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What about a Mission that gives them fearless?

Augmented lobotomy(see mechanist Storm Troopers)

or "Suicide Squads", "no one comes home" etc

dreadfury101 wrote:What about a Mission that gives them fearless?

Augmented lobotomy(see mechanist Storm Troopers)

or "Suicide Squads", "no one comes home" etc

Fearless wouldn't really help them. Most CC units can beat them. I mean I did with a Tau squad

Do you mean like old bionics or FNP for the augmented troopers? Actually you could give them access to squad medics I suppose. Be a bit OT I admit.

But I think most people want a boost to killing power not survivability.

Banzaimash wrote:Suspensor heavy bolters would give them a punch (range 18", str5 ap 4 assault 3).

but this would have to take up both sw slots or some other balanceing factor, but i really like this idea

Many people are saying ST are good enough as they are now. But that is not true. How often do you see ST on the field? On how many tournaments did lists with ST make it to the top? Is your personal experience good with them when playing against competitive armies? Dont think so...at least mine is very bad and I use them very often (since I like the models, thats the only reason).

There is a reason why top players (tournament winners) do not use ST. They can only be used as a suicide squad (with meltas/plazmas, 5-man squad, mostly deep striking). But you are paying so much for it, it is just highly ineffective. And you will only use their special weapons. Hot shot lasguns are really bad bargain for that price of 16 points a man.

5-man squad is also a very easy kill point for enemy to take (you can count them as K.I.A. after you use them). And what can they do in return? Not much. With 2 meltas you can try to take out some tank (best use of ST). The chance of success is very low even when you hit during DS (and you hit only 56% with DS reroll). And even if you do, there is not many vehicles they are good at destroying (to make it worth the point cost of ST).

Compare them to the chaos termies, which are also used as suicide DS squad. Termies have MUCH better stats, 3 meltas (only combi meltas, but this is suicide unit, remember?), 2+ armour, 5+ invul, higher morale, power weapons which you can upgrade to chainfists, etc:
ST, 5-man, 2-meltas...105 points (+better DS)
Chaos termies, 3-man squad, 3-combi meltas....105 points (+better stats and armour and accurate DS when close to the standart bearer).......ST's are crap in comparison...

My experience with ST. They often scatter and are not in melta range because of that (or worse - I have to roll the Mishap table). If they hit during DS, they shot at vehicle. Very often (not mostly) only 1 melta hits. Melta hits sometimes not even penetrate the vehicle, but most times they does IF they are in melta range. Very often this penetrate hit stuns/immobilizes/destroy weapon (it is only 50% chance to destroy the vehicle). When you take into account all the things that can go wrong you figure out there is only a small chance to finally destroy the vehicle you want to get rid of. And you are giving your enemy a free kill point. So if someone sais they are good enough, do not listen to him...

Stormtroopers with meltaguns is 105 points, deep striking anywhere you like getting whatever side/rear armour on the field that you fancy. BS4, 2D6+8 penetration, and +1 on the damage chart.
Then next turn the enemy has to attack the squad with something that would otherwise be attacking something else. Death Company charging at them, for example, rather than my Command Squad.

Joey wrote:Stormtroopers with meltaguns is 105 points, deep striking anywhere you like getting whatever side/rear armour on the field that you fancy. BS4, 2D6+8 penetration, and +1 on the damage chart.
Then next turn the enemy has to attack the squad with something that would otherwise be attacking something else. Death Company charging at them, for example, rather than my Command Squad.

DS anywhere you like....about 60% chance you really get there
BS 4.....1,33 hits (2 melta shots)
8 + 2D6 penetration.....only when at melta range, but ok, I will count with 100% chance to penetrate low armour
+1 on the damage chart.....50% chance to destroy vehicle (4,5,6)

= about 40% chance that you destroy what you want (except vehicles with high rear armour like Land Raiders)...not really a good deal if you ask me. 60% of times you will do either nothing or not enough dammage to justify used points and kill point for enemy.

I'd be happy if they just went to WS4, Ld8 and had the option for an extra special weapon.

