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McNinja wrote:I am unsure why hot-shot lasguns have a shorter range than regular Lasguns. If you have to use a stronger energy pack, the only thing that should change should be either the Str or the AP, not the range. Hot-shot lasguns should be 24".

Maybe, its more prone to dissipation, or GW for simplicity sake, described it such way. I don't know, but Stormies are at last well-rounded in configuration posted above

Squidmanlolz wrote:

McNinja wrote:I am unsure why hot-shot lasguns have a shorter range than regular Lasguns. If you have to use a stronger energy pack, the only thing that should change should be either the Str or the AP, not the range. Hot-shot lasguns should be 24".

The light is accelerated, it's arc due to gravity and forces unknown may be amplified, also they may simply be less accurate and ineffective at lasgun ranges.

either that or the light is focused at a shorter distance due to the nature of the ST fighting and the fact that the less distance the light has to travel through the battle feild the more energy you can put into the shot

Hell I'd settle for Ws4 and a 24" S4 AP4 gun if it had to be changed

Maybe you'd change your mind if you would have seen this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/downloadAttach/101500.page

There's another IG Elite choice, which seems out of gas - Ratlings. Stormtroopers with 24" with S4 gun would overlap their role to some degree. But again, probably sniper rifles have so bad impact on their performance. But this is subject of this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419437.page

How about S3 Assault 18" AP5 3 shots with Rending.

This puts it as a tweener weapon with an increased ROF and the ability to be used as an Assault weapon makes it different than any standard las gun. Rending gives it the less than automatic but nasy AP2 ability which gets rid of FNP and affects terminators also. 10 of these putting out 30 shots means an average of 2 or 3 rending shots every turn. Take the current lasrifle as 12" and it is getting 20 shots (for a squad of 10) hitting 10 times and actually wounding 3 times. It puts it into a less dependable than AP3 but more effective (if it rends)

DAaddict wrote:How about S3 Assault 18" AP5 3 shots with Rending.

Very juicy but li'l op change. I'd love to playtest it but I'm afraid that other players wouldn't be happy with that Change from rapid fire to assault increases threat range up to 24", and allows to follow shooting immediately with melee. Not to mention additional shot, which coupled with rending, means every other trooper will score unsaved hit. But still like it.

Please check our compiled effort linked in pdf, couple posts above, anyway.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Che-Vito wrote:One alternative possibility:

Hellgun S3 Ap5 Assault 2
(May take Combi options AFTER both special weapons for the squad have been purchased. Combi-options available to models that opt to not take special weapons.)
-Plasma +5 ppm
-Melta +5 ppm
- Flamer +5 ppm
etc.

Interesting approach, but few aspects come to mind:
1. Combi-weapons (plasma/melta/flamer) work in very similar way to special options - they overlap, so maybe instead standard SW, let only combi-weapons remain.
2. In case of plasmas and meltas, which ignore all existing armour - squad of Stormies (230) could insta-kill Terminator squad (200 pts). It has greater firepower (though limited) than Devastator or Retributor Squad (Heavy Support units). Thus, balancing would mean reducing max number of Stormies per squad to 5.
3. Cost of options - combi-plasma/melta/flamer in SM chapters cost 10 ppm. Wouldn't 5 ppm make it underpriced option?

Che-Vito wrote:As well as a special rule:
Close Quarters: Stormtroopers are trained to fight harder in close quarters than your average Guardsmen. To represent this, models with a Weapon Skill of 3 or lower, are hit on a 3+ by Stormtroopers in close combat.

This is Preferred Enemy vs WS <= 3, practically increasing chance to hit in melee vs WS3 models from 4+ to 3+ only. Not powerful, I'd say it's a balanced edge Stormies needed. There are not so many WS3 models in wh40k.

On the subject of non-scoring troops, why not let them take a "Capture and Control" doctraine, where they may select one objective on the board to score against and be able to take a valk. as a dedicated BUT THEY MUST disembark to capture the chosen objective.

Would give a fun "lightning assault" idea, and is similar to their apoc formation. (Maybe give them the shoot-move-shoot rule as well)

They haven't staying power needed in holding objective. I'd say that "Capture and Control" would benefit Ogryns far more.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Maybe something like this (changing name, because unit has quite different feel, I'd say even unique, just like last chancers):

Alpha Strikers squad = 75 points
composition: 5 Alpha Strikers

may have additional five Alpha Strikers = 15 ppm
for every 5 Alpha Strikers, you may upgrade one of them to Sergeant:
+1A, +1 Ld, sgt options = 5 ppm

For every Sergeant up to four Alpha Strikers may take one of following: (...)
- hell-flamer, hell-plasma, hell-melta = 10 ppm
If there are two Sergeants in Alpha Strikers squad, unit gets Combat Squads rule.

Insertion: Deep Strike/Grav-Chute

Just an FYI, combat squads is NOT a USR. It is a space marine exclusive rule.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Che-Vito wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:Just an FYI, combat squads is NOT a USR. It is a space marine exclusive rule.

He never said USR...

Someone had said it earlier. I was just adding that in.

I do agree with what your saying hear but if they change IG elites, then they need to change all others especially space marines bcos why buy a sternguard vet at 25pts when you can get a bog standard at 18? And there suppose to be the most skilled shots in the entire legion! So why do they hv the same BS?

So you make a gd case but they would hv to look over every elite unit in the entire game and change them all...

Sternguard get special Issue Ammunition to represent their skill, other marines do not get that.

Majarlischi wrote:I do agree with what your saying hear but if they change IG elites, then they need to change all others especially space marines bcos why buy a sternguard vet at 25pts when you can get a bog standard at 18? And there suppose to be the most skilled shots in the entire legion! So why do they hv the same BS?

So you make a gd case but they would hv to look over every elite unit in the entire game and change them all...

Would it have killed you to type out those extra letters? To actually counter your argument, they get Special ammunition, an extra attack per member, and a larger amount of them may carry Combi-weapons. Well worth the 7 points IMHO, they're also elites and can score with Kantor on the field. Really worth it.

I am a little envious of Sternguard; Marines "Elite" guys get good stuff, while our are Marine killers. Great, until the marines get to shoot back.

If Hot shot lasguns got special ammo I'd be happy, or a strength increase; If they;re going to kill Marines, might as well do it well.

Don't forget if you want to go down the fluff route marine armies would only have about 5 models in 2k against a horde of Orks because they are the space marines but they can't as they need to keep the game balanced so i think the str 4 Ap 4 and stubborn would be the best choice in my honest opinion.