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Kasrkin52 wrote:
Presently storm troopers are not that great. If used, they usually deepstrike with melta weapons. Suicide units if you will.

You say this as if there is something bad about that. Also, they don't always suicide. They take a surprising amount of fire, especially if you have them go to ground. But let's read on.

In addition to this, they are expensive for a unit that cant offer much. For 16pts a pop after the inital 85 for a 5 man squad, you get a Veteran guardsman in caraprace armor, with a hot-shot lasgun. Veterans

Full stop. Storm Troopers aren't supposed to be Veterans. They satisfy different roles.

Next thing I hear, you'll be wanting to make them scoring.

are 7 points per man, and the entire suad can have the same armor for 30 more points making them essentially 10 points each. Lets not forget veterans can have 3 special weapons and a heavy weapon. So for 100 points you get 10 veterans with more options, compared to 5 stormies with less options for 85 points.

7 points = model with BS 4
3 points = carapace armor
2 points = AP3 lasgun (free exchange for bolter)
1 point = 'free' pistol
3 points = Pick a USR
Seems well worth it to me. Sometimes the value of a squad is more than it's statline.

When in comparison to space marines: a tactical squad is 90 pts. thats 18 per space marine. SO for 2 more points you get +1 WS, I, Ld, S, T and power armor. Seems like a deal compared to the price tag of a stormie right? And of course the SM have access to more equipment as well.

You're looking at a unit in a vacuum. That's a great way to achieve balance, however, by the end of the day, all of your armies will be identical. I would advise against that.

According to the fluff, storm troopers are trained since thier youth. Thier skills are second to none, and is the best humanity has to offer before space marines. They love the empeor with the upmost zeal. They spearhead assults and get key objectives and move from one place to another in rapid succession/ deployment. Awesome, but thier current stats have nothing to show for this.

Fluff is a bad thing to develop rules from, otherwise you'll have movie marines.

Now with all I said, (there was a purpose for all of it i promise) stormies need to be buffed outright.

Thier current stats are the following:

WS: 3
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
I: 3
A: 1/2 (pistols)
Ld: 7 (8 for sergeant)
Sv: 4+
Weapon: Hot shot lasgun - 18" S3, AP3 Rapid Fire

I strongly believe the stats should look like the following:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
I: 4
A: 1/2 (pistols)
Ld: 8 (9 for sergeant)
Sv: 4+
Weapon: Hot shot lasgun - 24" S4, AP3 Rapid Fire OR 18" S4, AP 6 Assualt 3 Pinning

That's better than a Tac squad with a gun like that. Probably better than Sternguard. At least Sternguard get hot when they try to use their S4/AP3 ammo.

And now my explanations.
Weapon Skill: C'mon trained since infancy and the current stormies ony have a WS of 3? They are considered the special forces/ navy seals of the IG. Thats just dumb. A regular guardsman that has only trained for about 2 or 3 months has a WS of 3. So to show for it I made the WS 4.

This isn't a HUGE boost. I'll give you that one. They SHOULD be at least a little more elite than Veterans.

Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Attacks, Armor Save: Keep the same. Nothing wrong with where thay are at presently.
Initiative: Again trained since infacny. The perfect guardsman: Trained to the peak. I think they should have a better reaction time than the average guardsman. So I of 4 makes sense to me for this.
Leadership: They have a zeal for the emperor. Again, they are the perfect guardsman and etc. They are trained in the same schools where commisars are from. Makes sence to give them a leadership of 8 (9 for sergeant).

I'll give you the leadership. Initiative makes no sense though. They're still humans, and that's a hell of a bonus.

Weapon: These are shock/ assault troops. It only makes sense to give them an assult weapon. THe stats I proposed above just makes complete sense for thier role. They should be able to switch thier weapons to fit the situationn they are tasked with. Since thier guns have a higher potancy than normal lasguns it makes sense that they can switch from the powerful shot to thehigher volume shots. The description even says "a more moreful" (meaning Stregnth wise) "and more penatrating" (AP value) "shot".Thats why I think the S should be 4 instead of the crappy 3 as it is now. SO at rapid fire they can make more shots at the enemy at the range of 18" and they should be pinning due to the amount of shots taken. They should still only be able to take assault weapons, as it would make no sense giving them heavy weapons for the role they are supposed to be for.

