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This is my take on how the stats and such should be changed. Feel free to comment and make your own suggestions. But first, here are my impressions.

Presently storm troopers are not that great. If used, they usually deepstrike with melta weapons. Suicide units if you will. In addition to this, they are expensive for a unit that cant offer much. For 16pts a pop after the inital 85 for a 5 man squad, you get a Veteran guardsman in caraprace armor, with a hot-shot lasgun. Veterans are 7 points per man, and the entire suad can have the same armor for 30 more points making them essentially 10 points each. Lets not forget veterans can have 3 special weapons and a heavy weapon. So for 100 points you get 10 veterans with more options, compared to 5 stormies with less options for 85 points. When in comparison to space marines: a tactical squad is 90 pts. thats 18 per space marine. SO for 2 more points you get +1 WS, I, Ld, S, T and power armor. Seems like a deal compared to the price tag of a stormie right? And of course the SM have access to more equipment as well.

According to the fluff, storm troopers are trained since thier youth. Thier skills are second to none, and is the best humanity has to offer before space marines. They love the empeor with the upmost zeal. They spearhead assults and get key objectives and move from one place to another in rapid succession/ deployment. Awesome, but thier current stats have nothing to show for this.

Now with all I said, (there was a purpose for all of it i promise) stormies need to be buffed outright.

Thier current stats are the following:

WS: 3
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
I: 3
A: 1/2 (pistols)
Ld: 7 (8 for sergeant)
Sv: 4+
Weapon: Hot shot lasgun - 18" S3, AP3 Rapid Fire

I strongly believe the stats should look like the following:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
I: 3
A: 1/2 (pistols)
Ld: 8 (9 for sergeant)
Sv: 4+
Weapon: Hot shot lasgun - 24" S4, AP3 Rapid Fire OR 18" S4, AP 6 Assualt 3 Pinning

And now my explanations.
Weapon Skill: C'mon trained since infancy and the current stormies ony have a WS of 3? They are considered the special forces/ navy seals of the IG. Thats just dumb. A regular guardsman that has only trained for about 2 or 3 months has a WS of 3. So to show for it I made the WS 4.
Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Initiative, Attacks, Armor Save: Keep the same. Nothing wrong with where thay are at presently.
Leadership: They have a zeal for the emperor. Again, they are the perfect guardsman and etc. They are trained in the same schools where commisars are from. Makes sence to give them a leadership of 8 (9 for sergeant).
Weapon: These are shock/ assault troops. It only makes sense to give them an assult weapon. THe stats I proposed above just makes complete sense for thier role. They should be able to switch thier weapons to fit the situationn they are tasked with. Since thier guns have a higher potancy than normal lasguns it makes sense that they can switch from the powerful shot to thehigher volume shots. The description even says "a more moreful" (meaning Stregnth wise) "and more penatrating" (AP value) "shot".Thats why I think the S should be 4 instead of the crappy 3 as it is now. SO at rapid fire they can make more shots at the enemy at the range of 18" and they should be pinning due to the amount of shots taken. They should still only be able to take assault weapons, as it would make no sense giving them heavy weapons for the role they are supposed to be for.

Special rules: Furios Charge or stubborn

Now for the special operations, I like how it is, but should be changed a bit. Behind enemy lines should be just infiltrarte, as the pinning is useless due to the proposed stats of thier weapon. Ideas welcome here.

In apocalypse games stormies have a formation that gives them a special rule. It allows them to shoot, run, and shoot again (at a different target if they want). Also there is a -1 penalty to cover saves. Note that is is only when they disenbark from thier transport. I dont know if this rule should be standard or maybe an upgrade somehow, but it makes for a very interesting option. What do you think?

Valkyries as dedicated transports? You decide.

The cost for some of the assault weapon options they have, should be changed. If an AP 3 weapon is so valuable why should you pay more to swap it out for a flamer or grenade launcher? WHy pay full price for a melta or plasma gun?

Grenade Launcher: Free
Flamer: Free
Plasma Gun: 10 pts
Melta Gun: 5 pts

Plasma Pistol: 5 points

Now for the points value. Either keep them as is or maybe cost them out to be be 17-18 pts for the additional stormie after the initial 5 man team. Hell make the 5 man 90 points if you think its undercosted.

With the improvements made, we now have a fun, competetive unit for the Elite choice. They are marines minus the S, T armor save, and the all-round Ld 9. The buffed up hot shots makes up for this I think, and makes the storm trooper well worth 16-18 points each, and while they are no space marine, they should have the balls and equipent to take em down. SO now tell me, what do YOU think? Do my suggestions make sense? WHat should be tweaked? Do you have other ideas that should be done? PLEASE Feel free to comment my proposed rules and give me your thoughts or even your proposed rules. Thanks for reading, and I hope you enjoyed it.