I don't think they are as bad as a lot of people think, but I would like a little more for their cost.

SpankHammer III wrote:I'd be happy if they just went to WS4, Ld8 and had the option for an extra special weapon.

I don't think they are as bad as a lot of people think, but I would like a little more for their cost.

I am with you, sir, third special weapon is just what they need . They would be a bit higher in cost (115) but the chance to pop a vehicle would be high enough (cca 60%).

Lothar wrote:

Joey wrote:Stormtroopers with meltaguns is 105 points, deep striking anywhere you like getting whatever side/rear armour on the field that you fancy. BS4, 2D6+8 penetration, and +1 on the damage chart.
Then next turn the enemy has to attack the squad with something that would otherwise be attacking something else. Death Company charging at them, for example, rather than my Command Squad.

DS anywhere you like....about 60% chance you really get there
BS 4.....1,33 hits (2 melta shots)
8 + 2D6 penetration.....only when at melta range, but ok, I will count with 100% chance to penetrate low armour
+1 on the damage chart.....50% chance to destroy vehicle (4,5,6)

= about 40% chance that you destroy what you want (except vehicles with high rear armour like Land Raiders)...not really a good deal if you ask me. 60% of times you will do either nothing or not enough dammage to justify used points and kill point for enemy.

I did you the courtesy of not assuming you were unaware of the maths behind it, I'd appreciate it if you extended the same courtesy to me.
Against non-Land Raiders, i.e. anything with a weak back armour, kaskrins are guarenteed a penetrating hit, and sure only a 50% chance to blow the thing up but weapon destroyed and immobilised are not what you'd call insignificant.
Even against Land Raiders they have a pretty good chance (can't remember offhand the liklihood of rolling 6 or higher on two d6 but more than half) of doing some damage.
And the liklihood of them scattering into somewhere either too far away or onto mishap is pretty low. Depends on circumstances obviously, but that's why you deepstrike in the open.
In my last game they destroyed a Vindicator with ease. In my next game they may blow up a predator or land raider.

I'd be happy if they just went to WS4, Ld8 and had the option for an extra special weapon.

I don't think they are as bad as a lot of people think, but I would like a little more for their cost.


I am with you, sir, third special weapon is just what they need. They would be a bit higher in cost (115) but the chance to pop a vehicle would be high enough (cca 60%).

Thanks, the WS4 abnd LD8 represent their schola education and the extra special just makes sense.

Joey wrote:
Even against Land Raiders they have a pretty good chance (can't remember offhand the liklihood of rolling 6 or higher on two d6 but more than half) of doing some damage.
And the liklihood of them scattering into somewhere either too far away or onto mishap is pretty low. Depends on circumstances obviously, but that's why you deepstrike in the open.
In my last game they destroyed a Vindicator with ease. In my next game they may blow up a predator or land raider.

Agree that they can even pop a land raider.
About scatter. There is a very high chance that after scatter you will not be at melta range and that would be bad. Mishap can occur when your opponent place important vehicles on good spots (where there is not enough space around for DS otherwise then through "hit" or minimal scatter) or surround them with other models (infantry or small vehicles). If your enemy is smart, you are not likely to DS in the open AND DS into the back of the vehicles. Because there will be no "open space" in the back (or side, depends on many things) of your target.

You was very lucky in your game. In my last game I was not able to DS in the open, because my opponent was prepared against ST and placed his vehicles properly. I took my chances and DS very dangerously because otherwise I would not have had a good chance to pop my target (I was lucky and roll "hit", but without luck my ST's would have had roll for mishap for sure). In the game before that I had to DS the same way, because again my opponent placed vulnerable targets well. One ST squad had a mishap, but was only delayed. Next turn both squads came and manage to DS into the back of his vehicles. But the poor basterds did not manage to kill single vehicle. Only "Stun" and "imobilize" one of them. None of this was important for my opponent so I basically threw the points from the window...The game before that my enemy had no good targets (only rhinos) so the ST were a bit wasted (and they did not even kill a single rhino due to scatter/miss/glance). Game before that I did scatter into some dangerous terrain, lost first melta guy and the second one missed (again, points wasted). And I could continue on and on. I really play them often.