But the problem is that you now have a gun at least as good as what Sternguard have, which are supposed to be the elite Space Marines. That doesn't make sense.

Now for the special operations, I like how it is, but should be changed a bit. Behind enemy lines should be just infiltrarte, as the pinning is useless due to the proposed stats of thier weapon. Ideas welcome here.

Funny, that.

In apocalypse games stormies have a formation that gives them a special rule. It allows them to shoot, run, and shoot again (at a different target if they want). Also there is a -1 penalty to cover saves. Note that is is only when they disenbark from thier transport. I dont know if this rule should be standard or maybe an upgrade somehow, but it makes for a very interesting option. What do you think?

Valkyries as dedicated transports? You decide.

Not going to touch the Apoc thing, as I have a rocky relationship with Apoc, and I fear I may be biased. Valkyries as dedicated transports is interesting though. I might actually be okay with that one, though I might have to suggest that if you were to allow that, you disallowed having Valks (and Vendettas) in squadrons. Otherwise you're skimmer spamming.

Since there is no special character that makes storm troopers a troop choice (im guessing sergeant bastonne was going to be one but didnt make the cut) they should be able to hold objectives. May be they should have a special rule like this - Take the Objective: Storm Troopers are considered troop chioces for the purpose of objective based missions without taking up slots in the FOC. I mean cmon, its explained in the codex that they storm key objectives and whatnot. Why not give them the ability to do so?

Not going to comment.

The cost for some of the assault weapon options they have, should be changed. If an AP 3 weapon is so valuable why should you pay more to swap it out for a flamer or grenade launcher? WHy pay full price for a melta or plasma gun?

Grenade Launcher: Free
Flamer: Free
Plasma Gun: 10 pts
Melta Gun: 5 pts

Plasma Pistol: 5 points

Storm Troopers are not Tac Squads. Those are too cheap and you're not building cost into the models for this. Fine, if you must, but you pay full price for the first one, and then you only even get the second one period, albeit at reduced price, if you take 10 Stormies. You want the perk, you have to accept full responsibility.

Now for the points value. Either keep them as is or maybe cost them out to be be 17 pts for the additional stormie after the initial 5 man team. Hell make the 5 man 90 points if you think its undercosted.

I'd rather not increase the price. Your idea is vastly undercosted at standard prices though.

With the improvements made, we now have a fun, competetive unit for the Elite choice. They are marines minus the S, T armor save, and the all-round Ld 9. The buffed up hot shots makes up for this I think, and makes the storm trooper well worth 16-18 points each, and while they are no space marine, they should have the balls and equipent to take em down. SO now tell me, what do YOU think? Do my suggestions make sense? WHat should be tweaked? Do you have other ideas that should be done? PLEASE Feel free to comment my proposed rules and give me your thoughts or even your proposed rules. Thanks for reading, and I hope you enjoyed it.

I think they already have the balls and equipment to take down space marines. Every time I've used them, ranging from two 5 man squads with meltas and plasmas respectively, to a 10 man squad in a chimera with meltas, they've always made their points back. Honestly, I feel like most people haven't even bothered using them; They just accept that the Internet says they're bad. They're really not. Really. They're like the ultimate trump card. "Oh, there's something I'm going to have a problem dealing with, good thing I have this thing that can outflank/deepstrike/infiltrate exactly where it needs to to get the job done." The problem is that your ideas are like the new psycannon. They would become a no-brainer, such that they demand the exclusion of any other choice.

As someone who owns damn near 200 stormtrooper models, and loves the unit concept, I've never had them really pull through as anything other than suicide melta units in min sized squads.

They get slaughtered in CC almost as easily as basic guardsmen. In a shooting war with SM's they merely manage to attain parity rather than having any sort of advnatage, and break easier, and are much more vulnerable to the majority of heavy weapons fire in the game.

There is almost nothing that you couldn't find another unit to do better than Stormtroopers.

They're given too much wargear that's value far too highly for their statline to support in order to combat units that even under optimal circumstances they can merely match and usually will be on inferior footing to.

