightyWalrus English is not my first language (either?), so I come off a bit gruff even having grown up in an English speaking society. Don't sweat it.

@akkados I don't know if I can agree with your last sentence. DA are pretty weak on the table, the codex is only like 6 months (if that) newer than BT and it was weak then. Both have suffered a little from 5ed, but in truth the BT is a solid codex that is still viable today, DA are not. Want proof? looks at who shows up worldwide to GT and Ard Boyz. BT are still well represented where DA are almost nonexistant.

AustonT wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Black templars have a massive fleet dude. The DA just by themselves with no successors.... BT win BT:2 DA:1

That's quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have heard all day, and I'm married. The DA act as no less of a legion than the BT do. That's why Azrael is the "Supreme" Grand Master.

Asherian Command wrote:
BT win BT:2 DA:1

Since you presented nothing to support this but you own opinion, it's useless.

@AlmightyWalrus English is not my first language (either?), so I come off a bit gruff even having grown up in an English speaking society. Don't sweat it.

@akkados I don't know if I can agree with your last sentence. DA are pretty weak on the table, the codex is only like 6 months (if that) newer than BT and it was weak then. Both have suffered a little from 5ed, but in truth the BT is a solid codex that is still viable today, DA are not. Want proof? looks at who shows up worldwide to GT and Ard Boyz. BT are still well represented where DA are almost nonexistant.

Never said they where bad infact BT are still going strong but BT has lost alot what made them what they are. Space wolves or Blood angels can do all the stuff BT can and more. The only thing really making BT still BT is their fluff and the vow the champion gives.. but his all mighty str. 6 black sword is now the same as a relic sword of any vanilla chapter on so on. If you read higher up on another thread you would see I support both but learning towards BT, im not here to make a piss contest, its nothing but theories and opinions. Fleet wise BT is strong force in space and on ground, mainly because all crusader fleets have their home on flying fortress ships.

Now on the table both armies play to their strength mainly DA is a shooter army *is what I head* dont crush me if its not correct, while BT is a assault army. Funny thing about BT they can allso field a good shooter setup making up for the lack of 60% of what other vanilla chapters can use.

But now you bring it up im abit amiss why you dont see more DA's. guessing people like the other chapters more. the reason can be alot of things like they might look great on the table but fluff might hold people back. I for one do not like the look of dark eldar, except a few models.

But since I have never played DA's I would like to know what you guys think of them since you have played with or against them.

akkados wrote:Lots'o quotes and stuff

This might come across as a bit whiny, but please, it's BT, not BA. BA are the Blood Angels, a completely unrelated Chapter. Thanks!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

akkados wrote:Lots'o quotes and stuff

This might come across as a bit whiny, but please, it's BT, not BA. BA are the Blood Angels, a completely unrelated Chapter. Thanks!

Shoot! my bad ill correct that hehe honest typo, my head is full of dirt atm

AustonT wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
Black templars have a massive fleet dude. The DA just by themselves with no successors.... BT win BT:2 DA:1

That's quite possibly the most ignorant thing I have heard all day, and I'm married. The DA act as no less of a legion than the BT do. That's why Azrael is the "Supreme" Grand Master.

Not really see the Black Templars have a massive massive fleet and are known for being space warfare experts and boarding experts. If you gather their entire fleet in one place your looking at an armada with a ton of fortress ships.