When playing ST one must really depend on luck. If those elites are working in your games then good for you. My experience is not so good...

Sry for my bad english

Feth me sideways! I feel strongly about improving the stormtroopers, and I just spent 40 minutes writing the longest post I have ever written on Dakka, just to have it deleted when trying to post it, because Dakka logged me out while I was typing. I tried to go back and copy the text, but when I logged in and tried to paste it again, I had apparently copied the wrong bit of text :(
What I tried to say was that Stormtroopers feel very weak right now, and they would have a hard time even taking out a full unit of lootas or devastators in the enemy backfield, even though the ST squad would cost more than the target squad.
My suggestion was a bit of a combination of you guys' own brilliant suggestions: Either the ST's should have acess to a S3 AP4 Hellgun, that should either be assault 3 R18" or assault 2 R24", or keep their "hot-shots" and make the ST's relentless, as they would have been trained in superb firing drill with focus on close range firefights. This wouldn't be overpowered at all, as they don't have access to heavy weapons anyway. I don't know if the special weapon upgrades should remain the same points cost if their weapons were to be upgraded this way. Their improved training should really give them WS4 so they would better be able to defend themselves in CC, as they would clearly have been trained for self defence and close combat more than the regular guardsman. They should also get LD8 with the sergeant having LD9, because of them being trained to operate without direct contact to the command chain and instead act on their own initiative. This would make them better in CC, while stillnot being as powerful as MEQ, as they still wouldn't have ATSKNF or S/T/I 4.
These three buffs, while keeping the same points cost as now, would make them much more viable in infiltrating/outflanking/deep striking ten man squads with 2x plasma/melta and a power sword, (while still being able to do melta suicide without being OP) as they now would be able to take on most backfield units. They would still have trouble beating CC geared MEQ units without support, but at least now they would be a flexible and worthwhile unique elite choice.

You can't put it that way. Marines have WS4, not guardsmen, not even storm troopers! it is hard to reflect this in a 10-point stat system, but you reason that they should have LD8; so you reckon they are as strong psychically as Marines? at least if we put it your way.

Kasrkin52 wrote:
Presently storm troopers are not that great. If used, they usually deepstrike with melta weapons. Suicide units if you will. In addition to this, they are expensive for a unit that cant offer much. For 16pts a pop after the inital 85 for a 5 man squad, you get a Veteran guardsman in caraprace armor, with a hot-shot lasgun. Veterans are 7 points per man, and the entire suad can have the same armor for 30 more points making them essentially 10 points each. Lets not forget veterans can have 3 special weapons and a heavy weapon. So for 100 points you get 10 veterans with more options, compared to 5 stormies with less options for 85 points. When in comparison to space marines: a tactical squad is 90 pts. thats 18 per space marine. SO for 2 more points you get +1 WS, I, Ld, S, T and power armor. Seems like a deal compared to the price tag of a stormie right? And of course the SM have access to more equipment as well.

just a minor correction that supports your point a bit more, space marines are 16 points, the extra points in the initial 90 is because of the sergeant. With that in mind, your point is even more proven, after all they are most definately not worth the same as a space marine. The primary reason for their cost I feel is the potency of their AP 3 weapons. I'll get into the strength issues in a sec but despite their low strength, with AP3 they will annihilate any squad from a GEQ army, be it dire avengers, fire warriors, or even guardsman. Since it is rare for a unit to have a 2+ save outside of space marines, the ap of their weapons means that pretty much any unit in an opposing army is at threat by the piercing ability of their guns.

Kasrkin52 wrote:According to the fluff, storm troopers are trained since thier youth. Thier skills are second to none, and is the best humanity has to offer before space marines. They love the empeor with the upmost zeal. They spearhead assults and get key objectives and move from one place to another in rapid succession/ deployment. Awesome, but thier current stats have nothing to show for this.

Now with all I said, (there was a purpose for all of it i promise) stormies need to be buffed outright.

WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
I: 3
A: 1/2 (pistols)
Ld: 8 (9 for sergeant)
Sv: 4+
Weapon: Hot shot lasgun - 24" S4, AP3 Rapid Fire OR 18" S4, AP 6 Assualt 3 Pinning
.

I concur with your stat changes, their years of training puts them above most recruits. My only minor qualm is that the average true full armored space marines has about 60 years of battle experience under his belt to get that WS 4, something no guardsman could ever have. From a fluff standpoint then, you're totally wrong. Logically however, considering the WS of guardsman leaders, I find your change to be perfectly sensible, after all they're better than guardsman in training and experience it should reflect this, same with their leadership.

My only problem is your S modification to the hotshot lasgun. The reason for this is as follows:

you squad deep strikes next to my fire warriors (12 fire warriors against 10 hotshot lasguns, let's just assume they're in range, rapid fire too because deep strike tends to land you there, to make this easy)

19 shots at rapid fire range (sergeant's pistol and 9 hotshots)
12.66 hit
6.33 wound, 6.33 die because ap3.

at their present state you just killed over half my squad in one round of shooting. Against any GEQ, armor save or not, this is what you're doing

now bump it up to S4 and you'll see what happens:
19 shots
12.66 hit
8.4 wound, 8.4 die.
against any squad you just killed them all in one round of shooting based on pure mathhammer. sometimes more sometimes less, but pure math means that at S4 you're gonna be killing whatever squad they shoot at. you won't even need to take special weapons, just drop them near a squad on an objective and bam that squad is toast.

from a fluff standpoint, you're also wrong:
Bolters fire explosive rounds designed to penetrate armor and rend flesh. Las weapons fire concentrated light (not plasma! different matter states!) by increasing the armor peircing capabilities of the laser, you reduce it's overall area to increase focus and increase the rrate and amount that light particles strike a surface. In captain tightpants talk: it's like putting your finger over the nozzle of a hose. You decrease the area so the water shoots out faster. The water doesn't get any stronger, but it strikes harder. That's why hotshot lasguns have the same strength but greater armor peircing than standard lasguns: they shoot concentrated light rather than standard shots. The reason that lascannons are so much more powerful is that they use a chemical laser that requires battery exchangers after each shot, the difference being like comparing a laser pointer to the spartan laser. which is also why hotshot lasguns, despite having close to the same armor peircing potential as lascannons, do not have the same strength. they fire a different kind of laser, the same kind as a lasgun, just focused into a tighter beam to allow it to burrow thru armor like a needle.

In short, increasing the strength of hotshots is a bad idea, both for fluff, and for the havoc it will wreak on every army in the game. It will make storm troopers a must have that can wipe out any squad short of terminators that they come across. Hell with AP 3 they can even take on warriors and win, since with BS4 they'll pop enough wounds to take down warriors in just a few rounds of shooting. Increasing their strength will only break them and make them op

that said, the rest of their options seem to be kosher excellent work you definately put a lot of thought into this

All that mathhammer is assuming that the target squad is out of cover, which is a very unlikely situation in this edition. The cover saves might get nerfed quite a lot in next edition, but when considering damage output in this edition, AP3 is not that important, unless you opponent is caught completly off guard. Therefore, I find AP3 way too overpriced when given to infantry units in this edition.

Fluff wise, WS4 does make sense when comparing stormtroopers to other WS4 guard units, like regular commisars, platoon commanders and Ogryns, all which are not as elite and skilled as the stormtroopers in the fluff. Stormtroopers are more skilled in CC, as they are trained to assault fortifications and capture key locations in advance of the main force.

You can't put it that way. Marines have WS4, not guardsmen, not even storm troopers! it is hard to reflect this in a 10-point stat system, but you reason that they should have LD8; so you reckon they are as strong psychically as Marines? at least if we put it your way.

DKK have WS4, I agree that the 10 point system make things difficult but making ST WS4 BS4 just make them the best humanity has to offer. Marines still have higher T, S and I to represent the process of becoming marines. I stand by my first idea all you need to boost ST (IMHO) is +1 the WS, leadership and Special weapon slots.