16pts each is just too much for what they do, and even if they had their cost cut to something more reasonable like 12, they'd still be awkwardly built, they have a bunch of contradictory gear, rules and weapons options that just don't come together well except in the form of suicide DS melta units (and in which case their much-paid-for AP3 goes to waste). Account 5ppm for the carapce and hotshot is way too much. Carapace armor in this game is and always has been ubiquitously over-valued, especially for IG units.

Your changes make sense, but I think the hotshot lasgun is a bit overpowered. S4 ap3? I think theyre OK as S3 ap3.

I think that the statline you stated above, should be correct. The information you provided, with the reson is highly true in my opinion. A stormtrooper would kick a gaurdsmens ass, and yet they have the same WS and I. what up with that.

Just wondering, how (un)balanced would it be if Hotshot lasguns were R18"S4 AP3 Assault2?

In fluff, hotshot lasguns/hellguns are described as rapid-firing, hence the assault. They are also stated as piercing power armour, AP3, and for buffing reasons, S4.

Just wondering, within the fluff, is there a difference between hotshot lasgun/hellguns? I remember reading somewhere that hotshot lasguns are supposed to be next-generation hellguns, but I don't remember where.

Finally, all of the ballistics experts out there as well as people who operate firearms, is it even possible for a projectile to have more penetration power but less stopping power?

acekevin8412 wrote:
Finally, all of the ballistics experts out there as well as people who operate firearms, is it even possible for a projectile to have more penetration power but less stopping power?

Definitely yes. For example, a bullet from the Tokarev TT-33 can pierce class 3 body armor. It is, however, a terrible defensive weapon, because without a hit to the vitals, the bullet will pass clean through the human without inflicting debilitating damage.

But wouldn't going through most parts of the torso hit organs? Like the lungs, intestines, etc? And isn't it worse if the projectile penetrates through the target because then they are going to leave behind bullet hole that was larger than the entry hole?

It would probably create a sucking wound, but it's generally better to have it stuck in the target to debilitate it. Most of why the M16 is so powerful is because it hits a target and the bullet literally spins and tumbles around until it stops.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:
Finally, all of the ballistics experts out there as well as people who operate firearms, is it even possible for a projectile to have more penetration power but less stopping power?

Definitely yes. For example, a bullet from the Tokarev TT-33 can pierce class 3 body armor. It is, however, a terrible defensive weapon, because without a hit to the vitals, the bullet will pass clean through the human without inflicting debilitating damage.

That is the problem that us brits have with the SA 80 the bullet just goes straight through but does not cause that much damage

So basically, the reason that the bolter is S4 AP5 is that it can't penetrate that far, but when it does, it explodes inside the target right?

acekevin8412 wrote:But wouldn't going through most parts of the torso hit organs? Like the lungs, intestines, etc? And isn't it worse if the projectile penetrates through the target because then they are going to leave behind bullet hole that was larger than the entry hole?

That's why I said missed the vital organs. If you hit their shoulder, leg, or hip area, it'll not incapacitate them hardly at all.

As for exit wounds, an exit wound is indeed larger than an entry. But if the entry is .3 inches (7.62mm, common round) then the exit is like, .4 inches ... still not debilitating.

Alright, your explanation makes sense.

I like the statline that the OP suggested, at 18 PPM.

@daedalus

Thanks for the review. I might agree with you on some things. For example, I can understand how humans should only have an I 3 value, but what makes me irritated is the fact that a squad of veterans or even regular guardsman can defeat a squad of stormies in CC. The only advantage they have is the extra attack from a pistol.

Pomyboy wrote:I think that the statline you stated above, should be correct. The information you provided, with the reson is highly true in my opinion. A stormtrooper would kick a gaurdsmens ass, and yet they have the same WS and I. what up with that.

He is absolutely correct.

I dont think just the exrta attack should win them the CC, is should be thier skill, as well as the fluff states they have asualt roles, storming objectives, so if needbe they would charge a unit. I'm not saying they should be the best but should hold somwehwhat.

If the leadership I suggested is too much to ask for, as well as the Initiative, why not give them furious charge or stubborn? Is that too overpowered even at 18pts per model? At least this fits the assualt role and they would get that initiative boost if they charge of course.

