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Black Templars by a county mile.

They driven buy guilt just like the Dark Angels are. But...it's guilt borne of the failure to protect the Emperor; rather than having half their number turn traitor!

The Imperial Fist and by extension the Black Templars fought at Terra twice! First they fought to defend the Imperial Palace along with the Blood Angels at the Siege of Terra, and the second time assaulted the same Palace to free the Imperium from a madman during the Age of Apostasy. They were with the Emperor when he teleported to Horace's battle barge, and they were there when he fell. They've fought a un-ending 10,000 year long crusade. Never faltering, never wavering, never forgetting their duty.

1st founding or 2nd founding doesn't matter. Duty matters. Honor matters. The Eternal Crusade matters. But lets be clear one can not be overzealous in carrying of out His work.

Imperator Rex!

Nah nah nah hang on. Whats all this "Imperial Fists so by extension Black Templar's" Malarkey? I've seen this said a few times now ITT and I'll have no more of it. You cant claim the heroics of your progenitor chapter as your own. If you cant be better on your own merits then don't go stealing the merits of someone else. If we're gonna be claiming thing like that then I claim The Emperor so by extension Lion El' Johnson so by extension the Dark Angels reunited the warring tribes on Old Terra, Started the Great Crusade and found all the Primarchs. And because we are the Dark Angels so by extension Lion El' Johnson so by extension The Emperor my word is law and if you question it I will brand you a heretic and have you killed.


EDIT* - Starting to wonder whether i maybe just fed a troll or not... reads like a troll post... hmm.

Actually the founding members of BT WERE IF and WERE at Terra so they are claiming thier own heroics.

Yes but those founding members were no longer Fists. While the still may have retained their allegiance to the progenitor chapter they were Templar's at the days end and while they still may have had the honour of being one of the defenders of the palace of Terra, their younger BT brethren could not claim to be Imperial Fists by any stretch. And they are most likely dead now anyway.


EDIT* - I hit submit instead of review. This is my full post.

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members are no doubt dead now.

Not really they still have a few dreadnoughts that are alive and have seen the battle of terra.
of course most if not everyone from that era is dead. Except maybe the fallen angels, chaos legions, primarchs and the custodes.

Bjorn would like to say hi.

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members are no doubt dead now.

Not really they still have a few dreadnoughts that are alive and have seen the battle of terra.
of course most if not everyone from that era is dead. Except maybe the fallen angels, chaos legions, primarchs and the custodes.

I thought the only Dreadnought to see the Great Crusade was Bjorn the fell handed. Are there others?

Brother Azul wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members are no doubt dead now.

Not really they still have a few dreadnoughts that are alive and have seen the battle of terra.
of course most if not everyone from that era is dead. Except maybe the fallen angels, chaos legions, primarchs and the custodes.

I thought the only Dreadnought to see the Great Crusade was Bjorn the fell handed. Are there others?

He's is the only one that is still loyal, IIRC. The fact that he is in Dreadnought armor extends his lifespan much farther than bionics can.

Leonus Cohol wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members are no doubt dead now.

Not really they still have a few dreadnoughts that are alive and have seen the battle of terra.
of course most if not everyone from that era is dead. Except maybe the fallen angels, chaos legions, primarchs and the custodes.

I thought the only Dreadnought to see the Great Crusade was Bjorn the fell handed. Are there others?

He's is the only one that is still loyal, IIRC. The fact that he is in Dreadnought armor extends his lifespan much farther than bionics can.

Do i really have to drag out my codex?
"Some dreadnoughts even remember when they were just recurits when the emperor walked with man."
Bjorn is the oldest in the fact he had been around since the beginning of the great crusade.
There were a few recurits at that time that lived onto be dreadnoughts and be honored to live for 10.000 years.

Im sorry, but the whole thing to DA is their stupid, stupid secret. So a few of them went traitor during the heresy, big woop. So they go ahead and make a huge deal out of it, and instead of dealing with it reasonably, they turn into giant green D-bags who are obsessed with a minute amount of heretics and would go against imperial forces to get them. Im sure chapters who have members that turn to chaos feel shamed, but they don't base their entire doctrine around it...

Commisar Von Humps wrote:Im sorry, but the whole thing to DA is their stupid, stupid secret. So a few of them went traitor during the heresy, big woop. So they go ahead and make a huge deal out of it, and instead of dealing with it reasonably, they turn into giant green D-bags who are obsessed with a minute amount of heretics and would go against imperial forces to get them. Im sure chapters who have members that turn to chaos feel shamed, but they don't base their entire doctrine around it...

plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Badass Crusade. 72 black templars that went on crusade by themselves.... in one ship...... And they took out an entire empire... Badass.

Admittedly it may have been a bit of an over reaction to a bad situation but at the time fully half the legions had turned traitor. If the DA were to reveal that some of their own had turned then might they not have all have been declared traitor as well? 10,000 years down the track it seems a bit silly though at the time it would have made perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Crusade. Badass.