Bonde wrote:All that mathhammer is assuming that the target squad is out of cover, which is a very unlikely situation in this edition. The cover saves might get nerfed quite a lot in next edition, but when considering damage output in this edition, AP3 is not that important, unless you opponent is caught completly off guard. Therefore, I find AP3 way too overpriced when given to infantry units in this edition.

Fluff wise, WS4 does make sense when comparing stormtroopers to other WS4 guard units, like regular commisars, platoon commanders and Ogryns, all which are not as elite and skilled as the stormtroopers in the fluff. Stormtroopers are more skilled in CC, as they are trained to assault fortifications and capture key locations in advance of the main force.

Pure BS.
Commissars got the same training as Stormtroopers, except that they were the best and bravest.
Ogryns because, well, boyz have ws4 too. It's because of their race being natural close-combatants.
I disagree; AP3 makes quite a difference, as infiltrate+DS means that they fire on what they want to, such as Devs behind a barricade, except that they are on the wrong side!
Platoon commanders>Stormtroopers.
If you want to use fluff reason, then explain to me why a IG captain can take two direct hits from my heavy bolter and still fight on strongly.
fluff=/=gameplay, for simplicity and balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I once considered remaking the stats to a 20-point system, but realized no one was interested.

To point out, for the ig bs4 is only +1 ppm.

Standard Guardsman is bs 3 no krak grenades. Kraks are 1ppm.

Vets are bs 4 with kraks. Since kraks are 1ppm, and vets are 2ppm more then standard guardsmen. Hence bs 4 is only 1 more ppm then bs 3.

Hehe, I'm really enjoying this discussion

I wasn't only trying to argue from a fluff point of view (although someone mentioned that Death Korps have army wide WS4, and they have nowhere the training that space marines do), I also meant that giving stormtropers WS4 would give them a little edge in defending themselves from I4 WS4 attacks before counter attacking at I3, making them a little more viable in assault, which currently they are not at all.

ST's CAN fire on the enemy they want to when arriving, but that doesn't help that the enemy probably will be in area terrain, and will be able to survive the few S3 wounds they will get. After that they can return fire with their heavy weapons (long fangs/ devastators/ lootas) and completely anihilate the bunched up stormtroopers, which still would cost more than the target squad.

Bonde wrote:All that mathhammer is assuming that the target squad is out of cover, which is a very unlikely situation in this edition. The cover saves might get nerfed quite a lot in next edition, but when considering damage output in this edition, AP3 is not that important, unless you opponent is caught completly off guard. Therefore, I find AP3 way too overpriced when given to infantry units in this edition.

Fluff wise, WS4 does make sense when comparing stormtroopers to other WS4 guard units, like regular commisars, platoon commanders and Ogryns, all which are not as elite and skilled as the stormtroopers in the fluff. Stormtroopers are more skilled in CC, as they are trained to assault fortifications and capture key locations in advance of the main force.

Yea I agreed with your WS4 assessment lol, but the mathhammer is important because of deep strike. How often do you see every squad in an army in cover? especially on a key objective, since the key objective is rarely in a building (tactically after all it makes more sense to force your opponant into the open). In addition, how often to do you see space marines taking cover lol, they're an army that hates cover, especially DoA BA, since jumppacks make cover a death trap Deep strike means you can drop right next to a squad, in a position where you have clear los to them with no cover. I site this only because whenever my buddies take storm troopers, they always target the squad thats out of cover, and against IG you can't afford to sit back and shoot unless you're tau. Even then as tau you're going to have to constantly maneuver to get those objectives in 2/3rds of games, so you're rarely going to have cover against their DS AP3 weapons. The best tactic currently with stormies and kasrkin is to drop them next to an open squad, since it saves them the chance of mishap and gives them a clear shot and some poor bastard out in the open, which is why I assumed no cover in my math

I don't really care about the WS4 thing, what I want to see from Stormtroopers is much greater choice of weapons.

They are elites - they should have the best of equipment.