***I edited the original post, as I see some things wouldnt work.

Stubborn isn't that bad of an idea...

Nothing is 'wrong' with Storm Troopers other than their point coast.

16pts is too much to pay for a guardsmen of ANY stripe. That's as much or more than some Space Marines.

They have a decent (for Guard) armor save, a couple of coolish special rules, and most importantly that AP 3 Hellgun. I'd say that this is worth 12pts a model tops.

Nocturn wrote:I like the statline that the OP suggested, at 18 PPM.

At 18ppm you'd see them even less than you see them now. T3 4+sv infantry, especially with crappy Init and combat ability (even with WS4 and furious charge they aren't hugely scary) and without any ability to hold objectives, are never going to be effective for those points, especially relative to anything else in the book, and in light of basic troops being 5ppm (3.5x cheaper) and only very slightly easier to kill. 18pts is completely unreasonable for any such unit, even the current 16pts would still be probably be a bit too much for the OP's suggested changes, which tells you how awful that current costing is.

Lets see:
As Storm troopers should be now:
+5 pts: basic guardsmen
+3 points for carapace
+2 points for BS+1
+3 points for AP3 upgrade
+3 points for special rules
-2 points because "Non-troop scoring" rule.
Total:14 ppm

Add ons via this thread:
+2 points for WS +1
+1 point for +1 Leadership
+1 point for +1 gun Str.

This is how it should look give or take half a point here and there for the listings (way to complicated to get into half point range)

king-newmic wrote:Lets see:
As Storm troopers should be now:
+5 pts: basic guardsmen

Don't forget that the basic guardsmen is actually more like 4pts. The squad is 50pts and that includes Sergeant with extra attack and higher Ld.

+3 points for carapace

Carapace at 3ppm is overcosted, there's a reason nobody ever takes it on Vets/Command squads aside from theme, or took it even at 20pts in the previous book.

+2 points for BS+1
+3 points for AP3 upgrade

AP3 is dubious in value given the prevalance of cover, short range (making such ST's highly vulnerable to assault) and poor weapon S, 3pts is possibly a bit much. 2pts is probably more accurate.

+3 points for special rules

Again, a bit much, many other units get such abilities or similar ones for half the cost. 2pts is probably better.

So really what we should end up with is something around 12pts, 10 after scoring decrease, so lets say 55 for 4+1 Sergeant, or 115 for 9+ 1 Sergeant, or maybe 60 for 5 and 120 for 10.

Add ons via this thread:
+2 points for WS +1

Unfortunately there's just no way it's worth 2pts on S3 T3 I3 models, 1pt maybe, especially only going from WS3 to WS4.

+1 point for +1 Leadership

+5pts for the unit perhaps, that's about how GW costs it for most Imperial units.

+1 point for +1 gun Str.

So after this lets say 80 for 5 and 150 for 10, still feels a bit steep, especially considering something like BA Assault Marines or Grey Hunters are like the same cost, and still markedly superior and troops.

We could work backwards from Thousand Sons:

Pros:
Lose Slow and Purposeful = +2 points
Gain CCW = +1 pt
Gain Special Operations: +3 pts

Cons:
Lose power armor = -4 pts
Lose all 4s except WS and BS = -1 pts / stat = -3
Lose Fearless = -2 pts
Lose 2 LD = -2 pts
Lose str 4 guns = -1 pt
Lose invulnerable save = -4 pts

Total comes out to 13 ppm at current in-codex stats.

Don't forget that TSons are scoring, and also seen almost universally as overcosted and under-capable as well unfortunately

True dat, yo. What is scoring worth? And I can't arbitrarily change the numbers based on perceived worth of the original unit.