Storm Troopers are not Veterans, and yet everyone keeps comparing them to eachother. I honestly don't see any problems with the current Storm Troopers and giving them S4 AP3 weapons would just be crazy IMO. Valkyries as dedicated transports sounds decent enough though.

Yes indeed they are not veterans. But veterans have more options, and can have more models for less. I was jut comparing point costs and available options What makes stormies different is thier weapon. But it seems like they only have one role lately, which is deep striking a 5 man squad with melta guns for 105 pts, and in turn making thier special weapon (hotshots) that you are paying for useless. How would S4 AP 3 weapons be overpowered? Thousand Sons have the same kind of weapon with a longer range (24"). WHat makes them more expensive is the 4++ invunerable save, fearless, are troops, and have unique upgrades at about 23 pts per model if you want to compare points. What if the new proposed rule I made for the gun had the Gets Hot! rule. Would that be more fair? Should they cost more with proposed rules and how much?

***In second edition, Stormies came with power packs. This gave thier weapons +1 S to thier lasguns. WHat if this was an upgrade for say about 2-3 pts per model, and make the hot shots barebones S3 without htis upgrade. Fair now?

AP 3 is over powered, IMHO. Otherwise, your proposals seem fair enough. What were you thinking on the points side of things?

cosmic pixie wrote:AP 3 is over powered, IMHO. Otherwise, your proposals seem fair enough. What were you thinking on the points side of things?

AP3 is not over powered.
It is representetive of the fluff and I think very fair for their cost.

AP 3 is not overpowered especially when there is a 4+ cover save almost everywhere. I think anywhere between 16-19 points per model would be fair if all rules I proposed where included.

I actually rather like the stats on Storm Troopers as they are, but I'd argue they ought to be a smidgen cheaper (bring them down to 13 points per model and reduce the cost of special weapons to take into account the cost they pay for hellguns) and moved over to Troops. Toss on the suggested Valkerie ( NOT Vendetta) transport and now we've got some interesting choices to work with.

Role wise they have problems though, they seem designed to take out other armies elites (use them against tau and watch battlesuits cry), but don't have quite the oomph to do it, that's ok given the rest of the IG list though.

Marc

Kasrkin52 wrote:
***In second edition, Stormies came with power packs. This gave thier weapons +1 S to thier lasguns. WHat if this was an upgrade for say about 2-3 pts per model, and make the hot shots barebones S3 without htis upgrade. Fair now?

I would take that upgrade at their current cost. It'd make me even happier with my stormies.

As for their cost, remember, its 16 ppm, and 7 ppm for vets. Vets become 10 ppm with carapace armor. For 6 ppm more, you gain a pistol and ccw with every soldier, two AP 3 weapons (hot shot pistol and hot shot lasgun), and the Spec Ops rule, which allows the stormies to perform a varied set of objectives, from infiltrating onto an objective to make the enemy fight for it from the get go to deep striking behind enemy lines to get at nasty targets like, for example, Long Fangs or enemy tanks(if your paid for melta or plasma).

I'm content with what they do. They're the guard version of sternguard imho. Use them to draw enemy fire so your tanks and soldiers can close the distance. If they decided to ignore your stormies, theyre the ones paying the price, since next turn they're liable to eat 16-20 AP 2/3 shots.

I would still err on the side of caution with the AP3 - I'd certainly not go down to 2 - a squad of guard with weapons that are essentially plasma without 'instant death' or 'gets hot' would be overpowered. Even so, at AP3 they will be very strong - that sort of power at rapid fire ranges would be devastating to anything but Termies - which should certainly be a job for mass fire or heavy weaponry - neither of which are the purpose of Storm Troopers.

...AP 3 is already the value used by the hot-shot lasguns described in C:IG, I don't see why we should be cautious with what is already stated black on white in the book? It's not like it's new.

Personally

same cost with S4 HSLGs

or just make then cheaper

I agree with most of what you have up there.... except they should keep their Ld but get Stubborn special rule. Also I think Hellgun stats should be: S4 AP4 Assault 2. According to the fluff, Hellgun is stronger and penetrates armour better. However, having Hellguns penetrate power armour is too much. What is the point of the best Astartes war plate is some Guardsmen can penetrate it easily?

Diesel Stradin wrote:I agree with most of what you have up there.... except they should keep their Ld but get Stubborn special rule. Also I think Hellgun stats should be: S4 AP4 Assault 2. According to the fluff, Hellgun is stronger and penetrates armour better. However, having Hellguns penetrate power armour is too much. What is the point of the best Astartes war plate is some Guardsmen can penetrate it easily?