Make a squad of 5 like this:
1 Sergeant - can give 1 order, only to his own men if they are in cohesion.

4 guys.
Those 4 guys can have 2 special weapons.
They can have demo charges.
They can have Melta bombs.
Defensive grenades perhaps?
You can buy more guys.
For every 2 guys you buy you can have 1 special weapon.

That way you could have a 7 man squad (nice tidy deep strike arrival) with 3 special weapons and an order.

Just give them loads of options for weapons, like the Elysians can have, they are all pretty much stormtroopers.


Actually, a deepstriking squad of 11 with 5 plasma guns and an order might be a bit broken.

Well, I've seen proposed rules for some Sisters of Battle units and got sick. Our vision of Stormies is something between Seraphim and Dominion Squads (Celestians ' cost-efficency is broken, but our ideas *aren't* so overpowered ;p And sisters have their Acts of Faith...

Ld 9 for leader (Storm Trooper Sgt) of spec ops squad is equal to level of Commissar, or Company Commander (and Sanctioned Psyker ;p). These also aren't Space Marines. Sounds fair.
I think that problems with their efficiency can be solved with orders:
Bring it Down reduces chance to miss vehicle or monster by 2/3. Makes great kill squad.
Fire On My Target exposes any hiding light infantry, or vehicle with smoke launchers halving it's cover save. Perfect for combat sweep.
Get back in the Fight - with Ld 9 and ability to automatically regroup, could make Assaults with Stormies interesting.

They should get one of them (choice before deployment) as a part of Special Operation - such order would be in effect for remainder of the game, without need of test.

Stormies also could make decent jump infantry (as an option), especially when Imperial Guard lacks such unit.

Because everybody would like such fruitful discussion to have definite conclusion, here's compiled effect of our take on Stormtroopers

Special thanks, for following people, bringing most constructive solutions (random order): Kasrkin52, Vaktathi, daedalus, resipsa, dbsamurai, king-newmic, kadeton, AlmightyWlarus, Jackmojo, CalgarsPimpHand, Greyish, Che-Vito, Banzaimash, BrotherHaraldus

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Soltari wrote:Because everybody would like such fruitful discussion to have definite conclusion, here's compiled effect of our take on Stormtroopers

Special thanks, for following people, bringing most constructive solutions (random order): Kasrkin52, Vaktathi, daedalus, resipsa, dbsamurai, king-newmic, kadeton, AlmightyWlarus, Jackmojo, CalgarsPimpHand, Greyish, Che-Vito, Banzaimash, BrotherHaraldus

I very much like what you have done however i would say that instead of two special weapons it should be two special weapons PLUS another special weapon per two or three additional troopers, i just think that two is not enough for a ten man squad (mabye even have it and additional two special weapons if 5 extra troops are taken)

Che-Vito wrote:Very well done. The Hellgun setup seems nasty, but balanced.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:I very much like what you have done

Thanks very much. I hope that others would also like result of our combined ideas
I've checked maths behind stormies' main setups very intensively. Stormies equiped with hellguns are just as effective against GEQ, as they were in 4 ed (per point spent).
Hotshot lasguns are already good against MEQ, but against SOB its terrific, no change then. They still have troubles dealing with squads composed of high T models, but IMHO they ought to have such weakness. Aux. grenade launchers give them some additional punch, but in a limited way. Flexibility and selection of equipment are storm troopers' greatest advantages.
This is also logic behind "two specials/squad". Standard issue stormtrooper's armament already has special purpose, and meltas, plasmas and flamers (which are honed to such degree by veterans) are only support for them.

Che-Vito wrote:
One point of note; as it is currently, they may only Deep Strike if they take Airborne Assault, and may only Infiltrate/Outflank if they take the last of the three options.
Not sure if this is intentional or not.

It was intentional, because Insertion method depends on mission profile, and higher command would choose the most advantageous method (and equipment) under circumstances of current combat zone. Grav-chuting equipment would be required for drops, different one for pathfinding a jungle. Game-wise - it's just a trick to lessen cost point of squad.

