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acekevin8412 wrote:In the Tau Codex Brainstorm Thread, we were talking about reworking rapid to be assault1/heavy2.

That might be fine for an additional "Support" weapon class or something. Rapid Fire however is supposed to represent weapons that require concentration and control to operate effectively at long range, but which can be brought to bear much more readily up close.

That's what was being discussed, whether Rapid Fire should be:
the ability to long range single shots and close up rapid shots
or
quick single shots on the move and pump out a steady stream of shots while stationary.(Because you don't have to compensate for two things moving, yourself and the target.

Well, Rapid Fire as you described it would suit its namesake better. I suppose the current rules could apply to a "Rifle" weapon class... after all, why not have both?

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Well, Rapid Fire as you described it would suit its namesake better. I suppose the current rules could apply to a "Rifle" weapon class... after all, why not have both?

i completely agree i think rapid fire works as it is but add in this new idea as a new weapon type of "Rifle"

Hehehe, i had a mind flash last night, what if instead of making the rifle have only 2 types of fire, why not 3?

12" assult 1
-final bursts and sprays before engaging the enemy at CC

12" rapidfire 2
-decently to well aimed shots at an enemy thats close

max range" rapidfire 1
-well aimed shots at long range

IMHO, and truth be told I've only read about 2/3 of the posts in depth, (so I apologize for any redundancy), here's what I think the Stormtroopers should be and why:

I've always noted storm troopers described in book as either shock infantry (rangers, swat units, or marines) or special operations infantry, that being said, leaving human like stats of I3, T and S 3 would be reasonable and recommended. Weapon skill 4 should only come in if a unit has a specific close combat role for the guard... like ogryns or special characters. I'd find that the BS 4 is most representative of infantry that train with their weapons constantly, have targeters, etc. equipment that compensates or augments their shooting ability.

I like the idea of selectable mode weaponry, allowing for either greater volume of fire, or lower volume, higher strength, more penetrating shots, not because it would be particularly fluffy, but moreso because it would make the unit more versatile on the field. Regarding armor, I find that the 4+ save is sufficient and needs no change there. Lowering prices for special weapons may be a good idea, however, I'd like to see only mission specific weapons provided, and should be increased to 3 per squad (IE - meltas only allowed for an antitank doctrine, whereas, plasma or flamers for anti infantry doctrines).

I think that the storm troopers should be allowed to select from 4 doctrines, the standard airborne, standard Recon but with flamers as their spec weapons, and pinning rules on their weapons; perhaps a tank hunter specific variant that can take infiltrate and a tank hunter benefit, and perhaps an "assassination/sabotage" doctrine, allowing for deep strike, a demo charge, and a combination of plasma or melta weapons and meltabombs for taking out a specific unit.

In order to balance these perks, perhaps a rule such as the lone wolf's killpoint rule should take effect, where the IG player will gain benefit from the unit actually achieving their mission objective (kill x units, go to X objective, destroy X tank, etc.) and or counting against the IG player where they do not achieve their goal. This should all be at standard cost.

My two cents anyway. Thoughts?

makes sence to me

Ok, I LOVE Storm Troopers with all my heart, so I pretty much agree to everything that the OP stated for changes. As for the people who say that these changes would have them stepping on the toes of Space Marine units, remember that they are Elites and still almost twice as costly as regular units in our codex. To those worried about a ST spam, that means that any viable list will probably not even have all 3 Elite slot choices filled, to save points on everything else that an IG list needs, like Vendettas, and Melta-vets.

Stormtroopers should be significantly cheaper and (and I know this is heresy to a lot of newer players) shouldn't have AP3. That has never had support in the fluff, and has never even been hinted at in any earlier incarnation of the rules. It makes no sense as anything except a gimmicky anti-MEQ hand-out from the design team, and I think contributes significantly to the overpricing of STs.

Bring them down to around 8-10 pts. The selective fire modes idea is a great one IMO - I would go with something like 24" S3 AP4 Rapid Fire as their basic fire mode and 6" S4 AP3 Assault 1 to represent cranking up their weapons in close range (and even then the AP3 is just a concession to players who have gotten used to the AP3 - I'd rather make it 6" S4 AP4 Assault 2).