When did this happen?

Brother Azul wrote:Admittedly it may have been a bit of an over reaction to a bad situation but at the time fully half the legions had turned traitor. If the DA were to reveal that some of their own had turned then might they not have all have been declared traitor as well? 10,000 years down the track it seems a bit silly though at the time it would have made perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Crusade. Badass.

When did this happen?

Damocles Gulf Crusade.....

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Admittedly it may have been a bit of an over reaction to a bad situation but at the time fully half the legions had turned traitor. If the DA were to reveal that some of their own had turned then might they not have all have been declared traitor as well? 10,000 years down the track it seems a bit silly though at the time it would have made perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Crusade. Badass.

When did this happen?

Damocles Gulf Crusade.....

Source?

Brother Azul wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

Brother Azul wrote:Admittedly it may have been a bit of an over reaction to a bad situation but at the time fully half the legions had turned traitor. If the DA were to reveal that some of their own had turned then might they not have all have been declared traitor as well? 10,000 years down the track it seems a bit silly though at the time it would have made perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asherian Command wrote:plus the DA murdered a Black Templar Crusade. Badass.

When did this happen?

Damocles Gulf Crusade.....

Source?

Black Templars codex. Lexicanum just check it.
whoops wrong crusade
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade_of_the_Ophidium_Gulf found it.
Ophidium Gulf.

Asherian Command wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade_of_the_Ophidium_Gulf

You would think this would be the kind of interesting titbit they would put in the smegging DA codex would you not? To be honest i'm surprised we didn't just blow them up in the first place and go find him ourselves.

Brother Azul wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade_of_the_Ophidium_Gulf

You would think this would be the kind of interesting titbit they would put in the smegging DA codex would you not? To be honest i'm surprised we didn't just blow you up in the first place and go find him ourselves.

Yes because at that time the black templars would of been fully aware, and the entire imperium would of known from the transmission. Plus the black templars are great siege warfare experts. So the dark angels needed some help so they took it and then they killed them. But still thats heresy....

Where does it ever say that the Templars are siege warfare experts??

Sersi wrote:Black Templars by a county mile.

They driven buy guilt just like the Dark Angels are. But...it's guilt borne of the failure to protect the Emperor; rather than having have their number turn traitor!

The Imperial Fist and by extension the Black Templars fought at Terra twice! First they fought to defend the Imperial Palace along with the Blood Angels at the Siege of Terra, and the second time assaulted the same Palace to free the Imperium from a madman during the Age of Apostasy. The were with the Emperor when he teleported to Horace's battle barge, and they were there when he fell. They've fought a un-ending 10,000 year long crusade. Never faltering, never wavering, never forgetting their duty.

1st founding or 2nd founding doesn't matter. Duty matters. Honor matters. The Eternal Crusade matters. But lets be clear one can not be overzealous in carryng of out His work.

Imperator Rex!

Yes, but if the Emperor were alive, he would shun the Black Templars. He did not want to be revered as a god. He wished to be known as a man. The DA treat him as a man.

Thus, the DA are loyal, and the BT are heretical in the eyes of the God-Emperor.

Asherian Command wrote:Yes because at that time the black templars would of been fully aware, and the entire imperium would of known from the transmission. Plus the black templars are great siege warfare experts. So the dark angels needed some help so they took it and then they killed them. But still thats heresy....

Since when were the Black Templars great siege warfare experts? I'm pretty sure that the Dark Angels are better at siege warfare than the Black Templars are, since the Black Templar doctrine is to charge madly towards their foes and butcher them in close combat, which is something that you can't do in a siege. Where as the Dark Angels are meticulous planners, and never like to leap without first thinking thoroughly about how they should leap, and where, which is something that would make them very good at laying siege. They accepted their help simply because they had no reason not to, other than the fact that they are trying to keep their chapters secert, but how would they explain that to the Black Templars?

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members were no longer Fists. While the still may have retained their allegiance to the progenitor chapter they were Templar's at the days end and while they still may have had the honour of being one of the defenders of the palace of Terra, their younger BT brethren could not claim to be Imperial Fists by any stretch. And they are most likely dead now anyway.


EDIT* - I hit submit instead of review. This is my full post.

No, you said they couldn't claim the merits of thier progenitor CHAPTER. they have not. 2nd founding chapters have claim to the actions of thier legion prior to thier reorganization as chapters. It's not like they sprung up out of nowhere, the belonged to a legion. This is like me telling you that now that your grandfather is dead; you are no longer related to him, or anyone before him in your line. It's a touch morbid but there it is.

Brother Azul wrote:Yes but those founding members were no longer Fists. While the still may have retained their allegiance to the progenitor chapter they were Templar's at the days end and while they still may have had the honour of being one of the defenders of the palace of Terra, their younger BT brethren could not claim to be Imperial Fists by any stretch. And they are most likely dead now anyway.


EDIT* - I hit submit instead of review. This is my full post.