@vathaki:
-Guardsmen are worth 5 points because there simply worth 5 points. ou have to draw the line in the sand somewhere and as far as im concerned, you start off with the basic mainline trooper as the starting cost no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
-Storm troopers also get a sargent with higher leadership and extra attack under the belt, double check the codex again
-There are only 3 units in the codex that can buy carapace. one can buy it at 10ppm, another can buy it at 4ppm, and the last one can get it at 3ppm. Im using the lowest value you can get for carapace in the guard codex. If you want at 2ppm then make it that way.
-i felt AP3 is equal to 3 points. if you kill a single space marine then you made your points. Plus weapons are notorious for being hard to price right.
-Storm troopers get a 2ppm main special rule and a secondary 1 point special rule on the side. Its fair.
-WS might be 1 point, i just made it 2 points because thats how much BS costs
-Ld of 9 is alot harder to crack than a Ld of 8. +1 points is nothing to sweat over.

iIn the end, grey knights and blood marines may be better at assulting but thats what theyre good at. We did not come here to build a guardsmen greyknight, we came here to build a imperial guard stormtrooper. Its reasonably powerful, alot better than it was before, and still has its fluff to fall back on. Mission acomplished in my opnion.

also, i dont know the costs of chaos so you should follow the skeleton of my example and work your way up from the basic trooper till you add up all the costs. the rest of the points that are not accounted for in terms of uprades for the unit are what you can adjust with. Oh, and the more stuff you add on, the more it adds on to the costs; "Sum of the parts..." and all that.

They are really fine as it is... (As long as people stop comparing them to Vets...)
Some sort of combi weapon for them would be cool though
Instead of wasting time "fixing" them, why not fix the units that are actually bad. Like say Ogryns.

Dunno if anybody clicked on my link, by in my thread, I made the following changes to Stormtroopers:

- Gave them the Combat Squads USR.
- Gave them the option to take a Vox Caster, Demolition Charge and/or Medi-Pack.
- Improved the range and strength of Hot-Shot weaponry: both Lasguns (Range 24", Str. 4, AP 3, Rapid Fire) and Laspistols (Range 12", Str. 4, AP 3, Pistol). I know that Str. 4 might seem a bit much when compared to Boltguns, but Boltguns are a high 4 (49%), and Hot-Shots are a low 4 (40%). On a ten-point scale, it can be misleading.
- Gave them the option to replace their Hot-Shot Lasguns with Hellguns (Range 24", Str. 3, AP 5, Assault 3).
- Gave them the option to take Meltabombs and Camo Cloaks.

Good call on the S4 and good idea about bringing back hellguns, though I think they should be R18"

Jackster wrote:They are really fine as it is... (As long as people stop comparing them to Vets...)
Some sort of combi weapon for them would be cool though
Instead of wasting time "fixing" them, why not fix the units that are actually bad. Like say Ogryns.

Ogryns does not = bad....... they are annoying as hell since power fists can't instant death them.....

king-newmic wrote:@vathaki:
-Guardsmen are worth 5 points because there simply worth 5 points.

Except..they're not. A squad of 10 is 50pts. That *includes* the cost of the sergeants extra attack and Ldboost, and the ability to merge squads.

you start off with the basic mainline trooper as the starting cost no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Except that doesn't quite work all the time. There is no cost for just the trooper given, and the basic trooper has an ability stormtroopers will never get, Scoring.

-Storm troopers also get a sargent with higher leadership and extra attack under the belt, double check the codex again

Yes they do, I never said anything to the contrary, but he costs the squad an additional 5pts (base squad of 4+1sergeant is 85pts, an additional 5 is 80pts)

-There are only 3 units in the codex that can buy carapace. one can buy it at 10ppm, another can buy it at 4ppm, and the last one can get it at 3ppm. Im using the lowest value you can get for carapace in the guard codex. If you want at 2ppm then make it that way.

Right, I understand the equivalency, but one should also realize when looking at carapace that nobody takes it because for those values are simply too high to be worth it. As I noted, even in the last codex when it was 20pts, nobody took it competitively.

-i felt AP3 is equal to 3 points. if you kill a single space marine then you made your points. Plus weapons are notorious for being hard to price right.

Right, but again on relatively easy to kill models with very short ranged, low S guns that cannot be followed up with an assault, and especially given the prevalance of cover, 3ppm is difficult to justify.

-Storm troopers get a 2ppm main special rule and a secondary 1 point special rule on the side. Its fair.

They cannot utilize all of their special operations rules in a game however, only 1, meaning the marginal value of those abilities over each other relatively low. They also don't use them anywhere near as effectively as most other units given their relatively S, T, I, Ld and Sv and the relative weakness of their basic weapons (S3 guns).