Hellguns aren't issued in huge numbers, first of all. And it does penetrate Power Armour.
Astartes warplate can stop Lasguns, but not en masse.

I have to agree that ST aren't bad....they just can't compete with Veterans. 6.5ppm for hell weapons, ccws, and a specops is quite good, if they didn't cost as much as a marine. I think that's the problem GW has w/ units that carry AP3 guns, competition. Look at the Tau Vespid and Sniper Drone Team, and the Chaos Thousand Son, not bad just outclassed. I think that they'd be better off cheaper or giving hellguns S4. Even then they're only wounding marines half the time.

Diesel Stradin wrote:I agree with most of what you have up there.... except they should keep their Ld but get Stubborn special rule. Also I think Hellgun stats should be: S4 AP4 Assault 2. According to the fluff, Hellgun is stronger and penetrates armour better. However, having Hellguns penetrate power armour is too much. What is the point of the best Astartes war plate is some Guardsmen can penetrate it easily?

Thanks for the comments. Ok, I can see how they might have the stubborn rule, as they are trained in the same schools as the commisars, and most go on to be one. In regards to what you said about guardsmen killing space marines easily - - the answer is simple, they can kill chaos space marines and the like

I really love, everything you have stated. I feel this goes completely with the fluff without making them stupidly OP. This would make me want to take them more often.

WS 4: ok in my book, they were raised for war from birth
Int 4: probly no on the simple basis that GW doesnt like giving humans a fast reflex...why IDK.
Ld 8/9: Probly best to give them Ld: 7/8 and give them stubborn. Very dedicated but just a bit shy of the commisar fanaticalism.

Weapons: I dont agree with GW going against the grain and giving stormtroopers AP3 weaponery at str 3. It seems like a poorly thoughtout way of giving guard anti-MEQ. It needs to change in either a str increase or an AP decrease because i cant see fluff wise how that makes sense. Or just a change in general, this can go alot of ways...

Valk's: good idea (rouge thought: why not move the valk's into dedicated transports in the first place? *picked up from a thread several mounths ago)

points cost: 16-15 pts.

Space Marines train for centuries to get to WS 4, and they're superhuman. The scale simply lacks enough steps to accommodate the difference between "trained human" and "expert human" when going from 3 to 4 is the difference between "trained human" and "expert superhuman".

For Initiative, see the recent (admittedly crappy) Sisters of Battle. Celestians and Seraphim have similar levels of training to Storm Troopers, and they all got nuked back down to I3. Clearly, training doesn't help enough to make up the difference between "human" (3) and "superhuman" (4).

On the other hand, giving them Stubborn seems completely appropriate, as does having Valkyries as dedicated transports.

kadeton wrote:Space Marines train for centuries to get to WS 4, and they're superhuman. The scale simply lacks enough steps to accommodate the difference between "trained human" and "expert human" when going from 3 to 4 is the difference between "trained human" and "expert superhuman".

For Initiative, see the recent (admittedly crappy) Sisters of Battle. Celestians and Seraphim have similar levels of training to Storm Troopers, and they all got nuked back down to I3. Clearly, training doesn't help enough to make up the difference between "human" (3) and "superhuman" (4).

On the other hand, giving them Stubborn seems completely appropriate, as does having Valkyries as dedicated transports.

Can an inquisitor (not superhuman, not really centuries old) be used? Because they're WS 4 and Ini 4.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

kadeton wrote:Space Marines train for centuries to get to WS 4, and they're superhuman. The scale simply lacks enough steps to accommodate the difference between "trained human" and "expert human" when going from 3 to 4 is the difference between "trained human" and "expert superhuman".

For Initiative, see the recent (admittedly crappy) Sisters of Battle. Celestians and Seraphim have similar levels of training to Storm Troopers, and they all got nuked back down to I3. Clearly, training doesn't help enough to make up the difference between "human" (3) and "superhuman" (4).

On the other hand, giving them Stubborn seems completely appropriate, as does having Valkyries as dedicated transports.

Can an inquisitor (not superhuman, not really centuries old) be used? Because they're WS 4 and Ini 4.

Considering the kind of stuff an Inquisitor will have access to, I'd say they don't count.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Can an inquisitor (not superhuman, not really centuries old) be used? Because they're WS 4 and Ini 4.

Characters can't really be used in any sense, because they're exceptional examples of their species. I mean, Saint Celestine is technically only human, and she has WS and I of 7, but I wouldn't use that as an argument that all Seraphim should be on par with her.