MTC+Scouts work well in cover-heavy sites, as well ignoring enemy cover weapons. *Suggested* weapons - hellguns and other assault weapons, (flamers which already ignore cover).
Infiltration+twin-linked weapons work great for picking priority targets (monstrous creatures/vehicles). *Suggested* weapons - hotshot lasguns, heavy hitters (meltas, plasmaguns, combi-GL).
Jump packs/Gravchutes+autoregroup work well for brave raids and withdrawals. *Suggested* weapons - depending on target, but often hotshot pistols and some flamers.

Actually, Outflanking is allowed when squad either is going to Infiltrate or to Scout (so it works with first and third option).

Thanks for feedback.

Soltari wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:Very well done. The Hellgun setup seems nasty, but balanced.

JamesMclaren123 wrote:I very much like what you have done

Thanks very much. I hope that others would also like result of our combined ideas
I've checked maths behind stormies' main setups very intensively. Stormies equiped with hellguns are just as effective against GEQ, as they were in 4 ed (per point spent).
Hotshot lasguns are already good against MEQ, but against SOB its terrific, no change then. They still have troubles dealing with squads composed of high T models, but IMHO they ought to have such weakness. Aux. grenade launchers give them some additional punch, but in a limited way. Flexibility and selection of equipment are storm troopers' greatest advantages.
This is also logic behind "two specials/squad". Standard issue stormtrooper's armament already has special purpose, and meltas, plasmas and flamers (which are honed to such degree by veterans) are only support for them.

Che-Vito wrote:
One point of note; as it is currently, they may only Deep Strike if they take Airborne Assault, and may only Infiltrate/Outflank if they take the last of the three options.
Not sure if this is intentional or not.

It was intentional, because Insertion method depends on mission profile, and higher command would choose the most advantageous method (and equipment) under circumstances of current combat zone. Grav-chuting equipment would be required for drops, different one for pathfinding a jungle. Game-wise - it's just a trick to lessen cost point of squad.

MTC+Scouts work well in cover-heavy sites, as well ignoring enemy cover weapons. *Suggested* weapons - hellguns and other assault weapons, (flamers which already ignore cover).
Infiltration+twin-linked weapons work great for picking priority targets (monstrous creatures/vehicles). *Suggested* weapons - hotshot lasguns, heavy hitters (meltas, plasmaguns, combi-GL).
Jump packs/Gravchutes+autoregroup work well for brave raids and withdrawals. *Suggested* weapons - depending on target, but often hotshot pistols and some flamers.

Actually, Outflanking is allowed when squad either is going to Infiltrate or to Scout (so it works with first and third option).

Thanks for feedback.

i see what you are saying with the special weapon slots but my logic is that they will be breifed on thier specific mission, eg "you will take out the tanks" or "you will take out the MC's" ect thinks they know thier hot-shots or hellguns just cannot deal with and so will take extra meltaguns for tanks or plasma guns for things with a hight toughness, but i guess every unit must have a weakness

MC/Tanks? It's place where underslug grenade launchers come in.
In full-buff Anti-MC/Tank setup we would have:
(10 stormies)
HSLG+Plasma Pistol (Sgt)
2 Meltaguns
7 HSLG+7auxillary grenade launchers = (185 points)

it equals 2 shots S8 AP1, 1 shot S7 AP2 and 7 shots S6 AP4 on any target within 12". And they would count as twin-linked against tanks if stormies got into board via infiltration. Of course, squad can afford only one such 'Alpha Strike' (Aux GL is One Shot) but few things can withstand such fussilade.

I am unsure why hot-shot lasguns have a shorter range than regular Lasguns. If you have to use a stronger energy pack, the only thing that should change should be either the Str or the AP, not the range. Hot-shot lasguns should be 24".

McNinja wrote:I am unsure why hot-shot lasguns have a shorter range than regular Lasguns. If you have to use a stronger energy pack, the only thing that should change should be either the Str or the AP, not the range. Hot-shot lasguns should be 24".

The light is accelerated, it's arc due to gravity and forces unknown may be amplified, also they may simply be less accurate and ineffective at lasgun ranges.