Aside from the large body of fluff and previous rules that had their weapons NOT punching straight through power armor, remember that even though stormtroopers are highly elite and they have the best small arms available to the guard, they are called so in comparison to the guard, not to the (incredibly rare and far more powerful) space marines. The ability for a stormtrooper's weapon to easily negate the most common armor in the Imperium (flak) and even go through carapace armor, valuable armor worn by important people and other elite units, would be a Big Deal. They are the best of the best of normal humans, their rules only seem too weak when they cost the same as Space Marines and fight MEQs 90% of the time on the tabletop. Cut their points in half and bring their weapons in line with the fluff and I think they'd be worth taking.

@CalgarsPimpHand I started the IG with their 5th edition codex, so I "grew up" with AP3 Hot-shots. However, I would gladly accept your changes as as long as all their other options remained the same. From what I have read of the fluff, I agree that there is no mention of hellguns punching through power armour. Carapace maybe. They really are just a contrived way to include MEQ killers.

One question I had though. If STs are supposed to be Elite SpecOps soldiers, why can they only take 2 special weapons when veterans can take 3? I think this should've been switched. Also, with all their high-tech gear, why can't Sergeants take power fists?

acekevin8412 wrote:

One question I had though. If STs are supposed to be Elite SpecOps soldiers, why can they only take 2 special weapons when veterans can take 3? I think this should've been switched. Also, with all their high-tech gear, why can't Sergeants take power fists?

Probably because ST are very organized. After all if Space Marines are the emperor's finest, why are they limited to a heavy weapon and a special weapon in their bread and butter squads? Why not x4 special weapons/etc? Vets on the other hand are those who probably dont have authorization, they have their "ways" of getting additional requisition.

Also generally IG with powerfists is a bad idea unless you have more than 10 bodies protecting it

I am a huge fan of storm troopers, and always thought they could be a bit better, I allways mount them in valkyries anyways so I wellcome the dedicated transport Idea. Also I love the Idea of the Missions and the loe wolf draw backs that resipsa stated. In my opinion, I think that fluff and rules wise, the storm troopers would do best if they have a specific mission to follow, choosen after deployment. Here's what I think:
sabbotage: stromtroopers gain Infiltrate and tanks hunters USR. if they fail to destroy or immobilize an enemy tank, they count as *2 kps for a mission that uses Kps
Air calvery: storm trooopers who deepstrike roll 1 less scatter dice to land
Dynamic entry: the turn they enter the board, the storm troopers hellguns gain assault 2. (cant think of penalty)
Forward recon: storm troopers gain scouts and move through cover Usr. (maybe a rule to make artilliry acurate, as recon is meant to rely info)

DakkaDakka wrote:

Actually, whole Elite chapter of IG is underpowered (or rather overpriced) and rarely sees play. But every unit has distinctive role:

Ogryns are melee experts (WS 4 S 5, lots of attacks and wounds) (so Stormies have WS 3)
Ratlings are snipers (BS 4, sniper rifles in standard, Stealth and Infiltrate USR) (so Stormies don't have Sniper Rifles)
Psykers serve as crossover of artillery and tricksters. (so Stormies don't handle Demo-Charges)
in the result Storm Troopers are remote Spec Ops Strikers.

Generaly, I'd think that cost 14 pts/model (full squad 140 pts) would be fair, with some (maybe not all) of following improvements.

Of course, improved stat-line would be nice, however i don't think it would be good change.
S, T and I, are beyond consideration, 3 is human level, let's keep it. W is the same case.
Attacks. Well, they already have three attacks on charge (sergeant even four) plus assault shot from HS Pistol. Enough.
I hesitate about WS and Ld, because they share background with Commissars, and these have (basic, not Lords) WS 4 and Ld 9, on par with *Company Commanders*. That's because Commissars are drawn from toughest and meaniest Storm Troopers or Storm Troopers are those who failed to become Commissars.
Only stat improvement they should get is Ld 8 (+1 for Sgt). I think they're far more determined fulfilling orders and less concerned about safety than Vets. And in 4th ed Stormies had base Ld 8.