I always thought they should be similar to sternguard ie
different weapon effects depending on range ie

0 - 12" s5 ap3
12 - 18 s4 ap 4
18 - 24 s3 ap 5

to simulate changing the power settings on their weapons or the loss of power over range, or maybe you could forego rapid firing for 1 super shot each up to 12 inches ie s5 ap 3

i agree with the OP stormtroopers should be more elite

shakey787 wrote:I always thought they should be similar to sternguard ie
different weapon effects depending on range ie

0 - 12" s5 ap3
12 - 18 s4 ap 4
18 - 24 s3 ap 5

to simulate changing the power settings on their weapons or the loss of power over range, or maybe you could forego rapid firing for 1 super shot each up to 12 inches ie s5 ap 3

i agree with the OP stormtroopers should be more elite

i like your idea but str 5 is too high IMO i would go for somthing like this

0-12" s4 AP3
12-18" s4 ap4
18-24" s3 ap5

It all makes sense, and make stormtroopers viable without stormicide. Take it to GW. Now.

@kadeton: so vetran guardsmen have trained for centruries to get BS4? Basic commisars, vetran bodyguards, and PCS/CS get WS and BS of 4 and they are probly recieving the same amount of training time as storm troopers. These are not just troopers, these are "the best of the best guard".
As a counter point to the fact that the GW scale is small is that Stormtroopers are not a high 3 but a low 4 in my opnion.

They may be exceptional members of their species...

...but I was under the impression that Storm Troopers were exceptional as well.

king-newmic wrote:@kadeton: so vetran guardsmen have trained for centruries to get BS4? Basic commisars, vetran bodyguards, and PCS/CS get WS and BS of 4 and they are probly recieving the same amount of training time as storm troopers. These are not just troopers, these are "the best of the best guard".
As a counter point to the fact that the GW scale is small is that Stormtroopers are not a high 3 but a low 4 in my opnion.

I think it's pretty standard that BS is easier to get than WS across most races. BS 4 is a lot less special than WS 4. Everyone and his dog gets BS 4. Presumably it's because sights, targeters, recoil compensators and so on are easier to obtain than superhuman hand-to-hand fighting skills.

Storm Troopers aren't the "best of the best" guard. They're the "best fighting force". The actual "best of the best" are exactly what you listed there: Commissars, Bodyguards, and Commanders. There aren't enough people of that caliber to actually form an entire fighting force, so the Storm Troopers are as good as it gets for rank-and-file... and WS 3 is apparently as good as it gets.

Their fluff is mostly about their skill with guns, going on about "fierce firefights", "guns blazing" and "precision lasfire". It doesn't say anything about being able to stand toe-to-toe with a Space Marine.

Zalmout wrote:I really love, everything you have stated. I feel this goes completely with the fluff without making them stupidly OP. This would make me want to take them more often.

Thanks for the comments, Im glad you enjoyed the read.

liquidjoshi wrote:It all makes sense, and make stormtroopers viable without stormicide. Take it to GW. Now.

Thanks, I really hope they make some changes in the next edition.

king-newmic wrote:@kadeton: so vetran guardsmen have trained for centruries to get BS4? Basic commisars, vetran bodyguards, and PCS/CS get WS and BS of 4 and they are probly recieving the same amount of training time as storm troopers. These are not just troopers, these are "the best of the best guard".
As a counter point to the fact that the GW scale is small is that Stormtroopers are not a high 3 but a low 4 in my opnion.

You got it spot on. I was going to say the same.

I forgot to add comments on the cost options of the assault weapons they can take. I edited the first post and will put my comments here as well. I beleive the Flamer and Grenade launcher should be a free swap. The melta gun, plasma gun, and plasma pistol should be reduced by 5 pts. Agree, disagree?

Came up with something similar here, with a few exceptions (just ignore the other units and custom weapons).

I've always thought they should be as such

WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A1(2 for serg) Ld8(9 on serg) Sv4+

Gun: S3 AP5 Assault 3 18", possibly Pinning

Special Rule:
Deep Strike
Infiltrate
Scout
Furious Charge

Wargear:
Carapace Armor
Pistol
Hellgun
CCW
Frag/Krak

Make them 70pts for 5, 130pts for 10.

This would enable them to actually fulfill the role of an actual "stormtrooper", elite infantry that engage the enemy at close range with short range, high RoF weapons and clear enemy positions by assault for exploitation by heavier/mobile forces. It'd make them decent enough as an assault unit to clear some units, but not enough to make them as scary assault unit like Berzerkers or something which IG really shouldn't have, and make them shooty/mobile enough to fit the rest of the army and perform theri function adequately.



As is, they're a gimped MEQ hunter unit whose best role is as a min sized suicide tank hunter group.