-WS might be 1 point, i just made it 2 points because thats how much BS costs

BS gives a direct 33% increase in effective firepower over BS3. WS3 won't net the same kind of return, especially with stats that generally means the vast majority of enemies will strike first, strike harder, and be harder to harm in return.

-Ld of 9 is alot harder to crack than a Ld of 8. +1 points is nothing to sweat over.

Perhaps, but at the same time, relating ST's to anything in their current price-range, they're going to be taking that test a lot more often, and they don't have other special rules to help mitigate it (e.g. ATSKNF)

iIn the end, grey knights and blood marines may be better at assulting but thats what theyre good at.

In the case of the former they're also just as good if not better at shooting, and the latter isn't much worse at shooting (in fact, the only if sitting at 12" and trading shots without cover are the assault marines going to be in trouble, if sitting at 12" and the marines have cover they'll beat the ST's at shooting even if the ST's also have cover) , and equivalent if not better as a tank hunting unit.

also, i dont know the costs of chaos so you should follow the skeleton of my example and work your way up from the basic trooper till you add up all the costs. the rest of the points that are not accounted for in terms of uprades for the unit are what you can adjust with. Oh, and the more stuff you add on, the more it adds on to the costs; "Sum of the parts..." and all that.

The problem is that with this line of thinking, without acknowledging diminishing returns, you end up with what the Stormtrooper is now, a unit with too many special rules and fancy wargear that doesn't have a statline to support it and make effective use of all that, and ends up costing half again as much as it should.

Jackster wrote:They are really fine as it is... (As long as people stop comparing them to Vets...)

How so? The problem isn't only comparing them to vets, it's when you compare them to anything else in the same general price range. Vets will do pretty much every job just as well except back field AT for fewer points and hold objectives, while anything else that costs as much as ST's will be roughly as shooty but also far hardier and better in CC.

Diesel Stradin wrote:
Ogryns does not = bad....... they are annoying as hell since power fists can't instant death them.....

No, actually theyr'e pretty awful. Just because a powerfist won't ID them doesn't make them good. A basic tac squad can nearly match them point for point in CC, and will outfight them with a single powerfist routinely. Ld6/7 doesn't exactly help either for a CC shock unit...

-I agree that the sargent does cost more than the average trooper but because you cannot buy sargents separately anymore, the basic cost of the trooper averages out to be 5 points.
The ability to merge squads is null as it presents a good thing and a bad thing wraped into one. There is no need to pay for it.
+1 point to merge the squad
-1 point because you now have less squads to work with.

-you are right, there is a cost for putting another unit onto the field, im not sure if i added it in there but it should be there.

-carapace should be woth 2ppm but thats for another thread to decide.

Everything else is debatable but requires too much effort: im just showing where generaly all the points went into the model and what its generaly worth: 13-14 points instead of 16 for the normal trooper which is a very big drop in points. paying 17-18 points for this upgraded trooper should also be about right. Cant know for sure but as the biggest rule of all in making points adjustments says:
"It is better to aim over and have a slightly bad unit then to aim under and have an overpowered one"

-Everyone compares stormtroopers to vets because stormtroopers are supposed to be better than vets yet storm troopers fail to beat them in almost every catagory that you put the two in. Go figure.

- I like all of spoons suggestions, they feel right for a storm trooper. Maybe stepping on the toes for the spacemarines when it comes down to Combat Squads but i dont think it will hurt too much.

-Ogryns: dont let anyone tell you otherwise, they are priced very badly for what they do and are missing a couple of features. As for fixing them, go and check 2 or 3 threads back and you'll find several good fixs, one made by me, another by spoon, and another 1 or 2 that derseve mentioning. All of them are better than they were before. Give them a look see and support your local Dakka-posters!

In the Tau Codex Brainstorm Thread, we were talking about reworking rapid to be assault1/heavy2.

This might be interesting to allow stormies the ability to move and fire at max range or stay stationary and fire twice. However, I can't imagine it being beneficial to keep a unit like stormies still for a turn since they are only 18"

I don't remember if it was mentioned earilier, would making Hot-shot lasguns Assault2 be too much?