So...if they were IFs, but changed in agreement to RG's astartes and founded a second group...they no longer count their deeds because they are now under a different name? That sounds...well, trollish, as you put it before. Just, look at what you wrote. I don't get the opinion you're TRYING to troll...so just take a look at what you said. The chapter started with IFs who agreed to rework their armor/appearance/guidelines, but were still IFs, and future members embraced their forefathers' rules. As long as they give credit where it is due, they can claim their fathers' roles in their chapter heroics/actions (just can't lay personal claim to those actions).

Brother Azul wrote:Where does it ever say that the Templars are siege warfare experts??

Says the war they had where they discovered the land raider crusader

Nicholas wrote:They don't go around keeping secrets in their robes...

I don't keep secrets in my robes either, I show everyone I can before the police haul me away.

Both are great choices.

DA will most likely get a new codex first... but IMHO I prefer the 1st Legion to a 2nd Founding chapter

Asherian Command wrote:Says the war they had where they discovered the land raider crusader

You mean this war http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Jerulas_Crusade?

If you read that page carefully, you'll find the part where it says, and I quote "The crusade became a long siege, a situation the Templars were not suited for unlike their founding-chapter the Imperial Fists." so you just disproved yourself, nice job

AustonT wrote:No, you said they couldn't claim the merits of their progenitor CHAPTER. they have not. 2nd founding chapters have claim to the actions of their legion prior to their reorganization as chapters. It's not like they sprung up out of nowhere, the belonged to a legion. This is like me telling you that now that your grandfather is dead; you are no longer related to him, or anyone before him in your line. It's a touch morbid but there it is.

OK yes they would have originally had Fists among their ranks. I can accept that they would have been able to claim merits that they had won as Imperial Fists, but once all the fists died out would the BTs truly still be able to claim the achievements as their own even though they themselves had no part in getting them?

timetowaste85 wrote:So...if they were IFs, but changed in agreement to RG's astartes and founded a second group...they no longer count their deeds because they are now under a different name? That sounds...well, trollish, as you put it before. Just, look at what you wrote. I don't get the opinion you're TRYING to troll...so just take a look at what you said. The chapter started with IFs who agreed to rework their armor/appearance/guidelines, but were still IFs, and future members embraced their forefathers' rules. As long as they give credit where it is due, they can claim their fathers' roles in their chapter heroics/actions (just can't lay personal claim to those actions).

Uh dude I'm not TRYING to troll any opinion. I'm TRYING to have a legitimate debate over which is the superior chapter for whatever reasons but its become increasing hard with people contributing posts like yours... But hang on your saying, and I'm gonna enlarge this so nothings missed, As long as they give credit where it is due, they can claim their fathers' roles in their chapter heroics/actions Lets say my dad fought in a war, any war pick a war, I have not fought in a war but since my dad did i am able to say with pride that I've participated in such n such war but only as long as i give my dad credit??? Now who's trolling eh?

Brother Azul wrote:

AustonT wrote:No, you said they couldn't claim the merits of their progenitor CHAPTER. they have not. 2nd founding chapters have claim to the actions of their legion prior to their reorganization as chapters. It's not like they sprung up out of nowhere, the belonged to a legion. This is like me telling you that now that your grandfather is dead; you are no longer related to him, or anyone before him in your line. It's a touch morbid but there it is.

OK yes they would have originally had Fists among their ranks. I can accept that they would have been able to claim merits that they had won as Imperial Fists, but once all the fists died out would the BTs truly still be able to claim the achievements as their own even though they themselves had no part in getting them?

So, pray tell me, why is it OK for the Imperial Fists to brag about their exploits during events in which they played no personal part but not for Black Templars to do the same? The Templars played just a big of a role in the events of the Heresy as the Fists. Just look at it this way: Pre-heresy there's the Imperial Fists legion. After the Heresy there's three Chapters: the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars. They are all Second Founding Chapters, the Fists simply got to keep the name of the Legion. By virtue of this, all three Chapters have bragging rights to what their Legion did before it split up.

Brother Azul think about more like this, your entire family fought in a war and when the general's advisers say your to powerful as a family, we're going to split you up. So therefor you can claim those actions because they are your actions as well!

Because the Imperial Fists are the ones who committed those exploits. Would you want someone who is a little bit like you, but who isn't you bragging about stuff you did?

How could the Templar's have played a part in the Crusade? They weren't a chapter until after the crusade. Unless of course you are referring to the original marines from the Fists who became the Templar's. They were the Imperial Fists Legion and it is my understanding that each Legion was made up of a certain amount of chapters. Its 2 successor chapters the Black Templar's and Crimson Fists were yes made up of Imperial Fists but since they are now part of a different chapter can they still call themselves by their former name? The Imperial Fists Legion are still the Imperial Fists Legion (well duh) they still have the same name, but are just going by a different strength designation as are all the founding Legions. Which is why I wouldn't count them as a second founding chapter. They have merely had two kids and given those two kids a large wad of marine shaped cash.