Five-men strong squad can have Plasma Pistol and 2 Plasma Guns = 3 specials. That's much. I miss only option to include two Heavy Flamers Unfair is that cost of special weapon both in vet and storm squad is the same, while stormies are giving back much more potent weapon. Maybe some discount?
I wouldn't also change hotshot weapons - they're already three times more efficent than standard guardsman's lasgun against MEQs, but I would add more equipment options.
Like free swap of HS Lasgun for Hellgun. According to books it has greater rate of fire and dissipation along with power than std lasgun. Let's say 12'' Assault 3 S3 AP6. Analogical to vet's shotgun for sweeping mobs of light infantry.
Why so short range? Because they assault enemy - soften target with guns first, then enter the fray.
Since 4 ed Stormies lost also melta-bombs, left only with frag and krak grenades. It would be fair to give them Auxillary Grenade Launchers (krak), 12' range, one shot, trading power for range. Great piece of equipment of Elysian Veterans from IA 3/4. Stormies could get this for swaping HS Pistol (-1 attack) and maybe some points.

Special rules.
'Glory boys' get orders from higher command, and thus have more independent nature. This could be reason, why they're so despised In game terms they wouldn't receive orders but will keep one in effect continously, depending on kind of mission.

Surgical Strike = grants the squad INFILTRATE universal special rule and all team members get
TARGETERS (their weapons count as twin-linked against monstrous creatures and vehicles)

Recon & Sweep = grants the squad SCOUTS and MOVE THROUGH COVER universal special rules and all team members get
MOTION SCANNERS (when squad shoots at enemy unit it must reroll successful cover saves-vs light infantry)

Storm Objective! = heh, jump packs would be great here (grant DEEP STRIKE and jump infantry status) but overpowered option. According to Gaunt's Ghosts guardsman issue jump packs exist... as an alternative usual DEEP STRIKE+re-roll scatter dice, with addition of SURGICAL ENHANCEMENT (Squad may always regroup, instead of buffed IA version - we're just emulating orders).

Many ideas may overlap with mentioned, but it only proofs the way st should be improved

IMO, stormtroopers are good as they are. They were made that way. Logic lies behind every stat. S4 AP3 weapons? no, these guys do NOT have Inferno Bolters.
WS3, because guardsmen are supposed to die as soon as the enemy gets into melee, so close combat skill is not a priority.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can give all stormies, including the sergeant, LD8 though. but them being as psychically strong and brave as Marines?....
Think twice first.

I don't mind Strength and AP 3, but they at least need a boost to range.

WS4/I4 - With humans this should be left to dedicated close-combat fighters only, such as the Crusaders. While trained in many different aspects, STs mainly rely on shooting and should still be treated as such on TT. Having a CCW with pistol translates that they're better prepared/trained enough for close-combat over most other IG units anyway.
AP3 - Yes on Hot-shots, but no on Hellguns. Helguns should be an optioned swap for Hot-Shot Rifles though, acting roughly as a polar opposite - S3-4/AP4-5 at 30", Rapid Fire. Hellrifles (C:GK) could be 36", but Heavy to be consistent.

Sorting out the Stormtroopers is easy otherwise. The main problem is their expensive cost. Take out the Special ops abilities and make them purchasable options instead. Bring STs down to 10-12pts to compensate.

do away with storm troopers and let vets upgrade to hellguns, that way vets become the "mr potato head" of guard

or change the stormtroopers armor to 3+ and leave them at current cost, i dont see a reason why superior armed and armored troops in guard cant have tougher armor. besides carapace armor is basically just a breastplate, these are stormtroopers give them half-plate or banded mail

Sorry but no, Stormtroopers do not have better armour than SM Scouts and CERTAINLY not armour comparable to power armour.

why would they not have better armor than scouts? sm scouts have carapace armor if im not mistaken, and that armor doesn't cover their whole bodies, they have better Toughness to compensate but storm troopers are covered head to toe in armor, esplain it to me lucy.

Lucy wrote:Both the scouts and the Stormtroopers have Carapace Armour. Neither of them have full-covering armour. The Adeptus Astartes also have a way higher quality of gear than any other Imperial branch barring the Inquisition, Officio Assassinorum and the Adeptus Custodes.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Lucy wrote:Both the scouts and the Stormtroopers have Carapace Armour. Neither of them have full-covering armour. The Adeptus Astartes also have a way higher quality of gear than any other Imperial branch barring the Inquisition, Officio Assassinorum and the Adeptus Custodes.

i loled, i can understand the fluff reasons, but looking at the models stormtroopers just look more armored that's justification enough for me, plus thye are elites, i see no real problem with high cost units that are elites and not scoring to have a decent armor save. they are still t3 and die to over half the weapons in the game

dreadfury101 wrote:

Lucy wrote:Both the scouts and the Stormtroopers have Carapace Armour. Neither of them have full-covering armour. The Adeptus Astartes also have a way higher quality of gear than any other Imperial branch barring the Inquisition, Officio Assassinorum and the Adeptus Custodes.

i loled, i can understand the fluff reasons, but looking at the models stormtroopers just look more armored that's justification enough for me, plus thye are elites, i see no real problem with high cost units that are elites and not scoring to have a decent armor save. they are still t3 and die to over half the weapons in the game

4+ is still a decent armour save. And, going by your logic, they shouldn't have a 3+ save because Marines look more armoured. Let's put it this way: a Necron Warrior has a 4+ armour save and yet you want a Stormtrooper to have 3+?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
4+ is still a decent armour save. And, going by your logic, they shouldn't have a 3+ save because Marines look more armoured. Let's put it this way: a Necron Warrior has a 4+ armour save and yet you want a Stormtrooper to have 3+?

Armour is irrelevant in the modern game anyway. there's so many AP2/3 weapons around, and cover saves abound.

If you give stormtroopers 3+ sv then i will double facepalm.
Stormtroopers are not space marines; if you reason that it doesnt need to be like the fluff for game balance, then you should know that it IS already different from the lore. If we wanted to have it fluff-true, normal marines would have stats like a warboss in mega armour (but faster) and stormtroopers would look like gretchin beside them. They have AP3 weapons, be happy with that. It is enough to give my poor marines a headache.

I can't see reason why ST should have 3+ sv. Carapaces at 4+ are optimal choice between cost, protection and weight (grav-chuting...). It stops bolter fire, anyway.

Geee... I thought that *all* SM have whooping Ld 10 ;p On the other hand, IMHO spec ops chief has as independent nature as company commander, so Ld 9 for their sergeant seems plausible.

I think, that stormies should have enhanced choice of equipment, just as I stated in post above. They're forming special squad, so need special toys.
How about double Heavy Flamer entry? Aux. Grenade Launchers? Continuous Order effect (Bring it Down, Fire on my target, Get back to fight) as a part of mission?

Combi-GL's on hellguns for an extra few points.
Also some fancy grenades like tear gas (/eq: Int 10 on the charge) or smokes (same as on vehicles, but for infantry).
The ability to take the Deathwatch stabilized Heavy Bolters would be nice as well.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Suspensor heavy bolters would give them a punch (range 18", str5 ap 4 assault 3).

dreadfury101 wrote:do away with storm troopers and let vets upgrade to hellguns, that way vets become the "mr potato head" of guard

or change the stormtroopers armor to 3+ and leave them at current cost, i dont see a reason why superior armed and armored troops in guard cant have tougher armor. besides carapace armor is basically just a breastplate, these are stormtroopers give them half-plate or banded mail

Kasrkin models are wearing full plate, never mind half, they have shoulder pads, legs armour, gauntlets etc. They don't have 3+ armour because because power armour suits are supposed to be rare relics not general issue equipment. Giving them power armour would break the guards theme as a relatively rational force like a modern army. These are SAS or paratroopers; not knights in shining armour.

Regular range guns would be good, I mean it certainly doesn't look like a carbine to me. You could maybe boost its str to 4. Then you'd probably be good if you didn't change the points. Three special weapons. I suppose since they forgo heavy equipment that would be fine, they certainly have more right to it than veteran squads IMO. Stormtroopers probably aren't taken since its easier to spam plasma guns in veteran squads for anti marine duty.

Scouts have less armour on their bodies but this is just down to the limits of abstraction. If you had an RPG you could say the scouts don't have armour on legs but in the game this can't actually be done. Just like there is no distinction between soriatus armour and marine power armour (I think in FFG marine has two extra points of armour on the chest and one extra overall). The armour is broke down into broad catagories.